Are we there yet? Heat pump dryers

[warmsecondrinse]

Just a few weeks ago I read (sorry, I forget where) yet again about heat pump dryers being sold/about to be sold in the U.S. by Miele, LG, etc.

I did some googling and found nothing recent. To muddy the waters further, it was obvious that some of the writers/posters assumed that any ventless dryer was automatically a heat pump dryer simply because it was ventless. Yes, I know that makes no sense, but there you are...

My conclusion is that there are no heat pump dryers currently sold in the U.S. However, I'd love to be wrong. Does any one know of any heat pump dryers actually for sale in the USA?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[launderess]

Not that one has seen.

Vent-less tumble dryers largely have a bad name in the USA and at best serve a niche market. Cannot see that changing enough to warrant bringing an "improved" condenser type dryer to these shores.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

That's what I thought. I was sure that if heat pump dryers really were available I'd've heard about it here or from some other reliable source.

I'll only go ventless if I absolutely have to in order to avoid the laundromat.

Thanks again.

 

[logixx]

LG is goint to release its DLHX4072V Hybrid heat-pump dryer this summer, according to Consumer Reports. It has a heat-pumo and a conventionlal electric heating element, thus the Hybrid. These units have been available, although in a smaller 24" version, in Europe for some time.

 

[mrb627]

Speed Mode?

16.8 min per KG isn't very quick, is it?

Malcolm

 

[paulc]

Malcolm,

Condenser dryers always take longer to dry than vented. 151.2 minutes to dry 9kg of laundry isn't too bad for a condenser dryer. My last dryer, a condenser unit, took 2 hours to dry 5kg of laundry. I now have a vented dryer, thankfully, an can do 6kg in less than an hour.

 

[logixx]

Heat-pump dryers are generally not that fast. There were some that were alsmost as fast a normal condenser dryers but the consumer is always looking for the next best ultra-efficient appliance. Therefore, heat-pump dryers got slower and slower.

With a full 8 kg load, which is 17.6 lbs, of standardized cotton items spun at 1,000 rpm, which translates to a residual moisture content of 60%, I have found the following times stated on the manufacturer's websites:

Miele A++ efficiency = 149 minutes

Bosch A+++ efficiency = 187 minutes
Bosch A++ efficiency = 138 minutes

AEG A+++ efficiency = 215 minutes
AEG A++ efficiency = 170 minutes

Keep in mind that the drums of these dryers are about half the size of US dryers, while the load capacity is almost the same - we're talking about a FULL drum of clothes here.

Switzerland has already outlawed anything but HP dryers to be sold and vented dryers are rapidly disappearing from manufacturer's homepages, too. I'm glad I got my hands on a regular condenser Bosch that gets things over with in around an hour and would most certainly buy a vented dryer if I could.

 

[mrb627]

Well...

They probably wont be much of a hit here in the states...

Malcolm

 

[logixx]

Well, I guess that's what many people said about front loaders, too. And then came Energy Star, Tier III Energy Efficiency and all that...

 

[launderess]

As one recalls dryers here in the USA are not subject to much energy regulation because they all pretty much are the same. What does vary is heating power and source of fuel.

Some places such as California IIRC want residents to move away from electric to gas dryers or maybe I've got that in reverse.

Where electric power rates are cheaper than gas (natural or propane) that is usually what people have installed, or again vice-versa. Here in NYC aside from small compact units/portables most every dryer I've seen or known uses natural or propane gas.

 

[logixx]

dryers in the USA are not subject to much energy regulation

Well, that used to be the case in Europe as well. But then heat-pump dryers entered the scene and made "normal" dryers look like huge energy hogs. Just look at Switzerland; they basically made anything but heapt-pump dryers illegal - from sale, owning one is still okay.

Even commercial models, both small and large, are offered in HP versions from Miele, for example. And said company has already removed vented dryers from its US homepage altogether.

 

[mrb627]

Prius Market

Perhaps the Prius marketplace will purchase these, but the average American will pass on them. Clothes would dry quicker on a clothesline, but wait, we cannot have those either. Seems our Energy focus is off track somehow.

Malcolm

 

[launderess]

I'm with Mrb627

Cannot see these heat pump dryers giving any major competition to what most Americans are used to having.

Miele's large vented dryer to match the 4XXX series washers was simply a hot mess. IIRC it was the first such dryer especially in gas that Miele had built and it like the washers of the series had all kinds of problems.

The "Little Giant" series vented dryer is still sold in North America, but yes Miele has discontinued their "standard European capacity" models of same. You can still find them in shops or other vendors but once the supply is gone that is that.

The decision to move away from vented dryers will add yet another nail into Miele's coffin in terms of US sales. You can look all over the Internet and classified adverts and find washers and dryers from that brand for sale, some NIB. The capacity is just too small for most American households, and non-vented dryers simply are hated by and large with a passion.

Miele, Asko, Bosch et al, all have made serious mistakes with the American domestic laundry appliance market. The USA is *NOT* Europe and often aside from trendy and or upscale early adaptors the general population at large does not care for their offerings.

When Miele launched with great fanfare their uber-sized laundry appliances they were supposed to be near commercial quality and rock solid to go up against Whirlpool's Duet. Well we know how it ended and the things were pulled from the market barely three years or so after introduction.

 

[logixx]

Funny, I had to think of Prius owners as well. I remember seeing tons of them in Los Angeles. Everywhere.

Just browsing a few websites

bosch.de - 2 vented, 7 condenser, 24 heat-pump dryers
siemens.de - 2 vented, 8 condenser, 17 heat-pump dryers
miele.de - 1 vented, 9 condenser, 14 heat-pump dryers
aeg.de - 3 vented, 9 condenser, 21 heat-pump dryers
lg.de - only heat-pump dryers

amazon.de - 28 vented, 108 condenser, 167 heat-pump dryers

Seems that we're once again at the forefront of the green movement. Not sure if I really like that, though. Saving energy is great but tumbling clothes for up to three hours won't do them much good. So you save energy but spend more on clothes?

 

[logixx]

<a name="start_51687.741118">"Miele has discontinued their "standard European capacity" </a><a name="start_51687.741118">[vented] </a><a name="start_51687.741118">models"</a>

 

And so has Bosch USA. :-/

 

Maybe I should get another dryer for storage. Vented dryers to us are like Speed Queen top loaders to you - get them while you can or go vintage. I wish American dryers were more readily available but they really only seem to pop up on eBay UK - used, of course.

 

[launderess]

Bosch USA also like MieleUSA discontinued their "uber" sized laundry appliances after series of problems. The "Nexxt" series like the Miele huge capacity washers and dryers promised commercial quality in domestic machines, but again it didn't work out.

This is why I say various "imported" technology is not always a hit with the American market. Long as there are plenty of persons with reference points to top loaders and fast vented dryers that is the standard everything else is measured.

 

[foraloysius]

The Miele standard capacity vented dryers are still on the website:

http://www.mieleusa.com/products/mo...ppliances&thirdL=Laundry Care&fourthL=Dryers&

 

[logixx]

But is says:

 

<span class="note">"Retired item: Check with dealer for availability"
</span>

 

[foraloysius]

I guess I missed that. Duh! lol

 

[launderess]

Got Ya Didn't They!

*LOL*

Almost was taken in myself until clicked the actual model numbers. Guess again MieleUSA only has what is left in their warehouse and no more vented dryers are being sent from Germany. Dealer supply may vary one supposes.

 

[launderess]

Miele heat pump dryers for commercial use:

http://www.heatpumpdryers.com/

US government examines the question of if heat pump dryers make sense for the American market: http://eetd.lbl.gov/sites/all/files/do_heat_pump_clothes_dryers_make_sense_for_the_us_market.pdf

 

[logixx]

Something's not quite right with the format of the video but it'll do:

 

 

[logixx]

As an alternative, Electrolux is working on a dryer that, from what I got out of skimming through the patent, recycles some of the process air. Picture 2 in this patent shows an IQ Touch dryer so we're not talking about a European product here.

 

http://www.google.com/patents/US201...a=X&ei=wpEfU5PdIIeK2AX-k4GgBw&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA

 

[arbilab]

Has nobody/anybody capitalized upon reducing the atmospheric pressure in a closed-loop dryer? Yes the vacuum pump uses power, adds cost and weight, as does the cabinetry to support subatmosphere barometrics. But it's SO much easier to evaporate water without adding heat by reducing pressure. And we're not talking surface-of-the-moon. Top-of-Mt-Everest will do, where the boiling point drops to 160F.

 

[washman]

However,

'Well, I guess that's what many people said about front loaders, too. And then came Energy Star, Tier III Energy Efficiency and all that."

No, these came about due to government interference in a market economy.

And not too many souls are entirely happy about that but most just suck it up, complain to each other and accept what the good Gov't tells them.

 

[henene4]

Well, I did think about it!

But others have done it more professional. A swizz institut did a research on this!

 

[alineber]

Washman you're great!

"And not too many souls are entirely happy about that but most just suck it up, complain to each other and accept what the good Gov't tells them"

As Kung Fu would say, "You speak words of wisdom and truth." I will never conform to this Brainwashing, Eco Shouting, Gov't Tent Revival Meeting. Let them keep right on singing "Give Me That Old Time Eco Religion", while I continue to use my Anti-Eco Speed Queen top loader and dryer until they wear out. If Speed Queen stops making these washers and dryers, I will only use vintage machines.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

Speaking of vintage....

Suppose you buy a new machine. You purchase a new one. Production of that new one costs resources (including water, if only for the bathrooms of the people who assemble it). Total up all the costs and resources and a set of figures. Then the old washer must be carted away and there are costs associated with that as well as with any recycling. Total those figures and add them to the first to get a grand total cost of the resources of replacing the broken machine. Now add yearly operations costs and get a grand total over 'X' number of years.

Now. take your vintage machine you've saved from recycling. Now, starting from the negative recycling cost (figured out above), start ADDING the yearly costs of using the less efficient, vintage machine over 'X' years.

How many years have to go by before the the cost of the vintage rises to the cost of the new one? I bet it'll be more than the life expectancy of the vintage machine!

Ergo, you're saving the planet by going vintage! You get to be a tree-hugger, thumb your nose at government over-regulation, AND have clean clothes all at the same time.

 

[logixx]

@ washman

 

That's what I was trying to say: government making descisions for us. While Germany as a whole seems to be greener than the US, not everyone is "totally, super, uber happy"about their washer taking three hours to do a cycle and the dryer taking another three hours. BUT our government made the discision for us and simply removed some appliances from the market place. Appliances that they deem to be too inefficient. This fall, vacuum cleaners and range hoods will be required to carry an energy label. The good thing about that label is that it also includes performance evaluations. So appliances that save energy but do a miserable can hardly be sold.

 

In real life, most consumers rarely use the high-efficiency cycles because they simply take too long and manufacturers have responded to that. Now, you get to chose between HE or fast(er) cycles. Case in point: Bosch's most efficient dishwashers take 3:15 hrs. for the energy label ECO cycle or 1:05 hrs. for the speedier version, if one presses the "speed" botton. Germany's most efficient washer from Bosch takes 6:30 hrs. for the energy label cycle or less than an hour for the "speed" button version.

 

[alineber]

Warmsecondrinse

Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!  Yes folks, we have a winner!

 

Wow! Now I can be a tree-hugging vintage appliance owner without the guilt and shame of owning these new high efficiency Government approved  appliances.  I feel so much better about myself.  LOL!

 

But there are so many things I will never be able to enjoy with these Eco Government approved appliances.

Like:

1. Wearing less than truly clean clothing.

2. Waiting for hours and hours for my dishes and clothes to finish their cycle.

3. Getting to know my appliance repairman on a first name basis.

4. Having to buy new appliances every 5 years.

5. The joy of buying cleaning products, to acctually clean the inside of the appliances, so they won't smell. 

6. Having to wash my dishes before I put them in my dishwasher.

 

Oh well, I'll try not to cry too much.  LOL!

 

 

 

Allen