Bleach Detergent?

[mrboilwash]

We`ve had stainless steel DWs for as long as I can think of. There have been rare exceptions but plastic tub DWs have always been considered shabby over here and the few that existed vanished sometime in the 1970s I think.
Our DW detergents were highly caustic, mostly water glass, phosphates and loads of chlorine until much milder enzyme based formulas appeared in the 1990s.

The stainless interior usually coped well with the old detergents, it was the dishes that didn`t. Lots of terribly etched glasses, onglaze prints that washed away in no time, and our enameled pots and pans all had a rough surface. That`s my memories and I don`t miss the chlorine based detergents at all.

 

[rolls_rapide]

"I don't miss the chlorine based detergents at all&#

I do miss them. They caused tea and coffee stains to be removed in one wash, and stainless pots, pans etc. looked much brighter. I also suspect that the optical sensor's plastic lenses were kept clearer too.

I will concede that perhaps the old chlorine detergents were a tad harsh on the dishwasher's plastic components. I have memories of the upper and lower baskets losing their plastic coatings, and the wheels on the baskets crumbled to powder (Zanussi/Electrolux). That also happened to the plastic edges of my Bosch's metal fine filter.

 

[henene4]

Honestly, having had a heavy tea drinker in my household, oxygen bleach worked just as well.
I mean the detergent was 30% oxygen bleach, but hey.

As you said, chlorine attacked EVERYTHING.
Including optical sensors etc.
Seals, pumps, no matter.

What most of the EU members underestimate is the lower wash temperatures.

45C vs. 55C vs. 65C are 3 completely different tears of bleaching action.

AND temperatures are no longer really held.
DWs had to reheat less in general once they heated to temp, but they basicly just don't anymore.

 

[rolls_rapide]

"different tiers of bleaching action"

Ah yes! I was reading the other day via Google Translator, Stiftung Warentest's dishwasher detergent report. Or more precisely, the members' comments section.

Folk were querying why Stif.Waren. tested at a temperature of 45°C. Obviously it was to suss out which detergents could handle such a low temperature. Apparently the Manganese Catalyst is supposed to work at low temps, whereas TAED and Sodium Percarbonate require a higher temperature.

"It clearly outperforms tetraacetylethylene-diamine (TAED) in the temperature range below 60 °C. Being a true catalyst, it is used in very low concentrations and saves valuable formulation space.

Features:
Removes tea, coffee and fruit stains at low temperatures.
Supports amylases in starch degradation processes.
Supresses silver tarnishing by oxidation of sulphur-containing food residues.
Very low usage levels: 0.01 – 004 %.
Compatible with enzymes and p-free builder systems."

Finish Quantum Ultimate is supposed to have Mn-TACN as the catalyst. This doesn't explain the poor bleaching performance experienced by several users. Perhaps they didn't put enough of it into the formulation?

https://www.weylchem.com/weylclean-mntacn.html

 

[rolls_rapide]

Mn-TACN is also known as:

Bis(N,N',N''-trimethyl-1,4,7-triazacyclononane)-trioxo-dimanganese (IV) di(hexafluorophosphate)monohydrate.

Apparently it used in 'Fairy All-in-One' and most of the UK Fairy dishwasher pods - but not all.

'Fairy Platinum All-in-One (Original)' supposedly uses/used:

(Acetato)Pentaamminecobalt Dinitrate,

which appears to be a Cobalt catalyst.

 

[iiijohnnymaciii]

Palmolive Eco is working

Just wanted to update that the Palmolive Eco has removed stains from my storage containers. The plastic straws are just too far gone. I even tried soaking them in 1/4 cup bleach and 1/2 gal of water. When that didn't work I tried straight bleach. That didn't even work. Hopefully now the Palmolive will be proactive and keep stains off before they start. I might give the Cascade + Oxi tabs a try in the future. But I'm pretty happy with Palmolive Eco right now.

 

[askolover]

Glad that worked well for you.  My mother's been using it for years.  I just bought some a couple of weeks ago to have on hand since I use chlorine based powdered detergent primarily.  I just finished off my Cascade fryer boil out...didn't really care for it.  Cascade gel with the power of Clorox has chlorine in it...the powdered version DOES NOT...it's oxygen bleach (which is misleading since it has the Clorox label on it).  I really like this

that I bought on ebay.

 

[iiijohnnymaciii]

Askolover,

Thanks. I will give the Cascade gel with power of Clorox a try as well. It says that my Walgreens carries it. I will say, without any enzymes the Palmolive Eco definitely rellies more on the power of the spray arms and the heat of the water to lossen debris. I would think this stuff would be perfect for those with KDS and Power Clean Whirlpools!

 

[askolover]

That's why we still use those types of detergents...Mother and I both have 1994 model KUDI 23's and my Maytag is old school too from 1997.

 

[deborah]

Don't get it.

Why are folks worried about using chlorine bleach in a stainless steel interior dishwasher? We have most of use used chlorine bleach in our stainless steel drum clothes washing machines for many years with no problem. So why would the bleach harm a dishwasher if it's safe in a washing machine?

 

[sudsmaster]

Deborah,

 

Bosch specifically warns NOT to use chlorine bleach in its AXXIS  front loader washer.

 



 

On page 13, see the following:

 

"DO NOT use chlorine bleach in this washing machine."

 

While the manual doesn't explain why, I have read in past forum posts here or elsewhere, that it's because the chlorine bleach could damage the washer's heating element.

 

 

 

 

[sudsmaster]

Also, chlorine bleach can and has caused pitting corrosion of stainless steel. There's an interesting thread somewhere on the internet I read some years ago, in a craft brew site, of an instance where sterilizing stainless steel brewing containers with chlorine bleach resulted in such pitting corrosion to the point where the vessels no longer could hold pressure due to pinhole leaks.

 

What makes stainless steel rust-resistant is a protective chromium oxide layer that forms on exposure to air. This layer is what protects the steel from rusting. The problem with chlorine bleach is that it can remove or compromise the chromium oxide layer and allow corrosion of the steel to occur.

 

In the case of the brewing vessels, I recall that the theory was that the bleach solution was not thoroughly rinsed out, and allowed to remain. As the solution evaporated, droplets of it became more and more concentrated, to the point where the concentrated bleach attacked the protective chromium oxide layer and resulted in the pinhole leaks.

 

 

[sudsmaster]

You may also note that the Bosch Axxis washer does not have a compartment for bleach.

 

Nor do any of my Miele clothes washers.

 

Instead, oxygen bleach and high temperatures can be used to remove stains.

 

 

 

[sudsmaster]

Also, on page 17 of the Bosch Axxis manual linked above:

 

 

WARNING

 

DO NOT use chlorine bleach in this washing machine.

 

 

CAUTION

 

Decolorants may contain sulphur or chlorine.

These substances can cause parts of the washing machine to corrode. Do not decolorize items of laundry in the washing machine.

 

[askolover]

My 22 year old Asko says not to use chlorine.   I've been using it the entire time I've owned it and have had zero problems.  The heating element isn't even discolored.  Miele also doesn't recommend but again I've been using it...but not on the 190F cycle.

 

[henene4]

Miele machines do have a bleaching setting, don't they?

 

[mrboilwash]

I`m wondering if Bosch`s warning against the use of chlorine might have more to do with the aluminum spider than the stainless steel parts.
As I said before stainless steel interior dish washers have always been the preferred design in the EU, long before chlorine free DW detergents came along.
But those were also loaded with waterglass a corrosion inhibitor which liquid chlorine bleach does not contain. Maybe this made all the difference.

 

[henene4]

I think that with FL washers of early generations with stainless steal or aluminium parts EU manufacturers assumed that US people would use chlorine bleach much more frequently (like 10 to 100 times more commonly) and that they would not adjust dosage accordingly to the significantly lower water levels and probably higher temps and just put that disclaimer there to get out of any warranty claims related to that.

Those oxide layers are "fragile" and damage to them can lead to corrosion but as long as there is air around there should be really no danger.
Those oxide layers are atoms thick and reform badicly instantly on contact with air.

A much higher danger - especially with SS - is corrosion by particulates of other corrosive metals getting attached to the material for example during manufacturing.

 

[logixx]

Miele say in their Professional manuals:

 

[sudsmaster]

Great post, Alexander. It explains quite well the problem with chlorine and how to avoid it.

 

I was rummaging around my fish pond supplies the other day, and came across a tub of sodium thiosulfate. I used to mix up a concentration of that, and then use a metered siphon to add it to the make up water that runs into the pond from the tap every morning on a timer. However since a few years ago, the local water service changed from elemental chlorine to chloramine, the actual chlorine levels plummeted and I've been able to get by without any thiosulfate usage since.

 

[mark_wpduet]

The bleach compartments

in FL washers are super small. You're literally using a couple of tablespoons and by the time the washer fills, it gets diluted and rinsed away. It's not like full-strength bleach is just sitting on the stainless. I could totally see how that could eat away at anything. I've seen so many videos of failing spiders and the inner tub is caked with mutant funk...I think that's what kills the spider, not the bleach. I can't stress how I'm talking about a couple of tablespoons of bleach going in the dishwasher (give or take) at the very moment you start it. I'm not like pouring a whole cup in there or anything. I use so little of the stuff that 1/2 gallon takes me ages to go through and I can barely get through it before it expires.

My FL washer is approaching 15 years old & it would be very difficult for me to go live without a little LCB

I remember growing up, we used Chlorox bleach in our TL washer, and we poured the recommended amount in and it was so STRONG. We always cut way back on the recommended amount because a little of it goes a LONG way and does less damage to fabrics.

 

[sudsmaster]

Just as an aside... salt water can corrode stainless steel, from the chloride ion in salt, which is sodium chloride. The steels with more nickel, like 18-8 or 304, are more resistant to salt water corrosion. 18-8 mean 18% chromium, 8% nickel. Even more resistant to salt water is 316, which is 16% chromium, 10% nickel, and 2% molybdenum. The molybdenum gives it more salt resistance.

 

There are many different types of stainless steel. In broad categories, they might be ferritic (usually magnetic), martensitic (harder, like for knives), precipitation hardening, or austenitic (generally non magnetic unless worked). The 304 and 316 types are austenitic. Most stainless steel knives (for cutting) are martensitic. Most stainless cutlery is austenitic, with the better quality being 304 or 316. It's a complex subject and even two knives made from the same type steel may have different characteristics depending on how they are manufactured.

 

 

 

 

 

[gelaundry4ever]

finish ultimate

Try finish ultimate and see if it works.