And End To My Low Flow (Toilet) Woes

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rp2813

rp2813

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Joined
Jun 16, 2006
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Specifically, an American Standard "Cadet" 4000 series.  My model has the skirt all the way around the bottom for easy cleaning, but otherwise is like most other low flow (1.28 GPF) Cadets.

 

The flapper that came with the toilet is a Fluidmaster 540.  The flapper itself is plastic, so the seal is just an opaque rubber-like ring that can be removed.  These rings are notorious for developing water blisters, which is what mine did, and leaking would ensue, with the tank topping itself off perhaps every 30 minutes, if not more often.

 

I couldn't find either the ring or the entire Fluidmaster 540 assembly at two stores I tried, so I decided to go with a Korky 3060 universal fit flapper for 3" flush valves. 

 

I'm glad I did.  With the Korky, the bowl now flushes out completely instead of the half-flush I got with the Fuidmaster.  The Korky is also silent.  The Fluidmaster made a loud "thud" when it came down.  I no longer need to hold the handle down to fully clear the bowl, perhaps not even for big jobs, but I'll know more about that tomorrow.

 

If you hate the half-flush BS as much as I do, the Korky universal fit flapper is the answer for A.S. Cadets, and possibly for other makes as well.  It installs as easily as any flapper I've dealt with (there are adjustments to make prior to installation, which involve exposing or covering holes in the side of the flapper "bulb" -- covering them all is the setting for the Cadet and that makes all the difference), and it has a five year guarantee as opposed to one year with the American Standard/FM replacement. 

 

After I had purchased the Korky, for the hell of it I checked on line to see what the correct Fluidmaster replacement would have cost.  The price wasn't much different from the Korky.  I also read the reviews on the Fluidmaster, and there were several complaints about blisters forming on the flapper ring.  If you're careful, you can pop them with a pin on the top side, which will allow the ring to seal again.  A free fix, but I'm far more pleased after installing the Korky. 

 

If you have a low flow toilet with 3" valve and are disappointed with its performance, the Korky may be the answer.  It fits quite a few different makes.

 

The linked site has a video that illustrates some of what I've described here.

 

108398_usn.jpg


 

108398_03_usn.jpg


http://https//www.ebarnett.com/Sku/...9&cadevice=c&gclid=CN3l5_CZxtMCFYqGfgodgyQN8g
 
WOW-I have that toilet also and the same flapper did make it better.I then placed a 1 inch pvc coupling atop the flush valve riser to raise the water level.You don't even have to glue it on-Try it
 
My '95 Elgier was one of the first supposedly low flow toilets. There is what flushes down in a cut off gallon plastic bottle in the tank so you still need to help it flush out in an old fashioned retrofitted toilet sold new in '95. I am going to replace it sometime soon but every time I even tried to replace a toilet myself it never turned out well. So I got to try to find someone to do it, which wont be easy.
 
I remember those Tim.I took a razor knife and cut it mostly out,It made a normal toilet out of it.I like a toilet that flushes like Al Bundy's--BAWOOSH.
 
Duke, I like the way you think!  I may try the coupler trick, as I currently have the water level set to about 3/8" below the top of the overflow pipe.

 

I do like the Cadet.  It hasn't backed up on me yet, unlike the relatively new wall-mount Gerber in the master bath.  That thing chokes on a regular basis and it has nothing to do with the low flow, as the bowl clears completely for small jobs without holding the handle down.  It's just a really bad design, but was the only wall-mount I could find that wasn't pressure-assisted.  I am not a fan of pressure-assist systems.
 
I've had two of those Korky flappers fail prematurely on me, both in Toto Drakes. Two years is all I got, ended up sticking an OEM flapper back in and it's been fine for over two years (ironically also a Korky but different design).

The "sherbet pale" Eljers were some of the worst pieces of junk out there. Used one regularly for awhile and plunging was part of the routine every single time. Even with those damn pales cut out they flush horrendously. Pretty much any 1990s low flow is god awful.

There's two low flows in this house (one of them a Drake), and my bathroom has a water guzzling Cadet from the late 60s in it that I picked up from a salvage yard. Positively one of the best toilets ever made, only have to scrub the bowl once a month compared to the multiple times a week the Drake before it required.
 
I considered

getting an American standard toilet in our most recent project, but they only come in white, bone, and almond.
American Standard is now owned by a Japanese company.
We got the one piece Kohler San Souci comfort height elongated. Also a 1.28 gallon flush, and it is a powerful flush. It should be for almost $800 in Cashmere. Not the battery powered flush either. Batteries inside the tank? No thanks.
The zero out mounting bolts with their depth gages are a pain. You can't see around the sides when setting it in place on them. I even drew a pencil outline of the toilet on the tile. No big deal. The flat bolts may look nice, but I got regular tall ones, cut them off and painted the plastic caps to match close.
Tip; if the bolts won't stand up when mounting a toilet, put chewing gum on them at the base on the flange.
 
I have a couple of Waterridge low flow commodes here. One is older than the other. It has what looks like a proprietary flush valve assembly. The newer one has some sort of Fluidmaster valve assembly. Both are monolithic incorporating the float and valve in one tower. Both are dual flush. I think they are 1.1 gal or 1.6 gal rated. The older one seems to work better than the newer one. But both get the job done. It's rare that I have to repeat a full flush.

A leaking flush valve sort of defeats the whole water conservation goal, no?

LOL.
 
The house I purchased last year has an Eljer in it. My brother actually installed it when he purchased and renovated the house in 89-90. It has that stupid jug around the flapper in the tank. I hate it. It clogs almost every time. Compounding the problem is the hole in the bowl which is too small. I have the 1951 American Standard that was original to the house when it was built. Reinstalling that is on my to-do list. I have no doubt I wont have to deal with clogs with the American Standard. [this post was last edited: 4/28/2017-10:47]
 
Fluidmaster Flapper

Fluidmaster states in their reviews to give them a call and they will replace the flapper ring at no cost. The flapper model for replacing the 540 American Standard is model 5401GB (Sold at Home Depot) and model 5403 at all the other hardware stores and comes with a 10 year warranty.
The Cadet using 1.28 GPF (gallon per flush) is designed to flush less water than the standard 1.6 GPF. I have found that even with the less amount of water used it clears the bowl just as easily and the remaining water is not needed.

Before making your 1.28 into a 3.0 GPF get a replacement by calling Fluidmaster or pick up a new flapper. The money you save in water will be more in the long run.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Fluidmaster-3-in-Toilet-Tank-Flapper-for-Glacier-Bay-5401GBP4/205114939
 
@fmtech

Thanks for the info but I'm fine with the Korky, and at this point it's water under the closet. 

 

Even with the thorough flushing action the Korky provides, the toilet still uses far less water than a vintage (+/-) 5GPF model.  I don't even think the Cadet's tank can hold five gallons.

 

The one store I didn't check was Home Depot.  I had already been to Lowe's and Orchard Supply, both of which had minimal Fluidmaster flapper options, so felt odds were against HD carrying what I needed.  I don't know what Fluidmaster's objective is, but it seems counter productive to give Home Depot an exclusive on such a commonly needed item.  If either Lowe's or OSH had carried just the FM flapper ring, I'd have purchased that at much lower cost than the Korky replacement, and been none the wiser about what I consider to be desirable attributes of a flapper made by Fluidmaster's chief competitor.  You may want to share my experience with your marketing department.

 

 
 
I *think* I wound up getting a Korky to rebuild the old American Standard low boy toilet that was in the master bath addition (added in the 70's, I think). But that thing, while it looked great, had a custom curved bowl top that few seats could fit. And of course it drank water. It also didn't flush all that reliably. So I replaced it with a low flow waterridge, which has generally worked very well.
 
My AS Champion was filling frequently a couple years ago.  I had read about the gaskets going bad on the flappers so I replaced it with a Korky gasket made to fit the original AS plastic flapper design.  But the toilet kept doing it.  Turns out it was the water level in the tank set too high and it was seeping out through the bowl fill hose.  I lowered the water a little and it hasn't done it since.  I may try the 1"PVC coupling thing to see if it works.  Although, my Champion truly is just that....a Champion!  I threw the plunger away!!!
 
On Cleaning

Maybe I should start a new thread on this, but will try here first.

 

My Cadet came with some sort of anti-microbal/non-stick/easy-clean bowl coating, and cleaning instructions advise to use a mild soap solution as opposed to anything abrasive.  We have hard water here, and all toilets tend to develop calcified rings around the water's edge.  Dish soap doesn't cut it.

 

I've used Lime-Away on this toilet, which may or may not have compromised the special coating already, but I'm hesitant to start using truly abrasive cleansers or a pumice stone. 

 

Should I consider this coating bunk (I'm fairly certain it's just a gimmick) and go ahead and use normal bowl cleaners?  I don't want to create an unsightly situation.
 
I know what you mean Ralph. My Elgier, most horrid purchase I ever made, as in an earlier posting here. My water is a 9 out of 10 on hardness. My water softner with rust remover salt does an ok job but that ring in the toilet is there every morning. About once a month I use "The Works" cleaner and it is much easier to just give a quick brush to daily.
 
I don't think normal bowl cleaners (like those bottles with angled necks from Lysol or Chlorox) are abrasive. But then I don't know if chlorine bleach (or whatever Lysol contains) would leach the anti-microbial substances out of the glaze.

But I do know that my commodes require weekly cleaning, or more, even if they are used only for #1. The water here is moderately soft (4 grains), so hard water mineral deposits don't seem to be the main issue, just ... grunge ...

So I'd try some of the commercial bowl cleaners. If those don't do it, maybe Bon Ami. I would avoid harsh abrasives like pumice.

PS-Got STPP?
 
My Champion has that antimicrobial  finish too...it doesn't work.  I use the Lysol cleaner with hydrochloric acid in it about once a month.  In between I use anything with bleach in it.  Even with a water softener it will still develop a noticeable mineral line but the cleaners with HCl dissolve it with no issues.
 
LOL Joe!  Somebody else is still doing so, and it would appear that the Korky rep picks up the tab for some really good lunches.

 

Thanks for the cleaning advice.  We all agree that low flow = high maintenance.  I do need to get in the habit of brushing the bowl on a daily basis. 

 

I've successfully removed the mineral ring with Lime Away and a green scrub pad in the past.  How much worse could a pumice stone be?  Once the ring is gone, I'll be incentivized to use the brush and keep another ring from forming.
 
My house has two builder grade Pro Flo 1.6 flush toilets in it installed when they rehabbed it before I bought it. They are 5 years old and the whole flush valve setup in mine started leaking and not stopping the flush when tank was full. It also plugs easily and takes a couple of full hold flushes to clear and sometimes a plunging . The design is cheap, has small water passages and has already been discontinued. I replaced the setup with a Fluid Master PerforMAX fill valve with leak sentry. It's a lot louder but fills quickly and will not keep refilling the bowl and tank if it leaks down once the flapper or something wears out.
7 year warranty and it mostly works fine but still barely overfills the tank after adjusting it as far as I could.
I plan to eventually replace it with a better dual flush 1.2/1 as water here is very spendy. Replaced moms old master suite toilet with a cheap Home Depot Glacier Bay 1.2 that actually had mostly great reviews and it has worked perfectly for them so far and doesn't plug so might try their dual flush version as it also gets great reviews and is well priced.
Can't afford a 500 or whatever comode when I replace it so we'll see what I end up with someday.
 
I guess to a point

we still get what we pay for. Builders don't always use quality fixtures, and if you do upgrade, they may scalp you. They get good quantity discounts.
I installed a Korky flush valve and flapper in my older Kohler Wellington toilet, and it has worked fine for a year.
Chlorine in the water or other minerals break down the rubber parts.
 
Afraid to change

We have a long line to the main sewer, probably about 100' from the farthest toilet. We have added two clean outs due to all of the problems clogging the line. Now we have 4 cleanouts total and no line clogs for a couple of years. I feel the existing 4 gallon flush units we have might be needed for the long line to push the flow through. I came close to changing last year because of the drought here. But we were not cut back by the water company so I left well enough alone. We do have our own Ridgid electric drain cleaner because of the problems.
 
Cadet 3

"Powerwash" makes me think it has a pressure assisted flush system.

 

That price isn't all that bad considering it's a relatively uncommon corner toilet.
 
Ralph,

I would hold off on using any abrasives on the bowl.

Instead, if you already haven't tried it, shut off the supply water line to the toilet. Flush it so that the water level is well below the lime line. Then liberally apply lime away, or other anti-scale product. I'm not sure, but a phosphoric acid based solution might work (check the label to make sure it's ok for porcelain). I have a gallon jug from Smart & Final called "Lime Gone". It's basically phosphoric acid. For showers and sinks etc, it recommends diluting 50/50 with water, brushing on the deposit, and then rinsing off. But it also cautions that some surfaces might get etched. Caveat cleaner.

I would definitely not use a green scrub pad. Those have silicon oxide in them and it's harder than glass, and will scratch up the bowl so it will never be the same again.

http://www.jondon.com/betco-stix-2.html?gclid=CLaP69ae09MCFQRufgodbqIJ-w
 
Thanks guys.  So a pumice stone is definitely out, or are we just talking about avoiding cleaning solutions that contain abrasives?  The upstairs toilet is old school 1960, and since it gets used little, it develops a mineral ring and the pumice stone makes short work of it.

 

Rich, I've had success with Lime-Away in the past, but that was with a green scrub pad, and forcing the water out of the bowl first (I see no evidence of damage to the porcelain, though).  I think I'll do something similar, but will coat the ring with the Lime-Away and then walk away for at least an hour.  What should I use as a substitute for the green pad?

 

Meanwhile, I'm loving that I only need to push down on the lever and let go, rather than hold it down.  The Korky sends through enough water to clear the bowl for all jobs, big and small.  I couldn't be more delighted.
 
Ralph,

when I was a teenager we moved to the North Sonoma Co. coast and we had a well. The well water had a lot of iron in it and stained the toilets terribly. My Mom went to the hardware store in Guerneville and asked them what she could use to get rid if these stains. They sold her Whink and it worked like a charm. It's still available and it also works on hard water deposits. You just squirt it along the edge under the bowl rim and it drains down and just like magic the rust deposits disappear. I believe the active ingredient is oxycilic (sp?) acid.
HTH,
Eddie

http://www.whink.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cEcommerce.Product&ProductID=35676&CategoryID=-1
 

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