And End To My Low Flow (Toilet) Woes

[rp2813]

Specifically, an American Standard "Cadet" 4000 series.  My model has the skirt all the way around the bottom for easy cleaning, but otherwise is like most other low flow (1.28 GPF) Cadets.

 

The flapper that came with the toilet is a Fluidmaster 540.  The flapper itself is plastic, so the seal is just an opaque rubber-like ring that can be removed.  These rings are notorious for developing water blisters, which is what mine did, and leaking would ensue, with the tank topping itself off perhaps every 30 minutes, if not more often.

 

I couldn't find either the ring or the entire Fluidmaster 540 assembly at two stores I tried, so I decided to go with a Korky 3060 universal fit flapper for 3" flush valves. 

 

I'm glad I did.  With the Korky, the bowl now flushes out completely instead of the half-flush I got with the Fuidmaster.  The Korky is also silent.  The Fluidmaster made a loud "thud" when it came down.  I no longer need to hold the handle down to fully clear the bowl, perhaps not even for big jobs, but I'll know more about that tomorrow.

 

If you hate the half-flush BS as much as I do, the Korky universal fit flapper is the answer for A.S. Cadets, and possibly for other makes as well.  It installs as easily as any flapper I've dealt with (there are adjustments to make prior to installation, which involve exposing or covering holes in the side of the flapper "bulb" -- covering them all is the setting for the Cadet and that makes all the difference), and it has a five year guarantee as opposed to one year with the American Standard/FM replacement. 

 

After I had purchased the Korky, for the hell of it I checked on line to see what the correct Fluidmaster replacement would have cost.  The price wasn't much different from the Korky.  I also read the reviews on the Fluidmaster, and there were several complaints about blisters forming on the flapper ring.  If you're careful, you can pop them with a pin on the top side, which will allow the ring to seal again.  A free fix, but I'm far more pleased after installing the Korky. 

 

If you have a low flow toilet with 3" valve and are disappointed with its performance, the Korky may be the answer.  It fits quite a few different makes.

 

The linked site has a video that illustrates some of what I've described here.

 

 

http://https//www.ebarnett.com/Sku/108398?cid=SHOP_Barnett_ALL_C&CATARGETID=120259710000121549&cadevice=c&gclid=CN3l5_CZxtMCFYqGfgodgyQN8g

 

[duke]

WOW-I have that toilet also and the same flapper did make it better.I then placed a 1 inch pvc coupling atop the flush valve riser to raise the water level.You don't even have to glue it on-Try it

 

[wayupnorth]

My '95 Elgier was one of the first supposedly low flow toilets. There is what flushes down in a cut off gallon plastic bottle in the tank so you still need to help it flush out in an old fashioned retrofitted toilet sold new in '95. I am going to replace it sometime soon but every time I even tried to replace a toilet myself it never turned out well. So I got to try to find someone to do it, which wont be easy.

 

[duke]

I remember those Tim.I took a razor knife and cut it mostly out,It made a normal toilet out of it.I like a toilet that flushes like Al Bundy's--BAWOOSH.

 

[rp2813]

Duke, I like the way you think!  I may try the coupler trick, as I currently have the water level set to about 3/8" below the top of the overflow pipe.

 

I do like the Cadet.  It hasn't backed up on me yet, unlike the relatively new wall-mount Gerber in the master bath.  That thing chokes on a regular basis and it has nothing to do with the low flow, as the bowl clears completely for small jobs without holding the handle down.  It's just a really bad design, but was the only wall-mount I could find that wasn't pressure-assisted.  I am not a fan of pressure-assist systems.

 

[gusherb]

I've had two of those Korky flappers fail prematurely on me, both in Toto Drakes. Two years is all I got, ended up sticking an OEM flapper back in and it's been fine for over two years (ironically also a Korky but different design).

The "sherbet pale" Eljers were some of the worst pieces of junk out there. Used one regularly for awhile and plunging was part of the routine every single time. Even with those damn pales cut out they flush horrendously. Pretty much any 1990s low flow is god awful.

There's two low flows in this house (one of them a Drake), and my bathroom has a water guzzling Cadet from the late 60s in it that I picked up from a salvage yard. Positively one of the best toilets ever made, only have to scrub the bowl once a month compared to the multiple times a week the Drake before it required.

 

[vacerator]

I considered

getting an American standard toilet in our most recent project, but they only come in white, bone, and almond.
American Standard is now owned by a Japanese company.
We got the one piece Kohler San Souci comfort height elongated. Also a 1.28 gallon flush, and it is a powerful flush. It should be for almost $800 in Cashmere. Not the battery powered flush either. Batteries inside the tank? No thanks.
The zero out mounting bolts with their depth gages are a pain. You can't see around the sides when setting it in place on them. I even drew a pencil outline of the toilet on the tile. No big deal. The flat bolts may look nice, but I got regular tall ones, cut them off and painted the plastic caps to match close.
Tip; if the bolts won't stand up when mounting a toilet, put chewing gum on them at the base on the flange.

 

[sudsmaster]

I have a couple of Waterridge low flow commodes here. One is older than the other. It has what looks like a proprietary flush valve assembly. The newer one has some sort of Fluidmaster valve assembly. Both are monolithic incorporating the float and valve in one tower. Both are dual flush. I think they are 1.1 gal or 1.6 gal rated. The older one seems to work better than the newer one. But both get the job done. It's rare that I have to repeat a full flush.

A leaking flush valve sort of defeats the whole water conservation goal, no?

LOL.

 

[ken]

The house I purchased last year has an Eljer in it. My brother actually installed it when he purchased and renovated the house in 89-90. It has that stupid jug around the flapper in the tank. I hate it. It clogs almost every time. Compounding the problem is the hole in the bowl which is too small. I have the 1951 American Standard that was original to the house when it was built. Reinstalling that is on my to-do list. I have no doubt I wont have to deal with clogs with the American Standard. [this post was last edited: 4/28/2017-10:47]

 

[fmtech]

Fluidmaster Flapper

Fluidmaster states in their reviews to give them a call and they will replace the flapper ring at no cost. The flapper model for replacing the 540 American Standard is model 5401GB (Sold at Home Depot) and model 5403 at all the other hardware stores and comes with a 10 year warranty.
The Cadet using 1.28 GPF (gallon per flush) is designed to flush less water than the standard 1.6 GPF. I have found that even with the less amount of water used it clears the bowl just as easily and the remaining water is not needed.

Before making your 1.28 into a 3.0 GPF get a replacement by calling Fluidmaster or pick up a new flapper. The money you save in water will be more in the long run.

Fluidmaster Universal 3 in. Adjustable Toilet Flapper for Glacier Bay Toilets 5401GBP4 - The Home Depot

Bring a touch of aesthetic elegance to your bathroom with this Fluidmaster Universal Adjustable Toilet Flapper for Glacier Bay Toilets.

www.homedepot.com

 

[washman]

I've had good luck with Korky fill valves and flappers in my commodes.

 

[rp2813]

@fmtech

Thanks for the info but I'm fine with the Korky, and at this point it's water under the closet. 

 

Even with the thorough flushing action the Korky provides, the toilet still uses far less water than a vintage (+/-) 5GPF model.  I don't even think the Cadet's tank can hold five gallons.

 

The one store I didn't check was Home Depot.  I had already been to Lowe's and Orchard Supply, both of which had minimal Fluidmaster flapper options, so felt odds were against HD carrying what I needed.  I don't know what Fluidmaster's objective is, but it seems counter productive to give Home Depot an exclusive on such a commonly needed item.  If either Lowe's or OSH had carried just the FM flapper ring, I'd have purchased that at much lower cost than the Korky replacement, and been none the wiser about what I consider to be desirable attributes of a flapper made by Fluidmaster's chief competitor.  You may want to share my experience with your marketing department.

 

 

 

[sudsmaster]

I *think* I wound up getting a Korky to rebuild the old American Standard low boy toilet that was in the master bath addition (added in the 70's, I think). But that thing, while it looked great, had a custom curved bowl top that few seats could fit. And of course it drank water. It also didn't flush all that reliably. So I replaced it with a low flow waterridge, which has generally worked very well.

 

[askolover]

My AS Champion was filling frequently a couple years ago.  I had read about the gaskets going bad on the flappers so I replaced it with a Korky gasket made to fit the original AS plastic flapper design.  But the toilet kept doing it.  Turns out it was the water level in the tank set too high and it was seeping out through the bowl fill hose.  I lowered the water a little and it hasn't done it since.  I may try the 1"PVC coupling thing to see if it works.  Although, my Champion truly is just that....a Champion!  I threw the plunger away!!!

 

[rp2813]

On Cleaning

Maybe I should start a new thread on this, but will try here first.

 

My Cadet came with some sort of anti-microbal/non-stick/easy-clean bowl coating, and cleaning instructions advise to use a mild soap solution as opposed to anything abrasive.  We have hard water here, and all toilets tend to develop calcified rings around the water's edge.  Dish soap doesn't cut it.

 

I've used Lime-Away on this toilet, which may or may not have compromised the special coating already, but I'm hesitant to start using truly abrasive cleansers or a pumice stone. 

 

Should I consider this coating bunk (I'm fairly certain it's just a gimmick) and go ahead and use normal bowl cleaners?  I don't want to create an unsightly situation.

 

[wayupnorth]

I know what you mean Ralph. My Elgier, most horrid purchase I ever made, as in an earlier posting here. My water is a 9 out of 10 on hardness. My water softner with rust remover salt does an ok job but that ring in the toilet is there every morning. About once a month I use "The Works" cleaner and it is much easier to just give a quick brush to daily.

 

[sudsmaster]

I don't think normal bowl cleaners (like those bottles with angled necks from Lysol or Chlorox) are abrasive. But then I don't know if chlorine bleach (or whatever Lysol contains) would leach the anti-microbial substances out of the glaze.

But I do know that my commodes require weekly cleaning, or more, even if they are used only for #1. The water here is moderately soft (4 grains), so hard water mineral deposits don't seem to be the main issue, just ... grunge ...

So I'd try some of the commercial bowl cleaners. If those don't do it, maybe Bon Ami. I would avoid harsh abrasives like pumice.

PS-Got STPP?

 

[askolover]

My Champion has that antimicrobial  finish too...it doesn't work.  I use the Lysol cleaner with hydrochloric acid in it about once a month.  In between I use anything with bleach in it.  Even with a water softener it will still develop a noticeable mineral line but the cleaners with HCl dissolve it with no issues.

 

[twintubdexter]

It was a terrific job...

You know how many Korky flappers I bought as a plumbing buyer for Orchard Supply hardware?...a whole lot!