About Coal Furnaces and Boilers
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Burning Coal & Smoke
From hanging around steam RR forums one learned despite the fact "foamers" like to see coal burning locomotives spew great clouds of smoke, any good engineer and or fireman knew when that was happening it meant inefficient burning of fuel. The solution was to make required adjustments to the "boiler" (which is really all a steam locomotive is), to get things were they needed to be.
Being as the above may, things also very much depended upon what sort of coal the RR could purchase,and or how much they were willing to spend.
From hanging around steam RR forums one learned despite the fact "foamers" like to see coal burning locomotives spew great clouds of smoke, any good engineer and or fireman knew when that was happening it meant inefficient burning of fuel. The solution was to make required adjustments to the "boiler" (which is really all a steam locomotive is), to get things were they needed to be.
Being as the above may, things also very much depended upon what sort of coal the RR could purchase,and or how much they were willing to spend.
Right on Launderess!
I've spent a fair bit of time around some steam locomotives and those knowledgeable about them. Although a steam heating boiler is a different beast, the firing of a steam locomotive is a pretty "hands on" endeavor even if there is an automatic stoker. A good fireman will watch and listen to the exhaust stack to evaluate the condition of the fire and the locomotive's power output and make necessary adjustments. Coal wasn't (and still isn't) free and firemen were encouraged and trained by their employers on how to fire as efficiently as possible.
Coal can be wonderfully effective,
Dave
I've spent a fair bit of time around some steam locomotives and those knowledgeable about them. Although a steam heating boiler is a different beast, the firing of a steam locomotive is a pretty "hands on" endeavor even if there is an automatic stoker. A good fireman will watch and listen to the exhaust stack to evaluate the condition of the fire and the locomotive's power output and make necessary adjustments. Coal wasn't (and still isn't) free and firemen were encouraged and trained by their employers on how to fire as efficiently as possible.
Coal can be wonderfully effective,
Dave
IIRC
When a caol burning steam loco is giving off clouds up the smokestack, it can mean that the fire/coal is literally being *sucked* up the flues and spew up and out into the air. This not only means wasted coal, but much of what is in the firebox isn't being burned, thus the RR is literally throwing money up in smoke.
Always thought that one simply chucked coal into a furnace/boiler, but know now that is not the case. Be it good fireman on a RR, or anyone else that does the thing well, coal is shoveled into the firebox in a very particular way.Yes sir, one must learn how to *read* and *listen* because the boiler/furnace will tell you what wants doing.
When a caol burning steam loco is giving off clouds up the smokestack, it can mean that the fire/coal is literally being *sucked* up the flues and spew up and out into the air. This not only means wasted coal, but much of what is in the firebox isn't being burned, thus the RR is literally throwing money up in smoke.
Always thought that one simply chucked coal into a furnace/boiler, but know now that is not the case. Be it good fireman on a RR, or anyone else that does the thing well, coal is shoveled into the firebox in a very particular way.Yes sir, one must learn how to *read* and *listen* because the boiler/furnace will tell you what wants doing.
"Until rather recently, and may still be for all I
know, in order to become a janitor of a New York City school, one had to
be certified and pass exams to operate coal fired boilers/furnaces.
Think by now most of them have been swapped out for gas or oil, if the
entire building hasn't been shut or torn down."
The position is known as a "Fireman" believe it or not. I don't know if everyone on building staff had to know how to operate a boiler, but I am pretty sure even today the position exists and is generally held by the person responsible for making sure the heating is in order.
I recall having been in a basement dealing with a large number of derelict Commodore 64's in a school in Brooklyn - PS 177K I think it was, and having been quite surprised to see the building still being heated with coal. There was a massive room under one wing of the building just for coal storage, and an system of overhead rails used to transport hanging cars of coal to one of several boilers. The whole operation was pretty clean and tidy. Outside on the street were large garbage can sized ashcans with coal ash in them, ready for DSNY. This would have been as late as 2003.
Nice warm building. Wish my office had been there!
know, in order to become a janitor of a New York City school, one had to
be certified and pass exams to operate coal fired boilers/furnaces.
Think by now most of them have been swapped out for gas or oil, if the
entire building hasn't been shut or torn down."
The position is known as a "Fireman" believe it or not. I don't know if everyone on building staff had to know how to operate a boiler, but I am pretty sure even today the position exists and is generally held by the person responsible for making sure the heating is in order.
I recall having been in a basement dealing with a large number of derelict Commodore 64's in a school in Brooklyn - PS 177K I think it was, and having been quite surprised to see the building still being heated with coal. There was a massive room under one wing of the building just for coal storage, and an system of overhead rails used to transport hanging cars of coal to one of several boilers. The whole operation was pretty clean and tidy. Outside on the street were large garbage can sized ashcans with coal ash in them, ready for DSNY. This would have been as late as 2003.
Nice warm building. Wish my office had been there!
Vapor/Vacuum
Coal fired steam boiler systems.
Here ya go
Coal fired steam boiler systems.
Here ya go
Bell & Gossett | Xylem US
www.bellgossett.com
Efficiency.
As I wrote before (I think) there's a guy in the heatinghelp community who is experimenting with a modulating gas burner on a new steam boiler to mimic the effects of a coal fire dying down. This modulating burner, combined with vacuum vents would allow the system to go into a vacuum and let the water boil and steam at much lower temperatures. The result would be that the system could run in a more subdued fashion most of the time and when more heat is needed, the burner could increase output, giving a quicker response and the pipes would already be hot (the pipes wouldn't take heat from the steam to come up to temperature, instead they would be warm enough to let the steam pass while losing much less energy).
It's just some very old technology being looked at for a second time,
Dave
As I wrote before (I think) there's a guy in the heatinghelp community who is experimenting with a modulating gas burner on a new steam boiler to mimic the effects of a coal fire dying down. This modulating burner, combined with vacuum vents would allow the system to go into a vacuum and let the water boil and steam at much lower temperatures. The result would be that the system could run in a more subdued fashion most of the time and when more heat is needed, the burner could increase output, giving a quicker response and the pipes would already be hot (the pipes wouldn't take heat from the steam to come up to temperature, instead they would be warm enough to let the steam pass while losing much less energy).
It's just some very old technology being looked at for a second time,
Dave
ptcruiser51
Well-known member
"Blue Coal"
Is the kind/brand my parents got when we lived in the 'hood until 1959 when we moved to the 'burbs. We had a coal furnace in the basement that operated hot water radiators, and the fire always had a blue cast to it. There was a series of small-link chains that went across the basement ceiling and up the stairs to our 1st floor landing. These were to operate the damper but never, ever worked right. My OM always adjusted the mechanism by hand at the furnace. Clinkers always got prompt attention along with much %$#@! The coal man would come with "a ton" and set up chutes down the alleyway to the bin, and the truck bed would go way, way up in the air and cause a hell of a racket accompanied by much dust. Us kids would scavenge the "nuts" as we called them to write on the slate sidewalks (hopscotch diagrams and the occasional bad words). A couple shovelfuls in the ayem kept the furnace going most of the day; shake down the ashes at night and "dampen" the fire for the night. Ashes went into a can for pickup once a week, unless it snowed then we scattered them in the alleyway and sidewalk. My aunt lived around the corner, and had a gas-on-coal stove in the kitchen. Also a stove in the parlor connected to a flue. It looked like a big console radio. Both burned "pea" coal. Both familes had a big tank in the kitchen next to a burner that looked like a rocket ship. The burner had coils over a gas jet that would heat up the cold incoming water and deposit it via a pipe that went to the top of tank. You'd feel the tank to tell when it was hot enough. When my OL was preg with my sister, she loved to do dishes and lean against the tank to get relief for her aching back. Of course, this would be brutally hot during the summer so someone would crank up the hot water in the middle of the night and put a fan in the window so as not to be getting heat stroke during the day. The hot water would usually be enough for the whole day (it was a really big tank). Our radiators from the coal stove (one to a room) had little torpedoes on the side that would give off steam sometimes (I don't know why) and humidify the room. My OL put pie tins underneath them to catch the condensed water. Rust! The furnace had a plumbing pipe that the OM would turn on every week or so to add water to the system. It had a glass tube on the side that would tell you when it was full. We had an old-fashioned gas stove on tall legs that was over where the furnace was. My cat always slept under there. And my OL had lines in the basement, too, to dry clothes when it was nasty in the winter. Our basement was always really warm and dry. Washing walls/ceilings/curtains was always an immense chore after heating season. My OL and my aunt shared an immense frame with a zillion little nails embedded in the wood. You'd wash the curtains then "pin" them onto the nails to dry and stretch so they wouldn't need ironing. When this was in the hall/yard/basement, we were always admonished, "Look out for the curtain frame!". Thanx for all the memories!
One more thing. The "Phoebe Snow" was operated by the Erie-Lackawanna RR whose tracks ran on a trestle opposite our back yard. My OM's uncle was one of the engineers and used to really goose it up when the diesel train climbed the trestle. The entire house would shake, and for good measure he would lean on the air horn for the entire length of the block. Drowning out the TV, radio, or my OL on the phone. Her response after the racket went past was always, "That g-ddamn Uncle Charlie!".
Is the kind/brand my parents got when we lived in the 'hood until 1959 when we moved to the 'burbs. We had a coal furnace in the basement that operated hot water radiators, and the fire always had a blue cast to it. There was a series of small-link chains that went across the basement ceiling and up the stairs to our 1st floor landing. These were to operate the damper but never, ever worked right. My OM always adjusted the mechanism by hand at the furnace. Clinkers always got prompt attention along with much %$#@! The coal man would come with "a ton" and set up chutes down the alleyway to the bin, and the truck bed would go way, way up in the air and cause a hell of a racket accompanied by much dust. Us kids would scavenge the "nuts" as we called them to write on the slate sidewalks (hopscotch diagrams and the occasional bad words). A couple shovelfuls in the ayem kept the furnace going most of the day; shake down the ashes at night and "dampen" the fire for the night. Ashes went into a can for pickup once a week, unless it snowed then we scattered them in the alleyway and sidewalk. My aunt lived around the corner, and had a gas-on-coal stove in the kitchen. Also a stove in the parlor connected to a flue. It looked like a big console radio. Both burned "pea" coal. Both familes had a big tank in the kitchen next to a burner that looked like a rocket ship. The burner had coils over a gas jet that would heat up the cold incoming water and deposit it via a pipe that went to the top of tank. You'd feel the tank to tell when it was hot enough. When my OL was preg with my sister, she loved to do dishes and lean against the tank to get relief for her aching back. Of course, this would be brutally hot during the summer so someone would crank up the hot water in the middle of the night and put a fan in the window so as not to be getting heat stroke during the day. The hot water would usually be enough for the whole day (it was a really big tank). Our radiators from the coal stove (one to a room) had little torpedoes on the side that would give off steam sometimes (I don't know why) and humidify the room. My OL put pie tins underneath them to catch the condensed water. Rust! The furnace had a plumbing pipe that the OM would turn on every week or so to add water to the system. It had a glass tube on the side that would tell you when it was full. We had an old-fashioned gas stove on tall legs that was over where the furnace was. My cat always slept under there. And my OL had lines in the basement, too, to dry clothes when it was nasty in the winter. Our basement was always really warm and dry. Washing walls/ceilings/curtains was always an immense chore after heating season. My OL and my aunt shared an immense frame with a zillion little nails embedded in the wood. You'd wash the curtains then "pin" them onto the nails to dry and stretch so they wouldn't need ironing. When this was in the hall/yard/basement, we were always admonished, "Look out for the curtain frame!". Thanx for all the memories!
One more thing. The "Phoebe Snow" was operated by the Erie-Lackawanna RR whose tracks ran on a trestle opposite our back yard. My OM's uncle was one of the engineers and used to really goose it up when the diesel train climbed the trestle. The entire house would shake, and for good measure he would lean on the air horn for the entire length of the block. Drowning out the TV, radio, or my OL on the phone. Her response after the racket went past was always, "That g-ddamn Uncle Charlie!".
Quote: It was years later I learned that "checking the furnace" meant actually a good swig of scotch from the bottle he kept above the furnace and not much to do with the coal at all....
*WOW* Even. Would you look at that! Even str8 men have to drink to take the edge off to able to lyeth next to the beast.... er female... of the species. (LOL ducks and runs REALLY fast to exit the torch-wielding mob).
Coal chute door in New York City, 2010.
Pipe above it is a vent line from a modern and currently used fuel-oil storage tank. These pipes whistle as oil is added to the tank while tank is empty. As the tank approaches being full, the whistling stops; turn off the oil-delivery truck's pumps and fast!
*WOW* Even. Would you look at that! Even str8 men have to drink to take the edge off to able to lyeth next to the beast.... er female... of the species. (LOL ducks and runs REALLY fast to exit the torch-wielding mob).
Coal chute door in New York City, 2010.
Pipe above it is a vent line from a modern and currently used fuel-oil storage tank. These pipes whistle as oil is added to the tank while tank is empty. As the tank approaches being full, the whistling stops; turn off the oil-delivery truck's pumps and fast!
nurdlinger
Well-known member
Coal chute door
Newer houses than ours (built 1942) in our neighborhood had these kinds of doors. My aunt had one, she lived a couple blocks away. Our coal went in through one of the basement windows. My memory is really unclear here, I recall that the entire window and frame came out. That doesn't seem reasonable to me sitting here in 2011, but that's how I remember it. Anyone I could ask about it is no longer alive.
Newer houses than ours (built 1942) in our neighborhood had these kinds of doors. My aunt had one, she lived a couple blocks away. Our coal went in through one of the basement windows. My memory is really unclear here, I recall that the entire window and frame came out. That doesn't seem reasonable to me sitting here in 2011, but that's how I remember it. Anyone I could ask about it is no longer alive.
Torpedoes for ptcruiser51.
The torpedoes were single-pipe steam air vents. The radiators were filled with steam, not hot water. The purpose of the air vents is to let the air out of the radiators and then shut when the hot steam hits them, keeping the steam in the system. When steam comes out of the vents, it means that the vents are stuck open. If the vents drip water, it's often the result of the open vent releasing steam. In both cases, the vents likely need to be replaced or boiled in vinegar. Dripping vents can also indicate radiators that aren't properly sloped (the radiator must be slightly angled toward the valve so the condensed water that used to be steam flows back to the pipe and back to the boiler.
Vents releasing steam is extremely bad. The heating system should be a sealed system, recycling the boiler water over and over again, making steam, condensing back to water, then being reheated again. As this works, the recycled water looses its oxygen, reducing the corrosion of the system. If the vents release steam, water must be added to the system, and this water contains oxygen, which will corrode the system. Also, many systems need chemical additives to improve performance and further reduce corrosion. when steam is released, the chemical balance of the boiler water is thrown off. Releasing steam necessitates lots of makeup water, which is a great way to corrode a boiler beyond repair in a big hurry.
I wish I had steam heat!
Dave
The torpedoes were single-pipe steam air vents. The radiators were filled with steam, not hot water. The purpose of the air vents is to let the air out of the radiators and then shut when the hot steam hits them, keeping the steam in the system. When steam comes out of the vents, it means that the vents are stuck open. If the vents drip water, it's often the result of the open vent releasing steam. In both cases, the vents likely need to be replaced or boiled in vinegar. Dripping vents can also indicate radiators that aren't properly sloped (the radiator must be slightly angled toward the valve so the condensed water that used to be steam flows back to the pipe and back to the boiler.
Vents releasing steam is extremely bad. The heating system should be a sealed system, recycling the boiler water over and over again, making steam, condensing back to water, then being reheated again. As this works, the recycled water looses its oxygen, reducing the corrosion of the system. If the vents release steam, water must be added to the system, and this water contains oxygen, which will corrode the system. Also, many systems need chemical additives to improve performance and further reduce corrosion. when steam is released, the chemical balance of the boiler water is thrown off. Releasing steam necessitates lots of makeup water, which is a great way to corrode a boiler beyond repair in a big hurry.
I wish I had steam heat!
Dave
whirlcool
Well-known member
Escaping the beast.....
Has anyone every seen the Rosanne episode "PMS I Love you?"
It's a must see for every guy who has experienced it! It'll have you rolling on the floor!
Has anyone every seen the Rosanne episode "PMS I Love you?"
It's a must see for every guy who has experienced it! It'll have you rolling on the floor!
ptcruiser51
Well-known member
@ Volvo Guy
I still think our system was hot water, but your knowledge sure seems right on. We were very poor back in the 1950s, and lived in a tenement that wasn't the best. It sure kept us warm and never acted up much. I can remember the water "running" through those radiators, though!
I still think our system was hot water, but your knowledge sure seems right on. We were very poor back in the 1950s, and lived in a tenement that wasn't the best. It sure kept us warm and never acted up much. I can remember the water "running" through those radiators, though!
cornutt
Well-known member
The high school I went to had an ancient building that had been built in stages in the 1910s. It had steam heat. There was a coal burning furnace, remote from the building. It was not large enough to heat the whole building at once, so the building was divided into three zones and it cycled to the next zone every 15 minutes or so. Of course this meant that every part of the system was constantly heating, cooling, heating, cooling, etc. The constant clanking and banging and gurgling and hissing and squeaking you could not imagine. And just about every joint and connection in the system leaked. Plus, it was prone to air locks and sometimes a particular classroom would be freezing cold for no apparent reason and nothing that anybody did with the valves would make every difference. Then the next day it would be a different classroom. Hated, hated, hated it.
You'd Think The Town
Would have sprung for the most common solution to part of your comlaint: zoned heating with several boilers/furnaces.
Then again it is possible to have one steam producing power plant able to provide heating (and cooling for steam run ACs for that matter). Though not sure if these involved then or now more than one boiler.
Many NYC public housing estates (developments) had a single rotary boiler system that supplied steam (for heating and hot water), for the entire complex. This of course involves complicated and extensive system of pipes to take steam to builings, and also return the condensed water back to the boiler.
This arrangement was seen elsewhere in the world, and is still used, even in remote parts of Russia. Of course the large scale version of this would be electric power companies such as Con Edison here in NYC. Con Ed supplies steam via pipes all over Manhattan, to be used for heating, cooling and at one time to run machinery. Far better and safer for building residents/employees to have such high pressure steam produced off site and piped, rather than scores of such boilers running in basements.
Would have sprung for the most common solution to part of your comlaint: zoned heating with several boilers/furnaces.
Then again it is possible to have one steam producing power plant able to provide heating (and cooling for steam run ACs for that matter). Though not sure if these involved then or now more than one boiler.
Many NYC public housing estates (developments) had a single rotary boiler system that supplied steam (for heating and hot water), for the entire complex. This of course involves complicated and extensive system of pipes to take steam to builings, and also return the condensed water back to the boiler.
This arrangement was seen elsewhere in the world, and is still used, even in remote parts of Russia. Of course the large scale version of this would be electric power companies such as Con Edison here in NYC. Con Ed supplies steam via pipes all over Manhattan, to be used for heating, cooling and at one time to run machinery. Far better and safer for building residents/employees to have such high pressure steam produced off site and piped, rather than scores of such boilers running in basements.
Central steam plant
The Village of Mariemont on the east side of Cincinnati originally had a central steam system piped to homes and businesses. This was a planned community built in the 1920's. I don't know all the details about how long they used it, ect. Dave (Volvoguy)might be able to tell us more.
The Village of Mariemont on the east side of Cincinnati originally had a central steam system piped to homes and businesses. This was a planned community built in the 1920's. I don't know all the details about how long they used it, ect. Dave (Volvoguy)might be able to tell us more.
lordkenmore
Well-known member
Here are a couple of old radio coal ads.
First, Olga coal, ad obviously made during World War II
First, Olga coal, ad obviously made during World War II
lordkenmore
Well-known member
polkanut
Well-known member
My Grandpa also had to always "check the furnace", even though they had gas forced air heat. Grandpa kept a jug of wine stashed in a corner of the basement.
