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A Miele Auction With a Whiff About It
- Thread starter launderess
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I'm assuming that its 50Hertz
Since that machine isnt available otherwise in the US.
I dont know how the electronics and speed sensor etc will cope with the difference in frequency.
Since that machine isnt available otherwise in the US.
I dont know how the electronics and speed sensor etc will cope with the difference in frequency.
None of the appliances shown in the auction are offered for sale in the United States by Miele USA. Miele USA does not import Miele fridges or microwaves either.
Also the rating system for washer/dryer efficency is the one used in parts of the world, but not in the United States.
L.
Also the rating system for washer/dryer efficency is the one used in parts of the world, but not in the United States.
L.
As we say in Da Hood, "They just fell off the truck yesterday!"
worst of all...
Our "220 Volts" here in Europe is single phase 230V AC 50Hz and has nothing, zip, nada, zilch in common with the 2-phase 240VAC 60 Hz circuits you folks use.
Laundress is sooooo right - whoever buys these (admittedly wonderful machines) and hooks them right up...
Will blow their little electronic brains to smithereens and quite possibly have a nast shock hazard and fire to go along with it.
This is dangerous, unsafe and frightening.
Liebher, by the by, has sold commercially in the US...
Our "220 Volts" here in Europe is single phase 230V AC 50Hz and has nothing, zip, nada, zilch in common with the 2-phase 240VAC 60 Hz circuits you folks use.
Laundress is sooooo right - whoever buys these (admittedly wonderful machines) and hooks them right up...
Will blow their little electronic brains to smithereens and quite possibly have a nast shock hazard and fire to go along with it.
This is dangerous, unsafe and frightening.
Liebher, by the by, has sold commercially in the US...
They won't fry anyone or create a serious shock hazzard, however they won't function properly on a US supply.
*ALL* European appliances are designed to be safe when used on a non-polarised supply i.e. the line and neutral pins can be reversed. This means that they're also quite ok on a US-style "Split phase" 220V supply except for the frequency and the fact that the voltage may not be exactly correct.
Schuko (European style grounded plugs) are not polarised and don't need to be.
A US supply would be 60Hz which could wreak havoc with the electronics, transformers and induction motors in the appliances. You could end up with all of the motors running a little too fast.
50Hz transformers are also wound slightly differently to 60Hz versions. This could cause fairly big problems.
On top of that, all of the water fittings would be metric and to euro standards.
Using the machine on a US supply would also void the warrenty.
---- The CEE 7/7 Plug + CEE 7/4 outlet ----
The plug can go in either way. Ground contacts are located at the top and bottom. The outlet is also recessed, making it impossible to touch the pins when inserting/removing the plug and drastically reducing shock hazzard. Rating 16A 230V 50Hz.
This is the defacto standard in Europe.
The french system is slightly different but 100% compatable.
*ALL* European appliances are designed to be safe when used on a non-polarised supply i.e. the line and neutral pins can be reversed. This means that they're also quite ok on a US-style "Split phase" 220V supply except for the frequency and the fact that the voltage may not be exactly correct.
Schuko (European style grounded plugs) are not polarised and don't need to be.
A US supply would be 60Hz which could wreak havoc with the electronics, transformers and induction motors in the appliances. You could end up with all of the motors running a little too fast.
50Hz transformers are also wound slightly differently to 60Hz versions. This could cause fairly big problems.
On top of that, all of the water fittings would be metric and to euro standards.
Using the machine on a US supply would also void the warrenty.
---- The CEE 7/7 Plug + CEE 7/4 outlet ----
The plug can go in either way. Ground contacts are located at the top and bottom. The outlet is also recessed, making it impossible to touch the pins when inserting/removing the plug and drastically reducing shock hazzard. Rating 16A 230V 50Hz.
This is the defacto standard in Europe.
The french system is slightly different but 100% compatable.
well, not quite
Actually, the water fittings would most certainly be English Common - never saw a Miele yet that wasn't. Maybe in the UK and Eire it's different, but on the continent we use 3/4" and so on for kitchen and laundry equipment.
If the house were hooked up properly and if the wiring were redone correctly and if we are talking about 3-wire single-phase mid-point neutral and not the weird stuff you still find very commonly in many rural areas of the US - like where I come from - then yes, mrx, you probably won't see things frying or creating a shock hazard. You could only speak with such certainty if you had never lived in the backwoods of the US like I have. A purely resistive load would not be troubled, but I have my doubts regarding an inductive loading coupled with the usual dirty spikes to be found in American electrical systems...you are speaking of a theoretically "ideal" split-phase and reality in the US is not the least teeny-tiny bit like this. In an era of poorly protected electronics I shudder to think what would happen there.
Oh, wait - we just had Philips recalling several LCD TVs for exactly that problem in the 'States.
I have read reports of city folks moving on to farms, thinking the genuine 3-phase hookup was the standard 220V two live relative to a mid-point neutral and running one live leg out to the neutral/ground. Oh, heavens, I see you frowning...the wild leg...
Actually, the water fittings would most certainly be English Common - never saw a Miele yet that wasn't. Maybe in the UK and Eire it's different, but on the continent we use 3/4" and so on for kitchen and laundry equipment.
If the house were hooked up properly and if the wiring were redone correctly and if we are talking about 3-wire single-phase mid-point neutral and not the weird stuff you still find very commonly in many rural areas of the US - like where I come from - then yes, mrx, you probably won't see things frying or creating a shock hazard. You could only speak with such certainty if you had never lived in the backwoods of the US like I have. A purely resistive load would not be troubled, but I have my doubts regarding an inductive loading coupled with the usual dirty spikes to be found in American electrical systems...you are speaking of a theoretically "ideal" split-phase and reality in the US is not the least teeny-tiny bit like this. In an era of poorly protected electronics I shudder to think what would happen there.
Oh, wait - we just had Philips recalling several LCD TVs for exactly that problem in the 'States.
I have read reports of city folks moving on to farms, thinking the genuine 3-phase hookup was the standard 220V two live relative to a mid-point neutral and running one live leg out to the neutral/ground. Oh, heavens, I see you frowning...the wild leg...
Well you all can stop fretting about American 220v power supplies and Miele. Word on the street is Miele is due to launch an 8kg washer along with matching dryer (gas and electric) later this year, and the washer will run on 120v/60hz.
IIRC there is an 8kg Miele already on sale in Oz,and the USA model will be a close cousin.
L.
IIRC there is an 8kg Miele already on sale in Oz,and the USA model will be a close cousin.
L.
Don't the electronics work on low voltage DC?
I dont think an internal rectifier cares if the input is 50Hz or 60Hz.
Similarly I dont think there is a difference in US or Euro 220V- Both are 1 phase. Except perhaps that here both conductors are "hot" instead of one being a grounded (earthed)one.
IIRC, there is an additional risk (with two hot leads) that a ground-fault will cause the machine (or parts of it) to begin operating [by receiving 110v] rather than short-circuiting and blowing a fuse.
I dont think an internal rectifier cares if the input is 50Hz or 60Hz.
Similarly I dont think there is a difference in US or Euro 220V- Both are 1 phase. Except perhaps that here both conductors are "hot" instead of one being a grounded (earthed)one.
IIRC, there is an additional risk (with two hot leads) that a ground-fault will cause the machine (or parts of it) to begin operating [by receiving 110v] rather than short-circuiting and blowing a fuse.
European 220v/240v comes from one line, whereas on the other side of the pond it is two. This is why one cannot use a most voltage converters to run say an American 220v dryer or washer.
It's mostly because the US machine won't necessarily use 220V for everthing. Some components are wired Live-Neutral (110V) others from Live1 to Live 2 - 220V.
So, if you did manage to hook your US dryer up in Europe, the heating elements would be quite ok at 220V but you might find the 110V motor and controls didn't like it too much
So, if you did manage to hook your US dryer up in Europe, the heating elements would be quite ok at 220V but you might find the 110V motor and controls didn't like it too much
irishwashguy
Well-known member
I did ask Miele this question when I bought my appliances...
The cycles are different and will NOT be able to opperate correctly. I belive we are 50 cyc, and EU is 60 cyc, if someone knows better, please fill in the blanks. She told me that if I were to take my machines overseas, they would not work right.i would be better off to buy new in the EU. i just wonder what this person who won the aution is going to do when they find out that they have been taken for a very expensive and rude awakening............Here is a thought,....these are not really even here, he or she payed 4000 for pics of machines? Those do not need any special wiring at least??!
The cycles are different and will NOT be able to opperate correctly. I belive we are 50 cyc, and EU is 60 cyc, if someone knows better, please fill in the blanks. She told me that if I were to take my machines overseas, they would not work right.i would be better off to buy new in the EU. i just wonder what this person who won the aution is going to do when they find out that they have been taken for a very expensive and rude awakening............Here is a thought,....these are not really even here, he or she payed 4000 for pics of machines? Those do not need any special wiring at least??!
Ritchie,
'tis the other way 'round. North America: 60Hz. Europe: 50Hz.
Until recently, UK: 240V, Continent: 220V.
Theoretically it is 230V, 50Hz, single phase with separate ground to earth everywhere now.
But, of course, that is not quite right.
We use non-polarised plugs over here - you can see the pictures Mrx was kind enough to post above - and in the UK they have not only great big gigantic enormous clunky old fashioned plugs - but each one has a built in fuse, so if something goes wrong there is a very good chance of the fuse preventing serious damage to the appliance or the wiring in the walls. Makes the g.b.g.e.c.o.f. plugs worth it and then some. Much faster reaction time than the circuit breakers have.
On the down side, we still have lots of "classic bridges" running here, where the chassis ground is nothing but the neutral line.
Since there is always some idiot who reverses wires - and, it being AC, this does not necessarily cause a problem - this leads to a supposedly safely grounded appliance being a horrible danger.
You can, though, get most US stuff to work happily over here as long as it is not dependent on a 60Hz line. Many motors run more slowly, clocks of course - well, forget mechanical ones. The opposite is not quite true. Motors which are dependent on the frequency for their speed run too fast; other elements which are sensitive to frequency usually will tolerate a slightly lower one better than a higher one.
Interestingly enough, the 60Hz frequency is seen (outside North America) as being quite dangerous to the body in case of electrical exposure. The 50 Hz is moderately less so. Of course that 230V does more than make up the difference...
One nice thing about 230V is that line cords can be half the diameter as needed for 120V at the same level of power consumption. Makes electrical things easier to use.
The 230V system also is more stable under loading than the 120V system - but that has more to do with the fact that the North American system has been neglected more or less since the 1950's.
Oh - nearly forgot. The UK uses bayonnet-based light bulbs. These have lots of advantages over the continent, where we (basically) use the Edison base (ja, ich weiß, die sind nicht ganz identisch...)
Thanks to the European Union, the folks who gave us the properly bent banana, it is theoretically illegal for a home-owner to even change out a light bulb...this must be done my a master electrician. Like the other 99.99% of the nonsense which comes out of Brussels, even we Germans ignore that.(But we manage to feel guilty about it.)
'tis the other way 'round. North America: 60Hz. Europe: 50Hz.
Until recently, UK: 240V, Continent: 220V.
Theoretically it is 230V, 50Hz, single phase with separate ground to earth everywhere now.
But, of course, that is not quite right.
We use non-polarised plugs over here - you can see the pictures Mrx was kind enough to post above - and in the UK they have not only great big gigantic enormous clunky old fashioned plugs - but each one has a built in fuse, so if something goes wrong there is a very good chance of the fuse preventing serious damage to the appliance or the wiring in the walls. Makes the g.b.g.e.c.o.f. plugs worth it and then some. Much faster reaction time than the circuit breakers have.
On the down side, we still have lots of "classic bridges" running here, where the chassis ground is nothing but the neutral line.
Since there is always some idiot who reverses wires - and, it being AC, this does not necessarily cause a problem - this leads to a supposedly safely grounded appliance being a horrible danger.
You can, though, get most US stuff to work happily over here as long as it is not dependent on a 60Hz line. Many motors run more slowly, clocks of course - well, forget mechanical ones. The opposite is not quite true. Motors which are dependent on the frequency for their speed run too fast; other elements which are sensitive to frequency usually will tolerate a slightly lower one better than a higher one.
Interestingly enough, the 60Hz frequency is seen (outside North America) as being quite dangerous to the body in case of electrical exposure. The 50 Hz is moderately less so. Of course that 230V does more than make up the difference...
One nice thing about 230V is that line cords can be half the diameter as needed for 120V at the same level of power consumption. Makes electrical things easier to use.
The 230V system also is more stable under loading than the 120V system - but that has more to do with the fact that the North American system has been neglected more or less since the 1950's.
Oh - nearly forgot. The UK uses bayonnet-based light bulbs. These have lots of advantages over the continent, where we (basically) use the Edison base (ja, ich weiß, die sind nicht ganz identisch...)
Thanks to the European Union, the folks who gave us the properly bent banana, it is theoretically illegal for a home-owner to even change out a light bulb...this must be done my a master electrician. Like the other 99.99% of the nonsense which comes out of Brussels, even we Germans ignore that.(But we manage to feel guilty about it.)
irishwashguy
Well-known member
Oh my...
Well, sometime, I will need to go there and see it in person for myself. i have been out of the country once, and that was to Canada.I am courious about alot of things in the EU and surrounding Europe.It seems to me that they think and plan for the future. It is not like they manage to elect poloticians that can put full size feet in to their mouths sinaltaniosly, and still manage to play a good golf game. They are looking at all phases of life and safely for their people,and really thinking outside of the box.I bet they still have papertrails overthere.I would like to live there sometime,maybe in Ireland or England.i am of Europan decent 3rd generation.I could see if my Mieles could work there.
Well, sometime, I will need to go there and see it in person for myself. i have been out of the country once, and that was to Canada.I am courious about alot of things in the EU and surrounding Europe.It seems to me that they think and plan for the future. It is not like they manage to elect poloticians that can put full size feet in to their mouths sinaltaniosly, and still manage to play a good golf game. They are looking at all phases of life and safely for their people,and really thinking outside of the box.I bet they still have papertrails overthere.I would like to live there sometime,maybe in Ireland or England.i am of Europan decent 3rd generation.I could see if my Mieles could work there.
Designgeek
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2004
- Messages
- 865
Master electrician to change a light bulb eh?
I think I'll stay here and be glad we have the Second Amendment as a final protection against that sort of stuff.
Sorry folks, not to go sounding jingoistic or anything, but I'd sooner eat crawly bugs than live in a place where the safety standards are based on assuming the public has an average IQ that's lower than the power supply frequency.
I think I'll stay here and be glad we have the Second Amendment as a final protection against that sort of stuff.
Sorry folks, not to go sounding jingoistic or anything, but I'd sooner eat crawly bugs than live in a place where the safety standards are based on assuming the public has an average IQ that's lower than the power supply frequency.
There is a lot of "hot air" and "euromythical" nonsense created by the British tabloids in particular about the E.U. There are absoltuely no regulations at an EU level that require a master electrician to change a light bulb!! The UK tabloids tend to be viciously anti-EU for no particular reason other than it sells papers to bash Brussels and laugh at "the frogs", "crouts" and other friendly neighbours. They've stopped "paddy-bashing" as it's now illegal under anti-racial hatred laws.
The other problem is that some local government officials and other agencies often implement petty annoying regulations and blaim them EU requirements when, in reality, they're just poorly implemented rules made up at a local level. It's a nice way of passing the buck though.
Here's a list of "euromyths" http://europa.eu.int/unitedkingdom/press/euromyths/index_en.htm
and their explanations.
European electrical regulations are generally controlled at a National / State level with harmonisation of standards being co-ordinated by CENELEC (the European electrical standards body) which is gradually, bit by bit, harmonising the various European electrical wiring codes.
As for British/Irish fused-plugs. The reason they're fused is nothing to do with improved safety. In fact, a modern circuit breaker will usually react faster than a slow-blowing fuse in a plug. Even a 32A breaker will usually react to a fault much faster than the plug's internal fuse.
In the UK, sockets (outlets) are wired on "ring" circuits i.e. the circuit breaker or fuse on the distribution panel is connected to to either end of a circuit that runs in a ring serving a large number of outlets. You could describe it as a "power bus". This circuit is rated at 32Amps, so in order to protect appliance cords from over loading it's necessary to have fuses in every plug top.
This system has some advantages in that it allows a large number of socket-outlets to be installed using less cable. However, it's arguably not as safe as radial circuits, particularly since as the cables are fed from both ends, they allow the use of much thinner wire than would be permitted in a radial.
The problem is that, if the ring is broken by a botched DIY job it can continue to work as 2 over-fused radials creating a fire risk! Also, if you connect several very heavy appliances to one side of the ring close to the end, you can create signifigant heating problems too as the load isn't necessarily drawing power equally from both ends.
In Ireland, this system's generally not used, even though we do use the UK-style plugs. Outlets are generally served by 16 or 20Amp radials.
In general in the EU, RCD (GFCI) protection's required on *ALL* outlet circuits. This has dratically reduced the number of electric shocks and also tends to reduce fire-risk as shorts to ground and arc faults are usually picked up in a fraction of a second and the power's cut to the outlets.
Ireland's required this kind of protection on ALL outlets since 1980. It's achieved with one or more RCDs on the panel rather than individually protected sockets.
The other problem is that some local government officials and other agencies often implement petty annoying regulations and blaim them EU requirements when, in reality, they're just poorly implemented rules made up at a local level. It's a nice way of passing the buck though.
Here's a list of "euromyths" http://europa.eu.int/unitedkingdom/press/euromyths/index_en.htm
and their explanations.
European electrical regulations are generally controlled at a National / State level with harmonisation of standards being co-ordinated by CENELEC (the European electrical standards body) which is gradually, bit by bit, harmonising the various European electrical wiring codes.
As for British/Irish fused-plugs. The reason they're fused is nothing to do with improved safety. In fact, a modern circuit breaker will usually react faster than a slow-blowing fuse in a plug. Even a 32A breaker will usually react to a fault much faster than the plug's internal fuse.
In the UK, sockets (outlets) are wired on "ring" circuits i.e. the circuit breaker or fuse on the distribution panel is connected to to either end of a circuit that runs in a ring serving a large number of outlets. You could describe it as a "power bus". This circuit is rated at 32Amps, so in order to protect appliance cords from over loading it's necessary to have fuses in every plug top.
This system has some advantages in that it allows a large number of socket-outlets to be installed using less cable. However, it's arguably not as safe as radial circuits, particularly since as the cables are fed from both ends, they allow the use of much thinner wire than would be permitted in a radial.
The problem is that, if the ring is broken by a botched DIY job it can continue to work as 2 over-fused radials creating a fire risk! Also, if you connect several very heavy appliances to one side of the ring close to the end, you can create signifigant heating problems too as the load isn't necessarily drawing power equally from both ends.
In Ireland, this system's generally not used, even though we do use the UK-style plugs. Outlets are generally served by 16 or 20Amp radials.
In general in the EU, RCD (GFCI) protection's required on *ALL* outlet circuits. This has dratically reduced the number of electric shocks and also tends to reduce fire-risk as shorts to ground and arc faults are usually picked up in a fraction of a second and the power's cut to the outlets.
Ireland's required this kind of protection on ALL outlets since 1980. It's achieved with one or more RCDs on the panel rather than individually protected sockets.
it was a joke
Once again we see that there is absolutely no meeting of minds possible between German humour and the Islands version of the English language.
Sheesh.
This particular euromyth came about because some electricians in Germany really did want to forbid homeowners even the most routine of tasks such as replacing light switches or electrical outlets and figured the EU would support them, given their leaning towards making absurd laws.
As for the fuses...well, guess the places I've stayed at in the UK where they blew before the circuit breakers did must have all been just exceptions set up just for me. Something I'd trust my Scottish cousins to do, if 'tweren't so expensive.
))
Once again we see that there is absolutely no meeting of minds possible between German humour and the Islands version of the English language.
Sheesh.
This particular euromyth came about because some electricians in Germany really did want to forbid homeowners even the most routine of tasks such as replacing light switches or electrical outlets and figured the EU would support them, given their leaning towards making absurd laws.
As for the fuses...well, guess the places I've stayed at in the UK where they blew before the circuit breakers did must have all been just exceptions set up just for me. Something I'd trust my Scottish cousins to do, if 'tweren't so expensive.
))vivalalavatrice
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2005
- Messages
- 1,031
Italian as well...
Here there isn't any rules on how to make up your electric circuit, I mean national rules/laws. Strange, isn'it?!?
The only rule electricians follow is the ground plugging, and that's because there's the "communitary directive", all sockets which has been ground plugged we call them "A norma CEE", not for those who haven't been, which are dangerous however!
Then you can make your household circuit in the way you want and you need, ring-crcuit is not so used to avoid overloading, and so generally the most are tree-circuit: the line reaches horizontally each room-box then from each room-box the cables reach every socket/brakerer/light point.
Here however we use 230-240V and running at 50Hz, the amperage depend on what you plug on: 16/25A over 2000W is used for electric oven, washers, dishsashers, dryers, while 10A untill 2000W for the whole rest.
I think it's good European Union makes laws and rules for the whole community. Maybe not a good thing in the country where people feel free to do as they have always been doing, but HERE IS NOT LIKE THAT OF COURSE! Seems that Italian are frightened by rules in some aspect, and that's why I hate Italian society! Less-bad there are European laws, otherwise here there would only be pre-judgements... It seem almost forbidden either to discuss only about prostitution, drugs, street-artits...Aspects in which there is regulation in the other European countries.
That's all)
Diomede
Here there isn't any rules on how to make up your electric circuit, I mean national rules/laws. Strange, isn'it?!?
The only rule electricians follow is the ground plugging, and that's because there's the "communitary directive", all sockets which has been ground plugged we call them "A norma CEE", not for those who haven't been, which are dangerous however!
Then you can make your household circuit in the way you want and you need, ring-crcuit is not so used to avoid overloading, and so generally the most are tree-circuit: the line reaches horizontally each room-box then from each room-box the cables reach every socket/brakerer/light point.
Here however we use 230-240V and running at 50Hz, the amperage depend on what you plug on: 16/25A over 2000W is used for electric oven, washers, dishsashers, dryers, while 10A untill 2000W for the whole rest.
I think it's good European Union makes laws and rules for the whole community. Maybe not a good thing in the country where people feel free to do as they have always been doing, but HERE IS NOT LIKE THAT OF COURSE! Seems that Italian are frightened by rules in some aspect, and that's why I hate Italian society! Less-bad there are European laws, otherwise here there would only be pre-judgements... It seem almost forbidden either to discuss only about prostitution, drugs, street-artits...Aspects in which there is regulation in the other European countries.
That's all
)Diomede
