American vs. European Washers and Dryers

[MrX]

Night Rate

We've had night rate power in Ireland for many decades. Basically at midnight (or 11pm) the meter starts counting on a night rate dial.

Old installations had 2 meters and a huge time switch (the same size as a meter) that swapped meters at midnight without interrupting the supply obviously.

From the 1970s they just combined 2 dials into one meter the time switch just sent an impulse to tell it to switch dial.

and more recently the meters are digital and just store two sets of KWH counts for day and night rate.

You can buy washers, dryers and dishwashers that are designed to take advantage of night rate power. They've a delay timer on the control panel. You just select how many hours you want the machine to wait before starting.

The main use of night rate power here remains "storage heating". Your house had "storage heaters" which are basically electric heaters full of special heat-retaining bricks. At night, the elements come on and heat the bricks up (taking advantage of the night rate power). The heater then, using dampers and fans, controls how much heat's given out during the day and uses little or no day-rate power.

The hot water tank is also typically highly insulated and would be programmed to fully heat over night at the cheaper rate.

Exactly the same setup is used in the UK and elsewhere.

 

[brisnat81]

Night Rate and Rewireable fuses

Hi All,

Off Peak as we call it here has existed since the 1970's or perhaps even earlier,

We have 3 levels of Power,

Always on - Used for General outlets, stoves, a/c, and so forth.

Ecconomy - Guarenteed power for 18 hours per day, but could subject to load shedding in Summer. Used for Heat exchanger hot water, Pool Pumps, Dishwashers, dryers etc.

Super Ecconomy - 8 hours of power per day, usually between 10pm and 6am. Mainly used for Storage hotwater units.

There are different tarrifs for each of the levels, and it is necessary to have a second meter for either of the ecconomy options. My grandmothers and mothers off peak circuits have a manual switch to change the off peak circuits from Econnomy to Day rate, if you need power on the circuit outside of the off peak hours.

Rewireable fuses only saw their demise, with the wide acceptance of Circuit Breakers in the 80's. There never really was any other alternative in australia, you had a circuit breaker or a rewireable fuse.

 

[kenmore1978]

US fuses

I forgot about "cartridge" fuses. These were shaped like the fuses used in cars and electronic devices but were MUCH larger and weren't made of glass. There was no way to tell if they were blown, one had to replace it with a known good one. They wre inserted into bakelite "blocks" that had handles on them. These blocks then wre plugged into the electrical panel. I think they were introduced in the 30's someone correct me if I'm wrong. Lower amp rated cartridges snapped in like the aforementioned car fuses and contact was made on the round ends. Higher rated fuses had blades on the end of the round part and the blade part is where contact was made.

 

[toggleswitch]

US cartridge fuses

yes....yes.... plug-style threaded edison screw-base fuses went up to 30 amps... above that cartridge fuses were used.

yes..the bakelight blocks were like "caddys" or "beds" for the fuses making them easy-to-change.

These were used for electric stoves and protecting main service in residences, as well as larger commerical/industrial loads.

 

[toggleswitch]

request for time-of-day heaters link

Ayone have a web-link for time-of-day load-shifting heaters?

MrX?

Thank you

 

[MrX]

Here's a link that explains most of the storage heating / electric heating options available in the UK and Ireland, including a radiator based "wet" system.

And below is a picture of a typical storage heater unit.

http://www.natenergy.org.uk/el-heat.htm

 

[MrX]

BRISNAT81,

That's quite a complicated set of tarrifs.

Our system only has 2 rates night and day. There's no different service / interrupted power. All that happens is at 12AM GMT the meter switches to a second KWH dial and at 8AM it switches back to day rate.

All appliances drawing power after midnight use it.

The annoying bit is that the meter's incapable of making the summer time / winter time adjustment. (well the old ones anyway)

So, when the time changes, the meter still switches at 12AM GMT (rather than 12AM GMT+1 summer time)

 

[kenmore1978]

30 amp main service

The house we lived in in the Seventies still had its original 2 wire 120 volt 30 amp service AND both sides of each circuit were fused (for safety reasons I removed the fuses on the neutral side of the main and branch circuits and removed the insulating disc in the sockets so the neutral side of the lines were uninterrupted) Unlike a lot of houses of the time, there actually were adquate branch circuits, and even one spare circuit that we later utilized, but the 30 amp main was a problem. We had to live like the Douglases on "Green Acres". Had a chart taped to the wall with the amp draw of each appliance listed. Always had to allow 5 amps for the refrigerator. All it took was one thing too many and we'd be sitting in the dark. Even when the load was kept under 30 amps, the little block inside the main 30 amp time delay fuse would literally glow dull red at times. As I mentioned before, the fuses were eventually replaced with little circuit breakers that screwed in place of the fuses. Eventually I purchased new wire capable of carrying 80 amps, bypassed the original entrance wire and used a 50 amp electric range breaker salvaged from a friend's house as the main breaker. This worked excellently until we did some re-modeling in 1978 and that setup was replaced with a modern 100 amp service entrance with modern breakers

 

[toggleswitch]

Kenmore1978:

"...and removed the insulating disc in the sockets so the neutral side of the lines were uninterrupted)"

What is an insulating disc?

Sounds like an apt I had. Same deal==> 30a 110v, 2 fuses.
I cheated a little and put in 20a and a 15a. Same as above, I had the screw-in breakers. (That replace plug fuses.)

When everyone was using their A/C the main fuses in the basement would blow due to the heat generated from the NEIGHBORING fuse and in the panels, generally...even when WAY under limit in usage. And naturally, the landlord would be away on vacation (holiday) when this happened and we'd be out of power for 2 days. JOY JOY JOY!

I put up with this non-sense for years, until I got sneaky and plugged the ref. and the A/C as well as the TV and a lamp into a hallway outlet, metered to the landlord. LOL (but only on such "special" occasions!!!) Amazing how much quicker the power was restored when HIS (hallway) fuses started to blow and the hallways were partially dark. LOL

Luckily, I found (or should I say paid dearly for) a new air-conditioner for the window that was 10,500 Btu/h and only took 7.5amps!! It had the highest energy-efficiency ratio around at the time of 12.0+/- ("Most" economical) The ratio = Btu/h divided by watts. (Watts = volts X amps)

luckily such a "small" A/C was just barely enough to keep the place dry and from becoming a steam-bath (In NYC it's the humidity more than the heat that makes summers exremely uncomfortatble.

[As a reference point for our international friends 10,000 to 12,000 Btu/hr (British thermal units) is approximately one gas burner on top of the stove set to full-flame. or enough to cool two average rooms (12 foot square or 3.6 meters square) in "my" climate. ]

Those were the days.

BTW ==> the rule of thumb for (electric) heating in this part of US is 10 watts per square foot (with 8 or 9 foot ceilings) and 1 watt per cubic foot for irregular ceilings (vaulted, extra-tall, sloped etc.)

one watt = 3.4 Btu.

12 x 12 foot room = 144 Square feet.
144 x 10 watts = 1,440
1,440 watts * 3.4 Btu = 4,896 Btu which rounded is 5,000 Btu.

1,440 watts / 120 volts = 12 amps (80% of 15) Therefore a room heater can be plugged into a regular general-duty outlet/socket in the US, but without much more on the line!!!!

Now can someone explain to me Kilo-watts as a unit of cooling capacity?

Just another numbers game: for US gas-fired domestic water-heaters, storage type

30 US gallon ==> usually 30,000 Btu/Hr
40 US gallon ==>usually 40,000 Btu/h
50 US gallon ==> usually 50,000 Btu/h

More Btu/h is a "better" or actually faster one,
less are usually slower (BOL models)

Too much said.
Regards All

 

[yaktx]

Cartridge Fuses

"I think they were introduced in the 30's someone correct me if I'm wrong."

According to the Square D website, the cartridge fuse was patented in 1903 by the McBride Manufacturing Company, the predecessor to Square D. A few years later, the company changed its name to the Detroit Fuse & Manufacturing Company, and bought the American patents to a British design of externally-operable safety switch.

The notoriously tamper-prone North American plug fuse, which shares the same thread as our light bulbs, is usually called an Edison fuse, as they were invented by Thomas Edison about 1882. He is said to have been inspired by the screw cap on a can of kerosene. The first Edison fuse, as well as the fuse block that accepted it, was made of wood (!!) but was soon changed to porcelain and glass. And as somebody noted, it was common practice to fuse neutrals until about 1930 or so.

If you live in a house with a service this old:

Owners, upgrade!
Renters, move!

Otherwise, bypassing the neutral fuses is probably a good idea, provided you know for certain which ones are the neutrals. Don't ever bypass or overfuse the hot!

I gather most folks here don't need that last piece of advice, but it can't hurt to repeat it.

Square D

Explore Square D by Schneider Electric™ products, services, tools, and technical support. We're powering you to succeed, with tools like OrderTrack and LayoutFAST.

www.squared.com

 

[yaktx]

Pennies

A few people mentioned pennies behind plug fuses. Thought I'd share my favorite thread on the subject.

ECN Electrical Forums - Forums powered by UBB.threads

Electrical & Code Related Forum for Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers & Related Professionals

electrical-contractor.net

 

[kenmore1978]

""...and removed the insulating disc in the sockets so the neutral side of the lines were uninterrupted)"

What is an insulating disc?"

The socket is contructed in such a way that power entered trough a center screw to the base of the fuse, than out through the shell of the socket to a brass piece shaped like football goal posts. The insulating disc separated those 2 elements. After removal the center screw and shell contacts could be screwed together.

 

[toggleswitch]

GOTCHA!

Thanks.

ah,,,round plug-fuse holders..... For some reason, I assumed you were talking about outlets! (power-points => UK)

 

[toggleswitch]

Electrical overloads

To Yaktx:

OMG... are people really that clue-less? Do the laws of physics not apply in their homes?

I know a retired fire inspector who married and moved into his wife's co-op apartment which she had owned before they met. She had her kitchen re-done and the contractor hired an electrician..... and as you may know co-ops are really anal-retentive about getting and approving licensed people. So everyone assumed this wire-worker was half-way awake. Apparently not. The electrician put the washing machine, the dishwasher and a counter-top outlet on one line. Needless to say it is the only outlet on the counter and used for the coffee-maker and the toaster simultaneously.

I pointed out my objections to the husband and wife team and he (the retired fire-inspector) agreed with me. The problem was "resolved" by them staggering the load. [I am a former accountant now into real-estate and you are a fire-inspector I had to tell YOU there was a problem????]

Me? I would have had at least four lines for that mess, with an appliance-duty quad on the counter. A quad is two adjacent duplex outlets (2 x 2 = 4) on two separate lines. A three wire cable is split into two circuits.

Scarier even is that the circuit breaker panel is right above the wall that all these loads/appliances share and that the attic (soffit ==> UK) above is open. Anyone could have easily and quickly fished throught the needed cables before, duing or after the renovation.

SIGH-- I just give up sometimes.

 

[toggleswitch]

light bulb in fuse socket.

"The notoriously tamper-prone North American plug fuse, which shares the same thread as our light bulbs"

An electrican came to my parents' house years ago to upgrade some service. The cicruit handling the light above his head was de-energized.

He simply stuck a jumper wire from the neutral bus to the one side of the fuse-holding socket. The other side of the fuse-holder, of course, was already connected to the hot/live bus... and proceeded to screw in a standard light bulb.

So simple and so obvious when pointed out; but not a conclusion one would necessarily have come to on one's own.

 

[MrX]

UK/Ireland bayonet light bulb

The edison screw-in bulb isn't necessarily the standard in Europe, although that does vary from country to country.

In the UK and Ireland at least the Bayonet fitting is the norm.

The picture's actually a Philips CFL (Compact Flourecent Light) that is designed to look very like an ordanary light bulb.

You can see the bayonet fitting on the end.

 

[kenmore1978]

Bayonet base bulbs

Interesting, the only place you generally see bayonet base bulbs here is where vibration is a problem, i.e. cars, appliances like washers, dishwashers, sewing machines.

 

[Designgeek]

Yow!, this is an incredibly useful topic! I can see myself copying info from here into my internal archive for future use.

Electric heat with storage bricks, to use offpeak rates to heat up the bricks, which in turn heat the house during the day: brilliant idea, incredibly elegant. Dual rate meters standard: excellent! No wonder folks in Europe have the same degree of comfort & convenience as we do in the US but for half the energy consumption.

I suspect these things are going to start getting used in the US as soon as the next oil crunch hits (a few years from now). Or at least I hope so. Even if you've got solar on the roof or a windfarm or nuclear reactor nearby, it's still going to pay off to invest in efficiency.

Pennies from Heaven: Ha, that item in the electricians' site about the person asking their electrician if they should put new pennies in the fusebox, was tragic comedy. She should be lucky she didn't end up dead. Ditto the ones with mouse nests in their panels: say Hello to Mr. Fire!

I don't know how safe my wiring is where I live (rental property), so I don't leave anything high-wattage plugged in unattended (aside from the fridge), and I also don't run two or more things with heating elements at the same time. Heck I don't even use the toaster if the microwave is on, or the vacuum and washer at the same time. It's not hard to keep track of the high-wattage things and use only one at a time.

I think it would be very interesting to have power meters located inside houses, in places where people can see them i.e. in the kitchen, to show what the power usage is at any given time. A simple ammeter would work for geeks like me, something more "user-friendly" would work for people who don't have an intuitive feel for voltage & current.

Re. "interruptable" power at discount rates: have three loops in the house and let people choose what to plug into each. So for instance, ordinarily the dishwasher is on a lower-priority loop, but on the night of a dinner party it gets moved to the high-priority loop, or the TV gets moved on the night you're watching a major sporting event. In my case the phone system and core computer network (DSL modem, hub, Macintosh laptop, Windows laptop, and Linux/BSD router) all get high priority, along with the fridge.

 

[foraloysius]

Screw-in bulbs

Overhere in the Netherlands the screw-in bulbs are the norm. You only see the bayonet ones in ovens etc.

 

[Cybrvanr]

overloaded electrical grids!!!

The biggest electrical nightmare was at a campground my parents and I frequented when I was a kid. The campgrounw was originally equipped in the seventies with 200 ampere service, and 12 campsite outlets rated at 15 amperes each. Along with the campsites, the bathroom was also on the same line. The showers were heated with a propane water heater, so that electrical load was not a problem. The biggest campground load was the water pump to supply water from the well to the campsite and the bathrooms.

Well, in the eighties, rooftop air conditioners became commonplace on RV's, and likewise the power requirements went up. The campground upgraded all the campsites to 30 ampere circuits so people could run air conditioners. Then, due to the demand for electricity sites, they electrified 30 more campsites. Now, we have a total of 18, 30 ampere sites for a total of 540 amperes!!!

Now, most RV air conditioners don't use all 30 amperes. Most are in the 12,000 BTU to 18, BTU range, and pull about 15-20 amperes at 120 volts. There are still cooking appliances in many of the new RV's that run off of electricity though, like microwaves, coffee pots, etc. Needless to say, the electrical system was a disaster waiting to happen, and happen it did!!!

During one 4th of July weekend, we had a nice fireworks show of our own when the main 200 ampere breaker kept blowing. The campground was filled with vacationers that weekend, and everyone had their air conditioners on, cooking food, and doing all sorts of other stuff that demands lots of electricity. (Yea, I know, hard to call it camping!!!) That was when some nice person though it would be good to keep the main breaker from tripping by putting a broom handle against it, and "propping" it on. A few hours later we start hearing this hissing sound coming from the vicinity of the the utility pole in the middle of camp. One person said "Look up! Get the helloutta tha way!!!" I looked up and noticed the "can" transformer at the top of the telephone pole was glowing red hot, and sparks and smoke was shooting out the top of it. Not long after that, the campground went dark with a big POW!!! That was when the fuse blew up on the utility pole!!!

The power company came later on that evening, about 8 hours after the thing burned out and replaced the transformer. They said it was still too hot to touch, even then! The original transformer feeding the camp was a little 12 KW transformer. (12KW / 240 volts =50 amperes!) We were drawing almost 5 times the rated capacity of the transformer. The electric company put a 50 KW can on the pole for us, and everything was fine until a day or two later...remember, the broomstick is STILL in the breaker panel!!!

Now, the only thing keeping the mains wiring from buring up was the fact that the tiny can transformer was limiting the current fairly well. Now that we had a transformer that could handle the load, the rest of the wiring didn't stand a chance. I was out on my sailboat just offshore when I heard the fire alarm going off in town. My girlfriend had just taken a shower and was walking back to the RV when she describes what she saw to me: "a line of fire start from the bathroom fuse box and went right up to the telephone pole. A short while later, the wire broke off and fell to the ground with all sorts of bright sparks and smoke going all over the place and making lots of loud noises!" Again, the power company paid for this one, since it was ahead of the meter, but that got the campground's administration on their toes and got the entire place re-wired with 3 phase 400 ampere service!

I looked at the old box that came out of there when the electricians were hooking things up the new service. The breaker box had definitely seen some extreme heat over the time. The paint was all charred off the back panel, and all the plastic insulators were melted and charred too! It's a wonder it didn't burst into flames either!!!

...Needless to say, we've never had any more electrical fireworks now that we have plenty of power to deal with!!!