Bosch weighs offer for appliance maker Whirlpool
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I read about that earlier this morning.
ryner1988
Well-known member
I'm confused. Is Bosch buying Whirlpool or is Whirlpool buying Bosch? Will this affect North American appliances at all?
The rumor is that Bosch is buying Whirlpool.
Bosch buying Whirlpool
So I imagine Whirlpool will be EVEN bigger than ever before.
So I imagine Whirlpool will be EVEN bigger than ever before.
murando531
Well-known member
Oh joy… the last true US brand and the only appliance maker I’ll even consider in today’s world destined to be absorbed by yet another overseas mega-corp. Guess I’ll have to stockpile parts for my WFW92 set and KDTM604K dishwasher if this goes through. I’ve never been impressed by anything Bosch offers, and I’m sure they’ll adopt the full-size front loader platform for themselves to make up for the low sales of their compacts here in the US, and they’ll shelve WP’s dishwasher design, including the spinning filter MicroClean pumps and FreeFlex third rack. I guess they took the KA commercial personally.
Honestly, who knows. I’m sure Whirlpool will decline the offer, they are a big enough company as it is.
Maybe they are making an offer to buy a certain technology or design they don’t have access to? Time will tell what ends up happening.
Maybe they are making an offer to buy a certain technology or design they don’t have access to? Time will tell what ends up happening.
dishwasher design
Maybe Bosch may use Whirlpool's design. After all, they do look similar due to the pump and filtration design.
Maybe Bosch may use Whirlpool's design. After all, they do look similar due to the pump and filtration design.
Murando531...
Where the heck have you been?
Where the heck have you been?
I'll sayit, I regard my Bosch to have far superior results of washing totally hard sioled dishwashware copared to my two previous KitxhenAid/WP-produced Kenmore Elites. And during the pandemic when I needed a new dishwasher, there were only BOL KitchenAids and I won't have a BOL dishwasher. Thus, the Bosch.
The monopolies just keep getting bigger. A bit surprised its Bosch eating Whirlpool, but not surprised that two megging corps are fusing together. This is not the world we (at least I) want.
“The monopolies just keep getting bigger”
Ain’t that the truth @ chetlaham. I mentioned on how there’s monopolies in terms of limiting one’s options in terms of machines or machines available from different manufacturers, people call me crazy until things like this happen.
I wonder what John’s thoughts are on this. He may know since he knows more about Whirlpool than me and others on the site.
Ain’t that the truth @ chetlaham. I mentioned on how there’s monopolies in terms of limiting one’s options in terms of machines or machines available from different manufacturers, people call me crazy until things like this happen.
I wonder what John’s thoughts are on this. He may know since he knows more about Whirlpool than me and others on the site.
launderess
Well-known member
Whirlpool, Electrolux, Miele... the major appliance makers of North America and Europe all are having same problems. Declining sales due to a host of factors. Everything from consumers being short of ready money to market forces such as declining new home starts.
Making matters worse is the onslaught of Asian appliance manufacturers such as LG, Haier, Samsung, and others. If they're not buying American or European appliance makers (such as GE), they're saturating North American and European markets with affordable and innovative appliances.
Most Americans wouldn't know Bosch name from Adam, they do however know Whirlpool and the family of brands it acquired over many years: Maytag, KitchenAid, Amana, JennAir, Inglis. Europeans would know Bauknecht, Privileg, Lade and Hotpoint
It is the perceived value of those brands along with of course Whirlpool Bosch could be eyeing in terms of making any such deal work in long run.
WP has been spending heavily on new R&D centers recently. Riverview Drive plant was repurposed to a R&D center for refrigeration. WP also is putting finishing touches on a huge new laundry and dishwasher R&D center on Upton Drive
It's all just rumors and whispers as of now. If Bosch does put a serious offer on table WP's board would be duty bound to consider.
Making matters worse is the onslaught of Asian appliance manufacturers such as LG, Haier, Samsung, and others. If they're not buying American or European appliance makers (such as GE), they're saturating North American and European markets with affordable and innovative appliances.
Most Americans wouldn't know Bosch name from Adam, they do however know Whirlpool and the family of brands it acquired over many years: Maytag, KitchenAid, Amana, JennAir, Inglis. Europeans would know Bauknecht, Privileg, Lade and Hotpoint
It is the perceived value of those brands along with of course Whirlpool Bosch could be eyeing in terms of making any such deal work in long run.
WP has been spending heavily on new R&D centers recently. Riverview Drive plant was repurposed to a R&D center for refrigeration. WP also is putting finishing touches on a huge new laundry and dishwasher R&D center on Upton Drive
It's all just rumors and whispers as of now. If Bosch does put a serious offer on table WP's board would be duty bound to consider.
WHR stock has been on a substantial downward trend since April. It made a small leap from 87.03 to 101.91 (+17.1%) today upon the news.
Whirlpool and Indesit are the two biggest names here in Europe. Whirlpool bought Philips appliances in the past to increase their market share in Europe. Now it looks like Bosch wants a bigger percentage of the American market. Unfortunately that was the end of the very innovative Philips brand.
Or maybe it's insurance against Trump ...
If Trump wins and introduces the tarrifs he's spruiking, the US will only have what it can make itself because theoretically everything else will be priced off the market by comparison. Bosch (and other EU manufacturers in particular) would lose market share. By buying WP, Bosch can ensure that it has access to the US market and support US manufacturing in whatever form along the way. It may even introduce its own manufacturing lines - who knows.
Price is what people pay attention to, not country of manufacture. Asia can build stuff cheaper than US, EU or little 'ol AU ... so they continue to dominate.
If Trump wins and introduces the tarrifs he's spruiking, the US will only have what it can make itself because theoretically everything else will be priced off the market by comparison. Bosch (and other EU manufacturers in particular) would lose market share. By buying WP, Bosch can ensure that it has access to the US market and support US manufacturing in whatever form along the way. It may even introduce its own manufacturing lines - who knows.
Price is what people pay attention to, not country of manufacture. Asia can build stuff cheaper than US, EU or little 'ol AU ... so they continue to dominate.
I am pretty certain that Indesit no longer is one of the biggest names in Europe - mainly because Hotpoint/Indesit has been purchased by Whirlpool a few years back.
And given Whirlpools global yearly sales volume is only about 1/3 larger than BSHs, looking at market shares in each region, they won't trade much in those terms.
The big thing to keep in mind is that Whirlpool is a publicly traded company - neither Bosch nor BSH are.
That means 2 things: If Bosch can get the liquidity needed, they can just *buy* a certain part of Whirlpool through shares - depending on who holds how many shares maybe even a substantial amount.
Further, depending on the size of the offer, Whirlpool might have to legally accept that offer. A company issuing shares is legally required to act in the shareholders best interests - and a substantial offer might be just that.
On the terms of which technology will persist...
I don't think things will change as much as one thinks.
I could very well see a future where BSH uses US platforms for the US market or vise versa.
Maybe some technology might be cross-connected. Whirlpool took their EU dryer design and just changed out the controls. On the washers, they took the entire design but changed some programming to their liking. Same I could see in that fusion. BSH might want to take things like the self cleaning DW system and put it in their DWs to have a standout feature over here.
Neither company has made any official statement yet.
And having worked at BSH for 18 months until very recently, these news could seed more uncertainty in that company than there already was - and it was a lot.
And given Whirlpools global yearly sales volume is only about 1/3 larger than BSHs, looking at market shares in each region, they won't trade much in those terms.
The big thing to keep in mind is that Whirlpool is a publicly traded company - neither Bosch nor BSH are.
That means 2 things: If Bosch can get the liquidity needed, they can just *buy* a certain part of Whirlpool through shares - depending on who holds how many shares maybe even a substantial amount.
Further, depending on the size of the offer, Whirlpool might have to legally accept that offer. A company issuing shares is legally required to act in the shareholders best interests - and a substantial offer might be just that.
On the terms of which technology will persist...
I don't think things will change as much as one thinks.
I could very well see a future where BSH uses US platforms for the US market or vise versa.
Maybe some technology might be cross-connected. Whirlpool took their EU dryer design and just changed out the controls. On the washers, they took the entire design but changed some programming to their liking. Same I could see in that fusion. BSH might want to take things like the self cleaning DW system and put it in their DWs to have a standout feature over here.
Neither company has made any official statement yet.
And having worked at BSH for 18 months until very recently, these news could seed more uncertainty in that company than there already was - and it was a lot.
I guess things vary rather much between the European countries. Overhere in the Netherlands the second best sold washing machine is an Indesit. Hotpoint isn’t even available here.
panasonicvac
Well-known member
Did Bosch ever made machines for Whirlpool before? I asked cause Whirlpool had their Duet washers built in Germany but I don't know who made them. If it was Bosch, I could see some sense of Bosch buying Whirlpool and I'd love it if they brought back the German built Duets but I definitely see doubts of that ever happening.
The early generations of Duets were made by Bauknecht (owned by Whirlpool).
Bosch toploaders are relabeled Whirlpool/Indesit machines.
Some numbers from statista
I find it hard to believe the US would approve this merger. Their main concern will be concentration in the dishwasher market. Bosch and Whirlpool are probably the 2 biggest players. I don't think they will be too concerned about other appliance categories, since Bosch is a pretty small player in the US outside dishwashers.
But, experience shows that concentration in a single appliance category is enough to block a merger. The GE-Electrolux merger was blocked over cooking appliances.
But, experience shows that concentration in a single appliance category is enough to block a merger. The GE-Electrolux merger was blocked over cooking appliances.
pierreandreply4
Well-known member
i wonder how bosch would make maytag washer dryers as well as kitchenaid dishwashers as well as the whirlpool line of washer dryers?
Given that Haier was then allowed to acquire GE that's somewhat weird...
But that can always happen.
But that can always happen.
launderess
Well-known member
Electrolux was going to buy GE appliances, but US DOJ squashed that deal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Appliances#History
Haier was one of few if only players left willing and able to cough up over $5 billion USD for GE appliances. More to the point Asian appliance manufacturers have smaller market shares than say Whirlpool or Electrolux. This means less risk of anti trust objections because one large company is gobbling up another eliminating a competitor.
Haier originally wanted to buy Maytag, but pulled out of the running. If that deal had gone through it's highly unlikely Haier would have been able to buy GE Appliances.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...tag-bid/f05586dd-097d-41b8-8cee-99c3bd17a72b/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/billfi...t-leader-the-transformation-of-ge-appliances/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Appliances#History
Haier was one of few if only players left willing and able to cough up over $5 billion USD for GE appliances. More to the point Asian appliance manufacturers have smaller market shares than say Whirlpool or Electrolux. This means less risk of anti trust objections because one large company is gobbling up another eliminating a competitor.
Haier originally wanted to buy Maytag, but pulled out of the running. If that deal had gone through it's highly unlikely Haier would have been able to buy GE Appliances.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...tag-bid/f05586dd-097d-41b8-8cee-99c3bd17a72b/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/billfi...t-leader-the-transformation-of-ge-appliances/
Unless consumer start protesting at every level, it doesn't matter who buys who, appliance quality will keep going down hill.
henene4: Haier barely sold any major appliances in the US prior to buying GE. There was little concern over competition.
By contrast Electrolux had a big presence in the US (as they have since they bought WCI in the 80s) and there was a lot of product overlap between them and GE. There wasn't so much of a competition concern with refrigeration and laundry (with LG and Samsung having a large US market share) or dishwashers (with Bosch having a large US market share). But with cooking, back in 2014 at least, there were only three companies with significant US market share: Whirlpool, GE, and Electrolux - and the DOJ determined that reducing those three competitors to two would hurt consumers.
By contrast Electrolux had a big presence in the US (as they have since they bought WCI in the 80s) and there was a lot of product overlap between them and GE. There wasn't so much of a competition concern with refrigeration and laundry (with LG and Samsung having a large US market share) or dishwashers (with Bosch having a large US market share). But with cooking, back in 2014 at least, there were only three companies with significant US market share: Whirlpool, GE, and Electrolux - and the DOJ determined that reducing those three competitors to two would hurt consumers.
But by that logic, Bosch will very much be allowed to buy Whirlpool.
Bosch has a very minor market share, so it won't really cut out a competitor.
Especially since Whirlpool is very much more internationally active than GE - it will have a much bigger international than national effect, by percentage at least.
Bosch has a very minor market share, so it won't really cut out a competitor.
Especially since Whirlpool is very much more internationally active than GE - it will have a much bigger international than national effect, by percentage at least.
If Bosch buys whirlpool
They might learn how to make a decent dishwasher that can be serviced and isn’t such a flimsy piece of junk I can’t believe how many of those plastic bottomed dishwasher Bosch sells and none of their dishwashers except the ultra premium ones do a half Way decent job of drying dishes.
But I don’t think they should be allowed to buy because whirlpool and Bosch are currently the two biggest dishwasher makers, GE and Electrolux are still very much in the mix in the US as well.
John
They might learn how to make a decent dishwasher that can be serviced and isn’t such a flimsy piece of junk I can’t believe how many of those plastic bottomed dishwasher Bosch sells and none of their dishwashers except the ultra premium ones do a half Way decent job of drying dishes.
But I don’t think they should be allowed to buy because whirlpool and Bosch are currently the two biggest dishwasher makers, GE and Electrolux are still very much in the mix in the US as well.
John
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