48 meets mid-20's

[kindalazy]

Wow

I was bored at the office, so read through this entire thread, and learned a valuable lesson: How grateful I am for my friends. I don't have many of them, just a handful, but we're close.

Reading through, the "general" tone of advise that was offered (I'm sure useful) were "generally" the sharing of personal events/stories/situations, that happened to the advise "giver", rather than actually listening to the person who requested the advise (JeffG).

This is called bias.

It's the same thing as selecting a juror for a murder trial, who's family were murdered (perhaps a bit dramatic, but, you get the point )

When we're either asking or giving advise, we usually start by ASKING more questions, and, getting answers to our concerns, that way.

For example, why did JeffG feel flattered? Did he look especially good that day? Did he make the grocery store laugh? What was the context of the conversation? Does the clerk receive a tip if he's super friendly? Through asking more questions, you get to the answer, rather than applying personal biases.

We are all different, there are always 2 sides to a story, and each situation is unique. There never is a "right" or "wrong" answer.

Thanks for the great read!

 

[dogboy44]

What?

I know you are not suggesting that anyone offer advice on a subject outside their realm of their personal experience, I think they have names for that too. This seems to be the basis for the responses here, members sharing their personal experience. No matter what outside influences or suggestions are present, the decision is ultimately the choice of whomever is making it. No one here as identified themselves as a certified counselor or therapist, so assuming that role might be construed as presumptuous. If you are merely doing a PSA for making an informed response, JeffG's recap of the whole scenario is more that enough to holla back to.

For the record, answers to the sample questions you pose are as follows:
For example, why did JeffG feel flattered?
- Because he is 48 being chatted up by a hot 20yr old.
Did he look especially good that day?
- Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but it sounds like yes.
Did he make the grocery store laugh?
- Irrelevant
What was the context of the conversation?
- Their eyes spoke, the words are an excuse to continuing looking at each other, c'mon you know this stuff!
Does the clerk receive a tip if he's super friendly?
- Grocery cashiers are not tipped, but this one asked for a date, not a tip.

Through asking more questions, you get to the answer, rather than applying personal biases.
- yeah ok.

If you read thru any of the various threads here where advice is sought, the answers are straightforward and based on experience.
I don't see this one as any different, although you will fine many here an authority on Kelvinator, that knowledge would pale in comparison to the collective understanding in affairs of the heart.

There are several of us here that have a few years on you, soon you will catch up no doubt at some point and one day will stop off for milk and bread.
You find yourself across the counter from someone who, on a ordinary day, would be a fantasy, whose seductive wild eyes burn a hole right through you. There will be no need for you to report back with how you looked or felt, we already know.

 

[panthera]

What the Fcuk?

OK, speaking as a monogamous man here -

I am so thoroughly disgusted by the raised finger hypocritical false tone of moral authority that some of the ladies are raising here against Jeff I want to vomit. That level of bitchy, back-stabbing nastiness may be de rigueur in some queenly circles of the Joan Crawford at her faded bitchiest type, but it has no place here. Jeff has turned to us, his online friends, to ask our opinions and advice. He did not ask us to pass judgment.

How dare anyone presume to tell him his relationship is a lie?!

We have firm data to show that some men are built monogamous, some men are incapable of it and everybody else falls somewhere in the middle. If Jeff, who obviously does love his partner has the balls to bring what is obviously an important question in his life to us, who died and appointed us gods to tell him how he must live his life? That goes for the monogamous group and the open group, equally. It is none of our gottverdamtes business!

I, for myself, settled the question decades ago. I am monogamous, I want a monogamous relationship. Basta. It would be dishonorable, disingenuous, low down rotten, dirty and cheating to impose myself and my love on someone who is not capable of monogamy. I could never face myself in the mirror, were I to put such a horrible condition on someone I love. Either you are or your aren't. That is not a moral judgment, that is a fact. You can have a monogamous relationship that is not true, you can have an open relationship that is true - I have seen both kinds.

Monogamy has nothing to do with being true to someone. Nothing.

Being true to your partner means discussing the question of open or closed before you commit to each other and then living up to your agreement. If Jeff's partner is OK with him having occasional sex outside of their relationship, great. Wonderful. It ain’t for me, but I am not Jeff nor am I married to him.

I took an awful lot of shit back in the pre-Aids world of San Francisco for being monogamous. It was so not done. Well, it was me. It is me. I will not stand by here quietly and let you hypocritical bitches dump your shit on Jeff for living a life he and his partner have agreed to! Just because it is not my life or your lives, does not give us the right to pass any kind of judgment.

Personally, I suspect there is more than just a tad bit of jealousy here. Jeff, at an age which for the repressed self-loathing queens is roughly equivalent to what 85 years old is for heterosexuals, has attracted the eye of a sweet young thing.

That's what's at the bottom of this - you want it, can't have it and so don't want him to have it, either.

Christ on crutches what a bunch of hypocrites.

Jeff, honey, you and your partner need to do what is right for both of you. Would I leave my partner if he cheated on me? No. I would be hurt, hurt beyond words. But I would fight and fight and find it in me to forgive him. He wouldn't, so that is an easy thing for me to say. But this isn't about him, it is about me. This is not about us, it is about Jeff and his partner.
I can not expect anyone to fulfil all my needs in life. What a horrible burden to put on someone! I can chose to give and take with grace what is offered. More, there is not. Hell, not even my cat expects me to be the be all and end all of her days. At least, not after I've made her breakfast and dinner...
Sheesh.

 

[perc-o-prince]

Oh gosh!!!

I guess my passion got the best of me :-( Because of other circumstances I was pretty fired up when I replied. My apologies for upseting anyone.

JEFF... Please don't think that I was attacking you. I wasn't. Nor was I judging you. I merely made an observation and felt duped since other facts regarding the "relationship" were brought forth in a later post. This is MY fault for attemting to reach out to someone who I do not know. I think that what you are doing is just fine. I think that I made that clear. I have no right to make any judgement. What I had a problem with was that you appeared to be someone who was possibly going to make the worst mistake of his life and the Holden Caulfield (Catcher in The Rye) in me made me want to reach out and keep you from falling over the cliff. I didn't know you well enough to know that you and your partner have an open relationship. Had I know that then I would have said "Good show. Go for it!" I must have looked pretty silly to all of you for writing such a empassioned initial response. I don't like feeling silly. I take relationships very seriously. Monogamy takes work.

Jeff, I hope that you can understand what was in my heart and how I came to feel hurt. Anyone who knows me would know that the last thing that I would want to do is hurt someone or see someone hurt. Please forgive me if I hurt you I have never been nor ever be a "bitchy queen". A gay man who leads with his heart who makes a human mistake now and then? YES. Guilty as charged )

Kevin, I understand how you may label me as a bitchy queen because of the time that I took you to task for saying that you wished someone (I can't recall who) would come down with a terrible cancer. I was furious as you can understand. Being a cancer survivor I am greatly offended by such nonsense. I have never had any problems with you before or after that and I wish to continue that track record if you would. I must, though, correct you on something. I will quote you...

"Monogamy has nothing to do with being true to someone. Nothing. Being true to your partner means discussing the question of open or closed before you commit to each other and then living up to your agreement. If Jeff's partner is OK with him having occasional sex outside of their relationship, great. Wonderful."

Perhaps this is your definition BUT the true definition is, "The habit of pairing with or having but one mate." The Greek translation is monos = single and gamos = marriage. This is taken from the Funk & Wagnalls New Comprehensive International Dictonary of the English Language. I'm not making it up. Open relationships are fine. I have many friends who are in such relationships but they refer to themselves as being in an OPEN RELATIONSHIP. Not monogamous! Not a problem.

"Christ on crutches what a bunch of hypocrites." Kevin, don't ever call me a hypocrite again!! I was never being hypocritical. I made an observation and I tried to help by giving advice based on my own moral beleifs and PRACTICES. I made a mistake due to lack of information...shame on me. I made the mistake and have apologized for it. I try not to make many mistakes on this forum as I don't like to "stir the pot" with people that I like. I know that you have never been afraid to stir the pot and I fully expect you to lambast me for this but I have strong shoulders. I can take it though I hope that I won't have to.

"Personally, I suspect there is more than just a tad bit of jealousy here." Again, I think not!! You wouldn't believe how happy I am with my life at this point. I have a great family, a job that brings me great satisfaction (I help people who are sick and/or dying), I have the home of my dreams (my family homestead), the car I've always wanted (Mercedes), and a partner of 20+ years who I am still in love with and trust with my life. Best of all I have my health back!!! HOW COULD I BE JEALOUS? I feel like the richest man alive.

Again , Jeff, I'm sorry for any hurt that I may have caused you. Good luck with your dinner date and I hope that you have good, safe fun )

Rich

 

[panthera]

Well, Rich

It takes a big man to say he is sorry and I respect that.

Now, to the whole question of monogamous and true (and faithful, and committed, as long as we are at it.)

I have already mentioned that I am monogamous. This is my nature. Was really raked over the coals for that back in the day, and still occasionally have insecure gays attack me for it. They are clueless. We have some very firm evidence now that about 17% of all men are monogamous by nature. I am one.

It is no virtue, it is biology.

Now, as to being true - I think either I did not express myself very well or, perhaps you didn't quite understand me. Or maybe the difference comes because I think in more than one language. We have seen before that you and I have different experiences of cultures and you suggested I was, perhaps not as acquainted with as wide a variety as you. In that case, you might well have been right. Here, perhaps, the situation is different.

It is thus: To be monogamous means, as you defined it, single union. That's me. But, there are other aspects to a union, a marriage, which matter equally or more.
First, being true. To be true means to stand by your partner even when one of you is in deep shit. It is easy to be monogamous with a guy as good at sex as my honey is. But good sex is only one part of a relationship. What about standing with him when he loses his job, or has a potentially fatal disease? You have proven that you and Chuck are true and I value that far higher than even monogamy. You can have a monogamous relationship which is hateful and hurtful. I know, I stayed sexually 'true' to my German lover for 13 months after we stopped having sex because I hoped beyond hope we could patch it up. Monogamous, but not loving.

See the difference? Have I explained myself better now?

OK, faithful. Faithful means believing in your partner's sincere commitment to the relationship even when others are doing their best to tear you apart. It means keeping your word and living the assumption that he is keeping his without having direct proof.

Committed or commitment means the lifelong marriage vows I hope and pray I can someday say with my love - that I place his happiness and welfare first as these are necessary adjuncts to my own happiness and well-being. That is also the best definition of love I can find in English.

I think in German and in English. There is hardly a higher complement one may pay someone in the German language than to say: Du warst mir immer Treu. That doesn't mean you didn't sleep around, it means you stuck by me and believed in me even when it wasn't in your personal interest to do so.

We are both roughly the same age and we have both, unfortunately, had to deal with terrible losses. I am very forthright in stating my feelings, nothing makes me more furious than fundamental Christians who use their political influence to attack homosexuals.

Where we differ, and that greatly, is that I am very upfront about my feelings. I am not always proud of my feelings and it is not good to be as furious as I was at the point.

I have nothing against you, truly. We have both seen that there is a certain group here on AW who really go out of their way to try to force people they don't like off the blog. Much of what was said to Jeff in this thread echoed some of that hatred and I responded by defending him - too often I have been the intended victim of it, and no, not by you.

You and your partner have survived rough times. I hope they are past.

Truly, I wish you peace.

 

[~sudsshane]

Pass the barf bag........

"I am so thoroughly disgusted by the raised finger hypocritical false tone of moral authority that some of the ladies are raising here against Jeff I want to vomit"

Ohhh, please...... Keven!!

Spare us the dramatics, and look hard at yourself in the mirror, and pray it doesn't crack.!!
While I have never met Rich personally, we have corresponded through email, and I can say with every confidence, that he is a thoroughly good,caring, non judgmental person. He is also a long standing, well respected, member of this club, unlike yourself. You are always right there to fan the flames of controversy and cause trouble. Why Robert puts up with you is beyond me, but this is his site, and if he chooses to let you remain a member, that is his choice, and his alone.

As for Jeff, I think he knew when he posted this thread that there would be people who would appear to be judging him. He is a big boy and in the end, he is going to do what he wants to do. As the old saying goes, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"

 

[~sudsshane]

"We have both seen that there is a certain group here on AW who really go out of their way to try to force people they don't like off the blog. Much of what was said to Jeff in this thread echoed some of that hatred and I responded by defending him"

So, tell me Keven..Where do you see any hatred directed at Jeff in any of these responses? He asked for opinions and he was given them. Plain and simple!

 

[jeffg]

Rich (and everyone else), if anyone needs to apologize for anything, it's me. If I had two brain cells to rub together, I would have made this original post in a more appropriate forum. And I should have not used the M word (monogamous) without properly qualifying it.

It's clear from your initial response that you're an extremely caring and generous person. So I'm not at all surprised that you landed a partner who's happy to stay completely monogamous. Personally, I believe Keven... in my experience 17% sounds about right for the number of men who are hard-wired for monogamy. The rest of us aren't.

 

[panthera]

Yeah,

Jeff, I remember reading that in an Italian publication and thinking, damn - need to see that in a language I can read without stopping every other word for the dictionary. Then it showed up in USA Today and boy, was I relieved. Don't even have to read that newspaper out-loud, something they rather frown upon in the public library.

I don't think it means someone can use it as an excuse - either for self-righteousness or for cheating on one's partner.

Nor do I think it means 83% or so of the male population is incapable of it. All it means is that those of us who want one man shouldn't be harassed as we were by so many in the gay community for so long. Of course, that has changed over time, too.

Interestingly, most European governments have now come to the conclusion that somewhere around 15-20% of the homosexuals will eventually be marrying, more than that, not. Makes sense, now that the pressure on straights to marry and have 3.7 kids, two dogs and half a bunny rabbit is gone, we are seeing fewer marriages of force and many more of love.

 

[mikepaquette]

I Am

One of the 17% of the men & proud of it. Mike