'57 GE Combination Fridge: The Physics of Frost?

[rp2813]

I've noticed something about the accumulation of frost in the separate freezer of my Combination.   As most of you know, this is my beer and soda fridge and not my daily driver.  Up until recently, I didn't store much in the freezer besides vodka and a few miscellaneous items, leaving most of the freezer's cubic footage empty.  I didn't access it on a regular basis, and it could usually go at least six months before needing a defrost.

 

But then I bought enough frozen stuff that I ran out of room in the kitchen side-by-side (I clearly need to take an inventory), so the Combination's freezer became packed full.  Even though I haven't been accessing it any more often, now that almost all usable space is occupied, the Combination's freezer has accumulated frost at a rate I'd say is at the very least twice as fast as before.  The door closes completely -- not up against anything -- so it isn't an issue with how the gaskets are sealing.

 

I have also noticed that the fresh food section seems to be warmer than before.  Beer and soda aren't as cold.  Ambient temperatures have been consistent before and after the change in freezer contents.  I've bumped up the cold control, something I haven't had to do since replacing it a few years ago.

 

Is there a scientific explanation for this phenomenon?  Is it as simple as the mass of frozen items in the freezer keeping it colder and the compressor running less?  But then why is the freezer frosting up so much faster?  And I thought the cold control took its cues from the serpentine coil -- not the freezer temp.

 

I'm really glad this isn't my main fridge, or I'd be having to defrost it on a monthly basis.

 

[mixguy]

Accumulating Frost

No you know why we value frost free refrigerators over self defrosting and manual deforst models. This was a once a weekor every two weeks chore. We are spoiled having this convenience, worth the added cost of electricity.

 

[rp2813]

Russell, you're preaching to the choir.  I would never have anything but a frost free model in my kitchen.  There are those here who insist manual defrost refrigerators are better and last longer.  I'll agree that there's less to go wrong with them, but the convenience factor of frost free far outweighs any of the claims about attributes a manual defrost fridge offers.

 

I had a '70 Whirlpool frost free top freezer model and it never had a problem.  I bought it used in 1990 for a garage fridge and it was still going strong some 43 years after it was built when, after passing it along to Dave's daughter and son-in-law, they unloaded it in 2013 because there was a newer fridge that came with the house they bought.  I think that's a pretty good argument for the longevity of frost free models that were built when quality was still a priority.

 

The Combination is my drinks/overflow fridge.  I don't access the freezer that much, and since I hadn't been storing much in the freezer, frost never took over the contents.  That has changed now, and every time I remove an item I can't avoid scraping some frost off along with it.

 

Ideally, I'll find a GE Combo that's a bit newer, frost free, bottom freezer, with swing-out shelves.  They're still out there, functioning as they should, after +/- 55 years.  The '57 will be up for grabs if that ever happens.  It's a nice fridge, for what it is.  It runs quietly, has some modern exterior treatments, and its revolving shelves have spoiled me.  I'd be sad to see it go and would make sure it found a good home, but wouldn't miss dealing with frost accumulation one bit.

 

[g3bill]

MY TAKE ON THE QUESTION?

I've found with my round top as the frost builds I may need to go up on the temp number to keep it cold in the freezer section. The thicker the frost the worse or warmer it gets being an insulator between the coils and food space. As soon as I defrost, its back to proper freezing temps at the lowest number and seems to cycle less often?

When theres near nothing in my freezer I turn off the frig over night and usually fully defrosts with a near full try of water, I put a note next to frig handle that its off. Sometimes if I let frost go to long the hair dryer needs to come to the rescue with a paint stir stick

 

[tomturbomatic]

Frost is an insulator so it inhibits the transfer of temperature between the evaporator coil and its surroundings. Do any of you remember the saying that boiling water froze faster than cold? It doesn't except in a freezer with frost because the hot water melts the frost under the ice tray so it sits on the freezing cold of the evaporator coil.

 

[cadman]

I run a '65 non-frost-free GE here as the daily driver, and while the frost can sneak up on you, I rarely defrost in the winter, and only every few months in the summer. If it's required more frequently you might have a bad door seal.

Something that really speeds things along is the use of a shop vac. Pull the paper filter, vacuum the ice crystals off the freezer walls and you're good to go in only a couple minutes. -C

 

[rp2813]

Bill and Tom,

 

I don't think the situations you've provided apply to my Combination.  The fridge's only cold control's sensing tube clips to the serpentine coil in the fresh food section.  I don't think the freezer temp has varied much but regardless, the freezer temp has no influence over the cold control.

 

This is why I'm puzzled by how the fridge is behaving.  More contents in the freezer should keep it colder in there longer, and since the cold control is located in the refrigerated section, that shouldn't be impacted at all.  So why would the fridge section get warmer with a fuller freezer, and why would a fuller freezer frost over faster?  This scenario makes no sense to me.

 

Cory, I like your shop vac suggestion!

[this post was last edited: 2/28/2015-23:36]

 

[rickr]

Ralph, something has to be wrong with your refrigerator. I only have to defrost the 54 Hotpoint in the basement (used as an overflow fridge) once every couple years, and the 48 GE in our kitchen twice per year. I wonder if your door gaskets might be leaking?

 

[rp2813]

Rick, the gaskets are for sure suspect.  I have new ones for both doors from Larry (RIP) but haven't bothered to install them.

 

I still don't get why the freezer would accumulate frost faster when packed nearly full with contents.  The gasket is the same one that was on there when the freezer was mostly empty and frost wasn't building anywhere near as fast.

 

[rickr]

Wow! Well, crazy Ralph. Cannot understand why the unit should build up more frost when it is full. I did not know that Larry at Modern had passed away. That is too bad! He was always so helpful, and fun to talk with. He will be missed by many people here, for sure! RIP Larry, and thanks for your help!

 

[jeff_adelphi]

Freezer temp----

 "The fridge's only cold control's sensing tube clips to the serpentine coil in the fresh food section.  I don't think the freezer temp has varied much but regardless, the freezer temp has no influence over the cold control."

 

The refrigerant flows first thru the freezer coils then on to the serpentine coil. The freezer cools down first before the serpentine coil can get cold enough to trip the thermostat.

 

[tomturbomatic]

They used to test the condition of the door gasket on our '51 Frigidaire by closing the door on a dollar bill. If the bill could be pulled out with the door closed the gasket had to be replaced.

 

[rp2813]

Jeff, thanks for the info.  I think that helps to explain things.

 

Tom, I've heard about that dollar bill test and have used it in the past, but that was on an older Combination with adjustable latches that could be repositioned to provide a tight seal again.

 

By the way, does anyone know the status of Modern Parts at this point?

 

[mixguy]

Accumulating Frost

My best guess is gasket not sealing or having high humidity or a combonation of both. the more you have in the freezer, the less air space for frost to develop.
Not trying to insult your intelligence in any way. The amount of electricity consumed by a manual defrost model vs. frost free is substantial. I would not want to inherit my mother's 1954 Hotpoint refrigerator, I am very pleased with my 2008 Frididaire frost free model with icemaker.

 

[travis]

Ralph,

 

I would suspect the gaskets are failing.  Why not check the freezer gasket, like Tom suggested?  I think this full freezer vs. empty freezer might just be a coincidence.

 

In regards to all the comments about power usage  or water usage, just use whatever appliance that pleases you and pay the darn bill.  I have read a number of articles about energy efficiency of whatever appliance.  I am still going to use what I want.  I want to smile at my appliances.  I really am not concerned about my carbon footprint.  I am a lot nicer and more civilized than many others.  I don't litter, I say please and thank you, etc.  Is a little bit more power going to hurt anyone?  Mind you, the ones you need to watch have their door open and the A/C on.

 

[suburbanmd]

Could the food in the freezer be releasing water vapor? That would cause frost, of course. Condensation of vapor releases heat, so maybe frost formation (from whatever cause) is raising the freezer temperature.

 

[rp2813]

Well stated, Travis!

 

I think I'll have to plan on changing the gasket next time I defrost.  I'll keep fingers crossed that doing so will slow down the accumulation of frost.

 

As far as moisture content or water vapor, I only put already frozen packaged items in this freezer.  Once in a while the bottle of vodka might sit on the bar for a few hours before going back in the freezer, but I wipe the condensation off of it first.