advantage of additives in detergents

[kenmoreguy89]

In Italy and in all western countries for that matter they get away with mentioning "Hygiene" hence hygienize-r or sanitize, also playing with graphics so putting a cross etc...
They give the impression the product is disinfecting or can disinfect and by all means does not.
They do that wirh laundry detergents and pretty much all products for the house.
However, by analazing the words used and how they put things down you get ehat is what, hygienize or sanitize,they means make something more hygienic or sanitary.
Plain soap itself is something that makes something more hygienic and sanitary, and that is by cleaning it, both terms according to all dictionaries can simply mean 'cleaning" and naturally all detergents will clean.
In a courtroom you cannot accuse them of fraud or misleading information, that's because the actually never stated they can and do disinfect, at best they will say it reduces bacteria, and again even soap by removing the dirt which causes bacteria.
All the rest is just in the head of the consumers and the easiness with which they can be manipulated with using words and graphics into believing something they never said plain and clear, especially as people goes more and more shallow about consuming and yes, ignorant.
Which is funny, people today are more schooled than they were before but much more ignorant and mindless and attentive.
Yet you have people that thinks that with cleaning something with that spray it will be is infected like a surgeon table just because it says "hygenic plus" on it with a nice red cross next to it.

 

[kenmoreguy89]

*it will be disinfected".
Not infected

 

[mrboilwash]

Freddy, Persil Power Mix Caps do not contain any bleaching agents not even in the powder section.
Don`t know why they don`t (or didn`t), maybe they were afraid of spot bleaching if someone uses them in an old Indesit which had a static heating phase after a rather short initial tumbling.
Maybe they found the tiny amounts of oxygen bleach that could be incorporated into the small standard size of a pod isn`t worth to bother because it wouldn`t do much anyway.
There`s still Arm and Hammer pods, but they aren`t that great...

"I would be interested to see the review"
Here you go! The results aren`t for free unfortunately because the test is rather recent.

Colorwaschmittel im Test: Pulver wäscht Buntes besser

Flüssige oder Pulver: Welches Colorwaschmittel Testsieger der Stiftung Warentest ist. Finden Sie das beste Colorwaschmittel!

www.test.de

 

[mrboilwash]

Here`s another one:

Vollwaschmittel im Test

20 Vollwaschmittel im Test der Stiftung Warentest: Die Besten gehören zu den günstigsten. Hier informieren!

www.test.de

 

[kenmoreguy89]

Oh really? I was sure they had it. Never used them myself, I just recall having seen them at the store and online
Must have misread and or confused optical whiteners.
I have one of those Indesit you are talking about, a L5, stupid machine indeed, because of that system and the ascending descending regulated by the spin button.
This system ruins it IMO.
Anyway I don't know if this is the reason, oxygen bleach don't typically bother unless is a crappy dye and I mean, you got a plethora of additive products in tablet form.
Even stuff like Napisan which is a tablet like DW's ones and is advised to put one in every load.
From Henkel:
I recall
Sil tablets of old...color safe, and if one still had to have an Indesit was sure more likely back then than now.
Probably you're right about the little percarbonate quantity that could be in there which I did not think of.
They look quite tiny indeed, so likely that is the reason.

 

[launderess]

Have a stash of older Tide "Boost" pods, some still in original packets, and all are fine.

With a dedicated bleach disc or pod you can have enough product for an average load. Then of course there is the usual advice on dosage for such things, use two for larger or heavily soiled washing.

As stated there isn't much room in detergent discs/pods even if a separate chamber is created for powder product. Suppose it is possible to use a very concentrated bleach formula, but that might prove to be costly.

Industrial/commercial laundry products like Ecolab use dispenser systems offer both liquid and solid oxygen bleach that takes rather small amounts for 50lb, 60lb, 100lb, etc... loads. Sales rep calibrates things for machine and that's that. But those products are very expensive and not sold for domestic use.

 

[launderess]

Oxygen bleach *will* harm dyes on coloured items

Best dyes or lower quality, it doesn't matter.

Under proper conditions sodium percarbonate, sodium perborate and even liquid hydrogen peroxide will "bleach" coloured items leaving marks not unlike what happens with chlorine bleach.

This is one reason why makers of various oxygen bleach products advise not pouring such products on top of clothing (such as when using a top loading washer) but into drum first. This and standard directions for testing items for colourfastness before using product.

Considering wash day skills of many nowadays can see how a pod or disc with oxygen bleach could cause all sorts of problems. Way people cram washers full of clothing so things can't freely move about comes to mind. Then you have fact washers use much less water than previously.

If pod/disc cannot dissolve easily you're going to have product in contact with fabrics. Should that go on long enough (easily done with today's wash cycles that take ages), you can see chances for problems.

 

[kenmoreguy89]

Well I actually do think that the quality of the dye matters, and not marginally.
And that is something you will not get always or on any garment actually.
But I see how a overpacked washer may pose a risk in that sense. And I could see the concern of damages
But again...

Products such as vanish have indications to be used as a pre treaters by creating a paste with hot or warm water.
And of course in commercials  you see the happy housewife putting the paste  over the coloured items.
And nowhere is advised not to use them on colors.
Not to forget the gel form and the plethora of colour safe bleaches around since decades where you used to see the young woman pouring the bottle over the colors and granny behind being scared but nothing happens.
Of course you also always have indications to try in a hidden corner first to verify  the strength of the fabric's dye,  so in case of damage they will say "eh but we warned you to try first in a hidden corner".
I've seen that myself, for example my sister's that worked with acids, some clothes would suffer if drops would hit them, others (most) just nothing.
And I'm talking about cottons, not synthetics which seems to be less susceptible to bleaching.
So it means some dyes are less bothered by oxidation hence bleaching of peracetic acid or chlorine and my findings are that most are not bothered.
And considering that oxygen is by far less aggressive and fast acting than chlorine there you go.
Besides, I say again that there are many additives in a pouch form, or powder cap form, i recall who knows "omino bianco" caps, and are relatively small caps, also, can still be found oxygen laden (15 to 30℅ oxygen) detergent tablets that suggested to put them inside the drum while using a h axis Toploader ( which I don't really know why since they also have drawers).
The suggestion to put the product first is something we read pretty much in every pod package now regardless of what they contain.
But since is no news that sometimes some complaints of undissolved pods comes about then I see where we go with the argument.

 

[kenmoreguy89]

Worded that wrongly.

*Most are not *that* bothered by peroxide-oxy.
Chlorine being stronger and acting faster as we know do create a damage most of the times.

 

[fisherpaykel]

Launderess "getting on?"

Haha no Launderess I beg to differ, you and we are are not getting on but more experienced and sometimes it takes a bit of time to recall that accumulated knowledge! Hopefully while still on that topic of discussion and not an hour later.

 

[qsd-dan]

I prefer all of my additives to be separate.

I don't want STPP is my cold dark/bright loads. That stuff will fade these colors in a jiffy.

I don't want oxy bleaches in my cold or warm loads. Junk clothes are fine, but long term use fades colors and it's not that effective in cooler temps. I'd go so far to say its effectiveness doesn't really shine until 155F.

Ammonia is fine in all loads but it's caustic and hard on metal/porcelain parts. I try to use it sparingly these days. Ammonia is compatible with oxy bleaches, which is convenient.

I quit using chlorine bleach 13 years ago and don't miss it what-so-ever.

I tried vinegar in the rinse a few times. There's a noticeable difference but not enough to make it worth using on a regular basis.

Borax works ok but I found STPP does a better job and rinses out MUCH easier.

Then there's temperature limitations. Using bio detergents in temps above 130F will kill off enzymes.

I don't want powdered detergent in my cold washes, it fades colors. I use it exclusively in warm/hot loads though.

Some of products don't play nice when mixed. Using a detergent with oxygen bleach and adding chlorine bleach will cancel each other out. Using chlorine bleach at the beginning of a wash cycle will immediately kill enzymes off when a bio detergent is used. Please don't go mixing ammonia and chlorine bleach together!

A good portion of the these products shouldn't be used by those on a septic tank.

 

[DADoES]

 
What is the mechanism by which STPP fades colors?  I've been using it on every load since Nov 2008 to no discernible such effect.

 

[lakewebsterkid]

STPP and colors

A majority of my clothes look new after 10 or more washes with STPP, Ammonia, and Tide products that do not contain optical brighteners. If that combo doesn't fade them, I know STPP alone won't. There are too many variables involved to say that you know STPP is causing dye loss.
Also, while ammonia is caustic, so is chlorine bleach and many powdered detergents. If I recall correctly, that is why sodium silicate is added to higher quality powders (to reduce rate of corrosion).

 

[mrboilwash]

In the mid 80s when we still had those huge boxes of phosphate based powders just like today approximate percentage of the most important ingredients were printed on the boxes.

I think to recall that all the heavy duty "Vollwaschmittel" like Persil, Ariel or OMO had about 15% of phosphates.

The light duty "Feinwaschmittel" brands intended for delicates, non-colorfast clothes and so on like Korall, Fewa, Rei and Perwoll had about 30% of phosphate content, but they were buffered, which means they were almost neutral in pH.
Maybe this made all the difference why this huge amount of phosphate had little ill effect on colors, I don`t know.

I don`t know why heavy duty detergents had way less phosphates, maybe they`ve already reduced it because of environmental concern or maybe it was just to have more room in the formula for other ingredients like washing soda and oxy bleach.

 

[launderess]

It took scientists at P&G a great deal of time and much effort to create "Tide" synthetic detergent from the formula they licensed from I.G. Farben.

Answer to your query Mr. Boil Wash may be contained wherein:

"Despite the fits and starts and constant strains, Byerly was making progress. By 1941, he had concluded that the best builder was sodium tripolyphosphate. More importantly, Byerly had a counterintuitive breakthrough.

All previous research on soaps and detergents had shown that reducing the amount of builder in a formula yielded a less harsh product (and it was the harshness of products with builder that hamstrung the project for so many years).

Like his predecessors and colleagues, Byerly at first tried to keep the proportion of surfactant—the actual cleaning agent—as high as possible. But when he inverted the ratio by boosting the level of builder well above the amount of surfactant, he got a surprising result: The detergent cleaned well without leaving clothes stiff and harsh.

After a great deal of trial and error, Byerly determined that the correct formula was one part active detergent, alkyl sulfate, to three parts builder, sodium tripolyphosphate. No one could figure out why it worked, but it worked".

https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/tidedetergent.html

From my limited German it seems as if "Joanna" touts fact that FEWA is a "neutral" detergent. This means it was suitable for cleaning woolens, silks and other fine laundry, but also could tackle other light duty cleaning around home. All without being harsh on milady's hands in those days before washing up gloves.

 

[mrboilwash]

Thanks Launderess, so you agree that STTP doesn`t harm colors?

Or do you think it`s only OK to use it as long as the pH of it is buffered?

 

[qsd-dan]

What is the mechanism by which STPP fades colors?

I can't answer that question but in my early days of experimenting with phosphates, the use of it would turn the wash water extremely dark, generally the color of the items being washed. There was also noticeable fading of dark colors, particularly with long term use. I was using a good detergent back then and had a temper valve set to 85F so phosphates weren't compensating for improper laundering methods. I also made (and still make) a huge effort not to get cold wash items dirty...basically office dust. There were a few other members in the past who commented about similar results, I remember Toggleswitch being one of them.

If phosphates works for those here in cold water items without any issues, ignore my post and carry on. I'm just commenting about my specific findings. For those like me who keep and wear the same clothes for the long-haul (I wear the same clothing for decades), I would recommend testing phosphates on some cheap/junk dark items before making it a long term habit.

 

[foraloysius]

I've searched the archives using the searchalator for a post from Steve (Toggleswitch) about STPP and fading, but found nothing.

Are you sure it was the STPP or just new or relatively new clothes that lost color just because they hadn't been washed much?

 

[adam-aussie-vac]

I just recently brought some ammonia,

What do you guys use it for in the wash?

 

[launderess]

Phosphates and fading of textiles.....

Have to admit haven't been able to find anything that explicitly backs up that claim. Don't use STPP with all laundry, only whites and even then more so when using that Persil soap in my stash. Find TOL European detergents both liquid and powders perform well enough on their own.

Ammonia in laundry...

Household liquid ammonia is merely the gas ammonium hydroxide suspended in water. The whiff you get from the stuff is that gas escaping from liquid back into air.

Ammonium hydroxide has a pH of about 11.2 making it one of the weaker bases used for laundry. In comparison soda ash (washing soda) is 11.26, sodium metasilicate is 12.62, sodium hydroxide (lye) is 12.88, trisodium phosphate is 12.12, and borax is only 9.05.

PH scale is logarithmic meaning that a substance above or below another can be 10 to 100 times more base or acidic.

In terms of cleaning and laundry use base substances have been used for centuries. Everything from ashes from trees and plants to urine. Romans used urine to brush their teeth as well as for cleaning textiles.

Base substance mixed with fats or oils causes saponification which is part of the cleaning action. Quick lime is poured over dead bodies to hasten decomposition by that process.

For textiles washing at a base pH level causes various natural textile fibers to swell thus releasing dirt and soils. This is the other part of why various substances are used to raise the pH of wash water. Note all soaps in water solution are alkaline, but not all detergents which can range from neutral to either slightly acidic to various levels of base (alkaline)

Ammonia being a weaker base is used because it will "break" soils and oils from fabrics, but not cause as much damage as say sodium hydroxide, washing soda or TSP. For generations it was advised to use ammonia when washing woolens such as blankets because if used in proper amounts it shouldn't cause harm.

Commercial laundries long have and still do use a range of "breaks" and builders that are highly alkaline. These products are *NOT* meant for use in domestic/homestyle washing machines. Such appliances are often made from soft metal parts that will corrode with constant exposure to such harsh chemicals. Commercial/industrial machines are made from high quality stainless steel and other metals designed to withstand repeated exposure to harsh alkalies and acids.

Before enzymes laundry was largely based upon chemistry; alkalies were used for certain soils and stains, acids for another. Hospital laundry with blood stains in UK was routinely done with nothing more than soap, sodium metasilicate and perborate bleach. Ammonia or any other base will remove blood as well.

Asian attendants at local laundry have gotten on the ammonia bandwagon. Have seen them pour one-third to half bottle of the stuff into machines when doing service washes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_solution

https://www.labmanager.com/lab-health-and-safety/working-with-ammonium-hydroxide-20206