Belt Drive Pair
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Interesting Lawrence! That washer is actually a Direct Drive. Nonetheless, cool. It may be a spin drain as this is a 1983-1986 model.
Gordon
Gordon
Er...Kenmoreguy64......
couldn't that waher in the craigslist ad be this one?
couldn't that waher in the craigslist ad be this one?
couldn't that waher in the craigslist ad be this one?
Nope.
I have two reasons for that. First, the lid is too big. That is probably the easiest way to tell a BD from a DD of this era.
Also, the cycle layout isn't quite right. It is very similar, but just off by a couple timer clicks. The washer in the advertisement has a pre-wash cycle which the one on C/L does not. There was only one timer used in ALL the 3/4/5 cycle washers of this period in Belt-Drives (Timer 381860 and it's predecessors) and the delicate cycle is too low on the facia, as well the big gold OFF section is slightly off-kilter for a BD timer.
Here's a pic of how that console would look in Belt-Drive form (there were a couple 1981/82 models made with this same configuration, lacking the Pre-wash):
Nope.
I have two reasons for that. First, the lid is too big. That is probably the easiest way to tell a BD from a DD of this era.
Also, the cycle layout isn't quite right. It is very similar, but just off by a couple timer clicks. The washer in the advertisement has a pre-wash cycle which the one on C/L does not. There was only one timer used in ALL the 3/4/5 cycle washers of this period in Belt-Drives (Timer 381860 and it's predecessors) and the delicate cycle is too low on the facia, as well the big gold OFF section is slightly off-kilter for a BD timer.
Here's a pic of how that console would look in Belt-Drive form (there were a couple 1981/82 models made with this same configuration, lacking the Pre-wash):
mrb627
Well-known member
Love it.
Love that the lid stop on that Kenmore is perfectly adjusted at the 11:30 position Ken...
Malcolm
Love that the lid stop on that Kenmore is perfectly adjusted at the 11:30 position Ken...
Malcolm
macboy91si
Well-known member
24" DD Washer
I just picked up one of these 24" center-dial DD machines. I specifically want it to possibly pair up with the matching 24" dryer. My machine, which I will hopefully have time to post later this week, is an 85 model, neutral drainer but the tub has the clothes guard as the spin drainers do. I was wanting a BD, but this turned up and it works great. I was hoping for an earlier model though.
Gordon, the machine in the ad, while I realize is a BD model (and super rare) has the same timer as mine. My 85 24" DD reads "60 series" in the lower right corner and has the exact control panel as this BD in the ad. 4-minute prewash and all, the only difference being a slightly different timer dial with a clear plastic ring. 2-speed machine with 3 levels/temps and pre-wash. Odd, did these use the same timers?
Also Gordon, give me a call if you get a chance sometime
-Tim
I just picked up one of these 24" center-dial DD machines. I specifically want it to possibly pair up with the matching 24" dryer. My machine, which I will hopefully have time to post later this week, is an 85 model, neutral drainer but the tub has the clothes guard as the spin drainers do. I was wanting a BD, but this turned up and it works great. I was hoping for an earlier model though.
Gordon, the machine in the ad, while I realize is a BD model (and super rare) has the same timer as mine. My 85 24" DD reads "60 series" in the lower right corner and has the exact control panel as this BD in the ad. 4-minute prewash and all, the only difference being a slightly different timer dial with a clear plastic ring. 2-speed machine with 3 levels/temps and pre-wash. Odd, did these use the same timers?
Also Gordon, give me a call if you get a chance sometime
-Tim
Tim -
I am not completely sure how many timers were involved in the DD versions of these machines, but there was at least two generations as the neutral drain machines need an additional motor pause vs. the spin drains, which then requires different timers.
As to the BD timers in DD machines - no, they aren't compatible. There are no "motor off" portions that the DD needs for the pauses between agitate and drain/spin.
To better clarify what I was saying above, though the cycle layouts may look very similar to a casual observer, in fact I think Sears made it a point to set the cycles up on the DD timers to mimick those of the BDs, they are only similar, not exact.
Look at the DD machine in Lawrence's picture. Notice how the top of the big gold block "off" section on the left is exactly lined up with the top of the off section on the opposite right side in between Perm and Delicate. Then look at my picture of the BD OR the BD in the advertisement and draw in your mind the same line. The lines don't line up, they would be about 15 or 20 degrees off, or separated. The normal cycle starts lower than the off section on the other side. That is what I mean about the timers being laid out similarly, but different. The BD timer for 3/4/5 cycle machines was never exactly set up like the DD in the photo.
Tim - one question - does your machine have a black spot inside the 'off' between Pre-wash and Cotton/Sturdy? I don't know why Sears did this, but they only did it on DD machines. The corresponding BDs never had that spot, though there were some DDs that looked more exactly like their BD cousins than others. Yours is probably one of the more similar ones.
Gordon
I am not completely sure how many timers were involved in the DD versions of these machines, but there was at least two generations as the neutral drain machines need an additional motor pause vs. the spin drains, which then requires different timers.
As to the BD timers in DD machines - no, they aren't compatible. There are no "motor off" portions that the DD needs for the pauses between agitate and drain/spin.
To better clarify what I was saying above, though the cycle layouts may look very similar to a casual observer, in fact I think Sears made it a point to set the cycles up on the DD timers to mimick those of the BDs, they are only similar, not exact.
Look at the DD machine in Lawrence's picture. Notice how the top of the big gold block "off" section on the left is exactly lined up with the top of the off section on the opposite right side in between Perm and Delicate. Then look at my picture of the BD OR the BD in the advertisement and draw in your mind the same line. The lines don't line up, they would be about 15 or 20 degrees off, or separated. The normal cycle starts lower than the off section on the other side. That is what I mean about the timers being laid out similarly, but different. The BD timer for 3/4/5 cycle machines was never exactly set up like the DD in the photo.
Tim - one question - does your machine have a black spot inside the 'off' between Pre-wash and Cotton/Sturdy? I don't know why Sears did this, but they only did it on DD machines. The corresponding BDs never had that spot, though there were some DDs that looked more exactly like their BD cousins than others. Yours is probably one of the more similar ones.
Gordon
IIRC, some direct-drive timers have a dry-agitate test increment in the "off" span, which may be what the black dot indicates. Others will dry-agitate at the last 2-min wash increment on Normal/Regular/Cotton-Sturdy (lid must be closed).
mrb627
Well-known member
Suds Return?
Isn't the black spot where Suds Return would normally occur?
Malcolm
Isn't the black spot where Suds Return would normally occur?
Malcolm
macboy91si
Well-known member
DD Timer
For some reason the pic is not very high quality but yes it has a black area that I never noticed before.
-Tim
For some reason the pic is not very high quality but yes it has a black area that I never noticed before.
-Tim
OFF BOX ON DD WASHERS
That box in the middle of a long off area was where you set the timer to make the washer dry agitate to effect a suds return when the washer is used with the optional add on suds-saver attachment. If you look this setting was on most DD washers from around 1985-the early 1990s. The electronic LKM DD Washer even had a little * on the panel that would do this.
That box in the middle of a long off area was where you set the timer to make the washer dry agitate to effect a suds return when the washer is used with the optional add on suds-saver attachment. If you look this setting was on most DD washers from around 1985-the early 1990s. The electronic LKM DD Washer even had a little * on the panel that would do this.
rll70sman
Well-known member
Spin-drain in early direct drives
Gordon, do you know why Whirlpool integrated a spin-drain in the early direct drives, only to scrap it and return to its neutral-drain roots? I can honestly say that I have never seen a Whirlpool or Kenmore spin drain the water from a load without opening the lid during the drain portions of a cycle and depressing the lid switch.
Many people believe that spin draining is superior to neutral draining because the swirling water sends dirt and soap scum out through the upper part of the basket instead of drawing it back through the clothes. I've never seen any difference in my clothes because of this. What are your thoughts?
Rob
P.S. Check your AW.org email inbox. I sent you a message.
Gordon, do you know why Whirlpool integrated a spin-drain in the early direct drives, only to scrap it and return to its neutral-drain roots? I can honestly say that I have never seen a Whirlpool or Kenmore spin drain the water from a load without opening the lid during the drain portions of a cycle and depressing the lid switch.
Many people believe that spin draining is superior to neutral draining because the swirling water sends dirt and soap scum out through the upper part of the basket instead of drawing it back through the clothes. I've never seen any difference in my clothes because of this. What are your thoughts?
Rob
P.S. Check your AW.org email inbox. I sent you a message.
SPIN DRAIN DD WASHERS
WP was forced to reinvent the neutral drain washer because of all the consumer complaints of the performance of the early SD models. When they first built the DD washers they thought they could get away with not going to the expense of doing a neutral drain machine. Keep in mind that every automatic washer ever built that had the capability of draining before spinning did so. Far less dirt and scum stays in the clothes load when the water drains naturally as opposed to trying to spin the water through the clothes which ends up happing over and over again as the tub spins while trying to drain. This spinning also puts much more strain on the machine and causes many more balance problems. This has been discussed at great lengths on this site already.
WP was forced to reinvent the neutral drain washer because of all the consumer complaints of the performance of the early SD models. When they first built the DD washers they thought they could get away with not going to the expense of doing a neutral drain machine. Keep in mind that every automatic washer ever built that had the capability of draining before spinning did so. Far less dirt and scum stays in the clothes load when the water drains naturally as opposed to trying to spin the water through the clothes which ends up happing over and over again as the tub spins while trying to drain. This spinning also puts much more strain on the machine and causes many more balance problems. This has been discussed at great lengths on this site already.
rll70sman
Well-known member
John, I'm just thinking along the lines of Maytag, Speed Queen, and the General Motors Fridgidaires. The suspension systems of these machines must have been drastically different than that of a Whirlpool-built machine. Not to beat a dead horse, but I've known of many Maytags over the years that never had problems with balancing. They seemed so smooth and quiet while spinning. Sorry if I've missed the discussions about this.
Rob
Rob
SPin drain, neutral drain
I'm with John combo on this one, my spinout 70's Filter Flo and Maytag send tons of dirty water right through the clothes while spinning, no difference at all from a neutral drain, just sideways residue on clothes instead of straight down residue. My Whirlpool does the neutral drain, I have never seen any difference in results at all. If any of the machines has a worst-ever nasty load, then the filter helps a lot but at times (rare) I just put it back through a second rinse and all is well. As far as I can see, Whirlpool and Filter Flo are both aggressive and the Maytag is gentler, but neutral versus spin drain makes no difference in my wash.
Just my 2 cents...
However, I still hope to someday find a good EARLY automatic where there's an overflow rinse, and/or a solid tub where the spinout goes out into the entire cabinet. As fun and reliable as my 70's Maytag and GE and 60 Whirlpool are, I still hope to find a far rarer and older machine with very different technologies, just for fun and uniqueness.....something totally devoted to and designed in the soap era, not detergent. The only overflow rinse I have ever seen is videos here, never in real life, let alone in my basement. I'll keep looking.
I'm with John combo on this one, my spinout 70's Filter Flo and Maytag send tons of dirty water right through the clothes while spinning, no difference at all from a neutral drain, just sideways residue on clothes instead of straight down residue. My Whirlpool does the neutral drain, I have never seen any difference in results at all. If any of the machines has a worst-ever nasty load, then the filter helps a lot but at times (rare) I just put it back through a second rinse and all is well. As far as I can see, Whirlpool and Filter Flo are both aggressive and the Maytag is gentler, but neutral versus spin drain makes no difference in my wash.
Just my 2 cents...
However, I still hope to someday find a good EARLY automatic where there's an overflow rinse, and/or a solid tub where the spinout goes out into the entire cabinet. As fun and reliable as my 70's Maytag and GE and 60 Whirlpool are, I still hope to find a far rarer and older machine with very different technologies, just for fun and uniqueness.....something totally devoted to and designed in the soap era, not detergent. The only overflow rinse I have ever seen is videos here, never in real life, let alone in my basement. I'll keep looking.
SPIN DRANING
MTs like most all TL washers do not have trouble balancing if you put in full loads. But try putting in a half load and you can almost guarantee that it will shut off on the unbalance cutoff. This will not happen on a neutral drain washer. As I had said before this is why GE and even Frigidare went to neutral drain it is by far the best way to build a perforated basket TL washer. SQ even builds some machines this way for sales in other countries.
MTs like most all TL washers do not have trouble balancing if you put in full loads. But try putting in a half load and you can almost guarantee that it will shut off on the unbalance cutoff. This will not happen on a neutral drain washer. As I had said before this is why GE and even Frigidare went to neutral drain it is by far the best way to build a perforated basket TL washer. SQ even builds some machines this way for sales in other countries.
John,
Why would SQ make their AWN552 for export a neutral drain and not the rest of the line which is sold in the U.S.? That is fascinating to me.
I so would like to buy one of these machines, but as a $500 toy, I can't justify it.
Gordon
Why would SQ make their AWN552 for export a neutral drain and not the rest of the line which is sold in the U.S.? That is fascinating to me.
I so would like to buy one of these machines, but as a $500 toy, I can't justify it.
Gordon
SQ NEUTRAL DRAIN MACHINES
Gordon I am not really sure why they are making them with neutral drain for other markets, I could guess a lot of reasons but I may just be guessing. I will try to talk to the engineers at SQ at some time soon and see if they will give me any insight on this and a few other questions I have for them.
PS, Gordon I can get you a new SQ TL washer for a little less than $400.00 if you want to drive one up and pick it up or even have it shipped down to you.
Gordon I am not really sure why they are making them with neutral drain for other markets, I could guess a lot of reasons but I may just be guessing. I will try to talk to the engineers at SQ at some time soon and see if they will give me any insight on this and a few other questions I have for them.
PS, Gordon I can get you a new SQ TL washer for a little less than $400.00 if you want to drive one up and pick it up or even have it shipped down to you.
MT spin'n'drain
MTs like most all TL washers do not have trouble balancing if you put in full loads. But try putting in a half load and you can almost guarantee that it will shut off on the unbalance cutoff.
I don't notice any difference in stability in spinning full loads compared to partial loads in a Maytag. In fact I recall Consumer Reports stating in their reviews that Maytags handled slightly unbalanced loads without tripping the switch.
MTs like most all TL washers do not have trouble balancing if you put in full loads. But try putting in a half load and you can almost guarantee that it will shut off on the unbalance cutoff.
I don't notice any difference in stability in spinning full loads compared to partial loads in a Maytag. In fact I recall Consumer Reports stating in their reviews that Maytags handled slightly unbalanced loads without tripping the switch.
