'61 Kenmore discouragement...

[roto204]

Hi all!

I'm working on my '61 Kenmore, and absolutely cannot get the transmission and spin brake to come out of the centerpost of the base.

Now, keep in mind, the centerpost is way rusted, and I'm not beyond guessing that there may be an irregularity that's keeping the tranny from sliding out. But everything on the agitator shaft and spin tube that I've seen so far is shiny.

I can get the whole assembly to slide about three inches, and then it binds. Or, I can partially dismantle the spin brake, and slide the transmission out a little further still. But then it stops.

I don't want to go pounding on things I shouldn't...any recommendations? Can someone summarize the proper steps for removing this assembly? Maybe I'm forgetting something.

Do the little rubber seals up top of the shafts need to come out?

The transmission is peeing oil everywhere from where the agitator shaft enters from the top--that just started during this attempted removal operation.

Needless to say, I'm somewhere between disheartened and horrified. I guess the next question is what kind of oil goes in the transmission...but that's for later--first I have to get the darned thing out.

Recommendations, anyone? I greatly appreciate any tips you have to offer.

 

[coldspot66]

Hey Nate,

It will help to get the tranny separated from the spin tube/brake. Unclip the cotter pin that holds the "yoke" to the stud on the tranny and remove the spring on the other end where the spin cam bar passes through the stud with the adjustable nut on it.

Then try to pull toward you in a quick motion. The agitate shaft is spring loaded so try rotating the tranny as you pull. Once you get that out the spin tube can be rotated back and forth when it won't pull out anymore. It is prolly binding on the centerpost bushings in the top of the centerpost. If you can't get it out you can, as a last resort, insert some sort of pipe thru the top of the centerpost and tap it out. Be aware that there are 2 "ears" at the top of the spin tube that mate with the tub block.
Email me if you need further help.

 

[filterflo]

Hi Roto, thats quite normal for them not to slide out easy. (Right LBcarguy?) First stand the washer upright, and HEAVILY spray WD-40 or some kind of lubricant down both the agitator shaft AND the spin shaft. Then lay it on its front again. REMOVE the transmission from the spin tube/clutch assembly by unhooking the 3" tension spring and the little U clip and 1/2" spring on the clutch post. You will have to push/pull many times on the tranny to get it to slide out from the spin tube, but you may notice that it comes a little farther out each time. Then, oil/lube up the spin tube again from the TOP of the machine so that the lube runs down and into the bearings. Lay it on its front again, and pull/push/turn/pull/push/turn the spin tube assembly. Again, you will notice that is will come just a little farther out each time. Its hard work, and Ive done it many times. There were very few that would not come out, it just takes a little muscle, oil, and stamina. Keep trying you will get it. Hope this helps..............Jimmy

 

[fixerman]

It is sometimes easier to remove the transmission first, if that comes out any easier. To remove the trans from the spin tube assembly. First put some WD40 or similar on the agitator shaft on top by the upper bearing in case that is corroded. If there is corrosion there it might be wise to clean the shaft as best you can for easier removal from the spin tube. Also lubricate the spin tube on top while you are at it. Also remove as much corrosion as you can from the top of the spin tube. Now remove the clutch holding device (a spring and clip on older models, a plastic clip on the later models) from the rod that goes through the clutch actuator plate opposite the actuator rod. Then remove the spring from the clutch actuator rod. Then the wires that operate the wigwag. It should then slide out from the spin tube. If may take some work because the shaft tend to stick on top where you lubed it but still may be a bear. If you successfully remove the trans from the spin tube, then you can access the spin tube easier without the trans in the way. Even with the trans removed they can be very difficult to get out. You just have to keep working it until it comes free. If you cannot get the tube out this way, You can try grinding or breaking off the end of the spin tube on the bottom, then disassembling the clutch and brake assembly and try removing the rest of the tube from the top.
I have worked and sweated through this job many times so I sympatise with you. Keep at if, eventually it will come out. Good luck.

 

[filterflo]

BTW, when I helped Mike rebuild his Lady Kenmore in Long Beach, we had this same problem and it took both of us working on it alternately about 30minutes to get the spin tube out. I dont recommend pounding on it, as that gets things out of kilter........and dont worry about the oil coming out, that can be addressed later.......its nothing serious really.....

 

[roto204]

You guys are great!! Thank you so much. You definitely qualify as my heroes of the day!!

I followed your instructions and, upon investigating, found the shafts to be pristine, which was nice. The bushings and goodies in the centerpost appear okay, which seems to imply that the centerpost exterior does not reflect the interior (thank goodness).

I was also able to put things back together, and degreased as much of the tranny as I could before installing the belt. It was a mess, though, so I had to be careful to not let oil touch the belt.

Hopefully I did that part okay, because the instructions I was able to find were confusing to an extent (well, to the extent that I'm a newbie at this). The part about the T-bearing at the bottom seemed bizarre, and I'm hoping I didn't mess that part up.

Things look taut and back together. But I think I lost about a half cup of oil. I take it KM/WP trannies don't like to go upside down? (I'm hoping the drain/refill process doesn't require inversion, then...)

In any case, is there a good way to check my work? Maybe slide the wig-wag in and out of their cam bars to make sure that the transmission still agitates and spins predictably?

And then, what's the process for refilling the transmission (and what should I use?). The oil feels very viscous--definitely different-feeling than motor oil.

I'm going to try and check my work tomorrow evening...then hopefully I can proceed onward.

Last question--what's a good way to make sure the motor is tensioned properly? I reattached the pump and bits to make sure the belt went through all the pulleys, and pulled back firmly on the motor mount while tightening the bolt. The new belt is a lot less slack than the old one, but I'm hoping I have sufficient tension on it.

Thank you again for all your help--this is the hard part, and I think--with the "powertrain" intact--I can manage the rest a lot more easily

--Nate

 

[scott55405]

Nate, I am so freaking proud of you!! I know you've messed with Sears machines to an extent before, and between that and with the help of a lot of great people here you have just jumped into this whole thing head-first and have given it your all. You are doing a great job and you should feel good about that! I was amazed at how well you got it going that first day, the way it was acting up at first and all.

This is *really* going to be a wonderful machine when you're through with it, and you know I will be there to help you celebrate its rebirth!

 

[fixerman]

Your machine probably has a different style tee bearing than shown in your instructions which caused confusion. The older Kenmores had a different style than the newer models. Yours probably has a brass tee bearing with a steel collar and set screw. The newer ones were replaced by an all plastic Tee bearing with a steel ball locating the bearing in the hole that used to be used for the set screw on the older ones like yours.

The spring and seal inside the transmission are bad. Thats why it leaked grease. Replacing the seal isn't entirely necessary for it to work but you probably want to remove the trans and replace the spring/seal kit. You can change the oil while you are at it. You can buy the correct oil or I have used heavy motor oil or automotive gear lube without problems. Maybe other memebers have another suggestion.

Did you relube the spin tube and agitator shaft bearings with turbine oil before reassemly? You squirt some oil in the bearing cavity between the bearing and the upper seals and above the lower bearing before reassembly.

The belt should have about 1/2 inch play in it. Just push on the belt from the back opening. It should deflect about 1/2 inch.

Use Lithium grease on the cams on the bottom and where the plungers meet the cams.

Also make sure the pump arm goes in the slot on the cam bar when reassembling.

 

[fixerman]

You can check for binding and to see if the machine agitates and spins by moving the plungers in and out while turning the belt to check your work.

 

[roto204]

May as well do things correctly...

Thank you for all the info and help, fixerman.

I didn't lubricate the bearings, so I'm debating going back and taking it apart again and getting everything that needs getting. I figure that I'll need to replace that seal that leaks, then, since doing it halfway is silly if it could cause problems in the future (and my goal is to not have to do this again for a while).

Do you have a part # or source for that seal and spring?

My main worry is that, if I let it go and tip it upside down to refill the oil, I'll just be back to square one, having to play Keystone Kops to contain the oil that leaks as I try to refill it, and all the while try to avoid soaking the new belt in oil. So, I figure I may as well do the whole thing.

Thanks again for all your help!

--Nate

 

[fixerman]

The seal and spring kit is Whirlpool pn 285672. The Gemline No is LP925. The Whirlpool part you can probably get at your local appliance parts store or you can go to Sears website. Also Gemline online and there are other online sources. Just do a search. Here is Gemline's site.

http://www.gemline.biz/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51F4606474&rnd=6222190&rrc=N&affl=&cip=&act=&aff=&pg=prod&ref=LP925&cat=&catstr=

 

[fixerman]

And Sears. Just type in the whirlpool part no.

http://www3.sears.com/

 

[roto204]

Thanks very much, Greg. I'll look into that tonight

 

[roto204]

Thanks...and what's turbine oil? :-D

Thanks, Scott--you're such a sweetie and a trooper. Yes, I have had some amazing help from great people to help me get this far! I'm just hoping at some point that I hit the bottom of the "to do" list on this machine :-D

Greg, a couple of questions floated to the surface of my mind --first, what's turbine oil? (Sorry, it's a new term to the uninitiated .)

Also, to replace the spring and seal, do you have to take apart the rest of the transmission? If so, will I need to plan on replacing the seal that joins the case halves?

Just curious so I can be better prepared

Thank you very much again for all your help!

 

[fixerman]

I'm not sure exactly what turbine oil is made up of but it is called for whan replacing the bearings. You can buy it at appliance parts dealers.

Yes, the trans case must be split. You can go buy a new gasket or I have used a bead of silicone on occasion instead. If you use silicone, go easy. About a 1/8' bead is all you need. Apply the silicone to one surface then reassemble the two halves. Snug the bolts and wait until the silicone sets up a bit, maybe an hour or two, then tighten them securely.

 

[westytoploader]

Good luck Nate...hope you have better luck than I had with my '68! Keep trying though, and don't give up like I did!!

When I pulled the inner tub, the outer tub was encrusted with calcium, and the centerpost was rusted through in some spots. Also, the donut seal was hard and non-existant. Would have needed a whole new outer tub to fix this...but decided it wasn't worth it in the long run. Beginners like me seem to have better luck with used machines and not ones that have been "run into the ground", so to speak. This one was the latter...

 

[roto204]

Thanks, Greg--if I can wander into the parts place and ask for the oil, that'll be just fine. (I'll have to look at it when I get some--how interesting!)

I'm all for buying the gasket--do you have the part number on that too? :-D (*sheepish grin*--sorry to use you like a parts manual, but I really do appreciate the help--when I can find the parts number stamped on things, I go to it--but hidden things like the spring and seal can be toughies)

If it's NLA I'll take your silicone advice. I'm guessing the Ultra Blue RTV that I have will do, probably?

Hiya Austin! I'm trying like the dickens not to get frustrated by this--I guess in the end it's all worth it, because all the pesky, wear-prone parts will be replaced. But it's hard to not miss the glitz of instant gratification This is the first major restoration project I've undertaking, and I'm finding some satisfaction in going slowly and not taking a hammer to things (and believe me, I've had some moments...).

My '61 is in comparable shape to your '68. The centerpost rusted so badly that it compressed the donut seal and split the tub, and has rusted through in a spot. However, the inside of the post is shiny and everything rotates freely, so I have knocked and brushed off all the rust, and ordered a new donut seal. I'm going to reapply some porcelain patch to the tub, fix the split, and probably end up siliconing the bejesus out of the donut seal, because it simply won't fit like it was meant to around a centerpost that is so incredibly irregular. I don't think it's an impossibility, though--I just need to repair the centerpost as best I can and apply some serious rust sealant.

Someday, though, she will be destined for a new centerpost/base assembly--this one just can't go on forever. But it's not totally hosed

I'm just taking the nuisances as minor obstacles for now--and trying to stay focused on the goal ;-)

In the meantime, if you won't give up on your 1-18, I won't give up on my Kenmore

Take very good care, and thank you again, guys. I can't tell you how much help you've been--both technically and in the moral-support arena

--Nate

 

[scott55405]

Nate, I just got to thinking---maybe you could drop Lighted Controls a line, I believe it's his friend that has the identical machine to yours. If the model number is visible on his (I tried to read it on yours but couldn't) you could get it then you can pull up the parts list on the Sears website, with the "exploded" pics and all the numbers and information, if it would be handy for reference.

 

[fixerman]

Gasket is 95089.
After clening the centepost of rust, you can apply some Por15 (I think thats the name. Someone help me here) The rust stopper stuff used in car frame restoration. Robert used plumbers epoxy on his Apex dishwasher to repair the tub. That should work.

If Roberts 57 LadyK restoration is still up on this site, you might want to check that out for some tips.