Automatic dishwasher detergent that will not dull dishes?

[helicaldrive]

When I was growing up, my family always filled both dishwasher detergent cups, and as time went by our dishes faded until all colors were gone and then they became so dull that using eating utensils was like scratching your fingernails on a blackboard. Ugh!!! I simply cannot stand dulled dishes and etched glasses.

All my adult life I have avoided that fate for my dishes by using Cascade powder sparingly.

Then oh, 4 years ago my Newton, IA Maytag dishwasher had to be replaced and I bought a Whirlpool-made Maytag, the last holdout model with a chopping blade and no filter to clean. Soon after, to my dismay, with this new machine Cascade began making my wine glasses cloudy and etching lines into glasses. And the dishwasher bottom got filmy.

A friend’s Mom suggested Finish. Got a box. Problem solved. As soon as I figured out the right dose— halfway up to the soft water line in the cup — I got the best cleaning ever, film came off glasses, etching stopped, dishwasher stayed clean.

But now overnight, Finish powder is nowhere to be found. I don’t know if it’s a COVID shortage or if they discontinued it.

BTW I have a water softener. And I never select the options to boost water temp because I know that contributes to etching.

I am afraid with soft water, pacs are too strongly dosed and will dull everything. And I can’t use them anyway — Cascade Platinum and Finish Quantum Max, which I tried, oversuds and suds lock the pump.

Someone online said Lemi-Shine pacs solved her etched glass woes, but I’m afraid even Lemi-Shine might etch with my soft water since they are pacs and the dose can’t be adjusted.

The only brands of powder left, where the user can dose it, are Cascade (no thanks, been there done that, unless P&G recently reformulated it?), Walmart Great Value, Target house brand, Seventh Generation and Grab Green. Are there any others? And are any of these effective at cleaning yet easy on dishes and glasses?

Anybody’s experiences would be greatly appreciated!

 

[hobarthero]

Available Online

I was able to find it on Amazon and some other retailers online with a quick google search. I would say to stock up that way if it’s your preferred cleaner and you can’t find it locally.
-Shannon

Amazon.com

 

[infusor]

Dishwasher etching

Helicaldrive, do you rinse your dishes off before loading them in the dishwasher? If there is no food residue for the enzymes to attach to it will etch your dishes,it's even mentioned by consumer reports to not pre rinse as it wastes water and may cause etching. Worth a try. My mother and aunt both have glasses at their house that are etched and cloudy as they both rinse their dishes before loading the dishwasher, however my glasses are crystal clear and i load my dishes with dried food on them, they always come out sparkling, i use cascade complete powder in my 4 year old ge potscrubber portable dishwasher.

 

[qsd-dan]

What kind of dishes do you have? My Corelle CorningWare has never faded in 36 years of dishwashers that use brute force. 

 

Soft water generally means you need to significantly cut back on detergent. You can experiment by using very small amounts carefully measured out and slowly increasing the dose until the dishes are clean.

 

[helicaldrive]

Thank you

HobartHero, I knew it is available at Amazon, albeit for scalped prices of $12 per box. But — THANK YOU—your response put it in perspective for me. And I took out less than a minute to buy a pack of two boxes. Done. I’ll be set for two years.

You made me realize: so what if they’re scalping? The scalped price is still way less than the cost per load with pacs. I already figured out the solution to the problem long ago. The solution is still available. Scalped price or not, it’s still way cheaper than pacs. P*ss on it. I have bigger fish to fry.

 

[askolover]

Some of my Princess House crystal bowls were becoming cloudy (no biggie, they were all found at Goodwill and easily replaced). I cleaned them with Barkeeper's friend and it took off the cloudiness.  They are still clear now and am using professional Premiere chlorine based powder.  This is my second bucket.  I think they changed the formula because the granules are shaped differently than before and the color is different...plus the dishes don't come out feeling weird anymore...almost like I have used Jetdry (which I don't since it causes so many foaming issues with my softened water).  I don't know how it would work in a modern trickle machine though.  My KUDI23 and Maytag DWC7602 are over 20 years old.

 

[reactor]

detergents/etching/cleaning

Etching occurs when detergents pull the metal ions out of glassware and the process is exaggerated in soft water as there are no calcium ions to attach themselves to the detergent molecules and reduce their aggressiveness.

With hard water your detergent loses cleaning ability, pretty much in proportion to the hardness level of your water. The good side is, since the detergent is rendered less effective by the hard water, it is not as aggressive toward the glassware. BUT you lose cleaning ability and you may replace etching with hard water spots and film/dirt residue.

With soft water, the dishwasher detergents are at their best in cleaning.....very aggressive as there is nothing for the detergent molecules to bind with except the dirt on your dishes. If there is not a lot of food residue on your dishes, then the molecules will attach themselves to the next best thing, the metal ions in your glasses.

Soft water will provide the absolute best cleaning and shine but will, over time, etch glassware.

As others have mentioned, DON'T rinse your dishes. Tilt and load. That is tilt off large or hard wastes and that's it. At most, do a light scrape.

You mentioned hot water. Technically, it is not the hot water, per se, that amplifies etching. It is the increased time for your dishwasher to run in the wash component of the cycle, to bring the water up to temp.

You are much better off to turn up your water tank if you need water heating. I keep mine about 138. It is a gas hot water heating so it fluctuates more than electric. But if you aim for about 140 degrees F entering the machine, you should not need to use the dishwasher's own internal water heating. (The Golden Rule...with soft water you reduce wash time, with hard water you increase wash time.)

So, remember the two key components of detergent etching are soft-water and time. Your detergent likes soft water, so keep that variable constant and reduce the time of your wash cycle Turn up your hot water tank and quite using your dishwasher to heat your water. the longer your detergent is in contact with glassware, the more time it has to etch them.

Secondly, your detergent's molecules love to attack food wastes, that's what they are created to do and all they know. Make them happy by giving them dirty dishes and they will have so much fun and be so busy they will not have the time to go to your glassware to pull out the metal ions.

Just like little children. If you want to keep them out of trouble, you keep them busy with constructive activities and you don't give them a lot of free time. If you do, they will do mischievous things because they are bored.

So.. don't let your dishwasher detergent's molecules get bored and start bullying your glasses, keep them busy with food wastes. AND don't give them a lot of extra free time to get into trouble by extending your wash cycle to heat the water.

Remember...1.) Have HOT water entering your machine, 2.) Load DIRTY dishes, and 3.) REDUCE the contact time of detergent with your dishes.

Make your dishwasher detergent molecules happy and they will serve you well!

 

[rolls_rapide]

You need Zinc Acetate...

To slow the damage to glassware and crockery, you require 'sacrificial zinc' to be in the detergent, or the rinse aid, or preferably, both.

Regarding Finish USA, it is surprising that the listed top Finish Quantum Ultimate pod is apparently not equipped with such a feature.

I suspect that the new Finish Quantum Infinity Shine pods might have Glass Protection - but Finish USA has a weird policy... they don't list it as a detergent, yet it appears in the money-saving 'bundles'?

However, FINISH® Powerball® Max In 1™ Tablets apparently are glass-protection capable. They have Zinc Acetate in the formulation.

Finish 'Jet-Dry' rinse-aid has Zinc Acetate in the formulation.
As does the 'Hard Water' Jet-Dry variant.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Regarding P&G 'Cascade'...

Apparently the Cascade Gel liquid detergents might have either Zinc Carbonate or Zinc Sulphate. Some of the ingredient data sheets seem to be 'lost in space'.

Surprisingly, the Actionpacs appear not to have glass protection.

And the Rinse-aid formulation listing is utter rubbish.

 

[stevet]

Crazy suggestion..Maybe give it a try

When I was living in our prior home with a water softener, I had residue buildup on all the stainless-steel parts of my KitchenAid tall tub machine and some etching on the glasses. It was always and still is a struggle to keep my wife from pre-rinsing the dishes so much but she is seeing the light now and even puts more pots and pans in the machine now.
I found I had best results from the finish packs with the red ball which has a small amount of phosphates in the ingredient list. But still had foaming issues.

What I did was take the blocks and threw them into the blender to break them up into a powder and then was able to use the dosing lines of the detergent cup to actually get better results and no more residue in the machine. If the dishes were really dirty, I just had to add more detergent. But even on the Light/China cycle everything came clean.

Now we have hard water (avg 6 gpg) and I actually get my best results using Walmart brand packs and rarely if ever need more than a single pack to get fabulous results and don't use a rinse aid either. Once in a while I will throw an extras pack into the bottom of the machine for a prewash boost when there is a lot of crusty or hard to deal with soils.
With the Automatic Purge Filtration and soil sensing on that same tall tub, I can hear it changing out the prewash water to purge the excess detergent and soils before draining and moving into the main wash.

 

[stevet]

pic of pacs!

Here is the product I was talking about from Walmart. These are the least expensive pacs they have on the shelves. Just be careful. Some sizes of these are priced more expensively than other of the same products. And remember to divide the price by the number of pacs. The unit pricing labels sometimes show the cost per pac and other labels are priced by the ounce! Go figure that one!

 

[rolls_rapide]

Cascade Rinse Aid

According to Walmart's enlarged photos, 'Cascade Power Dry Rinse Aid' does have glass protection technology... This time it is in the form of Zinc Chloride.

 

[bradfordwhite]

Agreed #3

diddo on the softwater. It makes a difference. The film on dishes can be from hard water build up.

If you have softwater, using too much detergent will harm the dishes. Those dishes can be soaked and washed by hand using typical dish detergent and generous baking soda on a sponge.

I've used Finish in a Bosch dw and the dishes always came out clean.

I've also tried the dish detergent from Dollartree and...not so much.

 

[helicaldrive]

Thanks all

For taking time to reply!

 

[sudsmaster]

I've been using the Finish Max in One powerball tabs for the past several years in my Bosch SHU43CU dishwasher, with generally excellent results. When there are problems, it's generally because a filter is clogged. I have not found a need to use any extra rinse aid, either. Sometimes for a really full load, I'll toss another tab into the flatware holder just in case. But haven't seen a need for that in over a year.

The water here is about half-way between soft and medium.

 

[iej]

Haven’t had etched glasses in a very long time. Most detergents seem to have that solved these days.

Joanna Lumley (during the first year of Ab Fab playing Patsy Stone) extolling the benefits of Fairy Dishwasher Powder with Glazeguard in 1993.

 

[givemehotwater]

For what it's worth...

While it's just my personal opinion, I think that it's the modern detergent's that use Sodium Citrate, and Citric Acid -- that seem to swiftly remove patterns, and cause etching.

I'll say this confidently... I've got clear tumbler glasses, pyrex measuring cups, fiesta ware, and silverware that has been through literal hundreds & hundreds of dishwashing cycles, in 1GPG Softened Water. All of it, looks pretty much the same.

And... all of it, has been washed in Cascade Institutional with Chlorine Bleach, and Cascade Complete Powder exclusively, on end. All in the same 2010, GE Monogram Dishwasher with Heated Dry, and the Hot Water Booster enabled. No Rinse Aid.

If you ask me -- I think the Cascade does a fantastic job. It contains "Shine Shield" or Zinc Carbonate, which seems to prevent the damage altogether.

The only time -- I've ever seen etching, is when I used Regular Finish Powerball Tablets. Those caused little lines, all of my glasses, after two cycles. And I think... it was the Citrate Content, in the tablets, that did the damage.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

late to the party

Late to the party, but please don't pre-wash your dishes. I put crusty dishes in the dishwasher with Cascade Platinum Plus and Cascade Power Dry rinse aid and everything comes out shiny.

 

[rinso]

Because of their convenience, we used detergent pods for a few years. In 2010, my late partner/husband moved to a home that had naturally very soft water, and it took about a year for the daily glassware to get etched. I wish P&G or other manufacturers would make a soft water pod. I have had to go back to Cascade powder so I could control the dosage. The detergent cup in my machine has measuring lines, so that makes it easier. No more etching of glassware or rainbow reflections.