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beekeyknee

beekeyknee

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Messages
1,792
Location
Columbia, MO
The government is getting ready to install new mandates in mid April which will make a w/h more complicated and aggravating. Other appliances will be affected too, I think. Haven't studied it completely but I know w/h will be affected. For instance a gas w/h will need to be connected to an electric supply to work, among other things.

This is just a notification, not a debate.
 
Here is Maryland, the Washington Suburban Sanitary Commission has determined that the brick chimneys through which most furnaces and water heaters are vented must have the flues updated with stainless steel flue-work adding about $1500 to a water heater installation. If you don't do it and put your home on the market, a home inspector can check the manufacturing date on the water heater to determine if you should have upgraded the flue when installing it. I have a fan-forced vent gas water heater. I have always been a little scared of the fact that if the power went out, I would not have an uninterrupted supply of hot water as would normally be available with a gas heater. I think now that I will stay with this type even though the placement of the blower on top means that the tank cannot be fitted with an electric anode. I have a really heavy 2 inch insulation blanket on the tank. I had to order it online because the usual stores only carried the one inch blanket.
 
The state mandated the same rules a few years ago here but even went further. Besides the required stainless liner before a furnace replacement, only one appliance could be connected to that one flue. So a water heater and furnace can not be in the same chimney. Stupid ruling, as far as I am concerned. We have one of the oldest housing stock here in New England and these chimneys worked just fine for many years.
 
Normal 40 and 50 gallon water heaters by Bradford White and Rheem will still offer a good 'ole standing pilot. I spoke to my local plumbing supplier a few weeks ago and they said the 75 gallon tank won't require 120 volts as I previously heard either, but we'll see about that as they haven't come out with the new ones yet. The biggest changes will be the prices rising about 1-200 dollars...

I personally see this as completely unnecessary meddling with something that already works and already doesn't cost that much to run.
 
Remember that these rules apply to manufacturers of water heaters. This simply means it applies to water heaters built on or after April 1, 2015. New, Old Stock water heaters may still be sold as long as supplies last.

And for those who have our water heaters in the attic....

After Apr 1, 2015 water heaters will be thicker than they currently are due to having more insulation required by new regulations. Currently the drop down stairs are only about 25" wide. But the new tanks will be 26-28" wide. This means that the entire ladder system will have to be removed. The hole to the attic enlarged and the water tank lifted up into the attic and the floor/ceiling repaired before new stairs can be installed.

I have also noticed that the price of water heaters at Lowes, HD, etc. has gone up about $200 in the last 60 days or so.
 
And why the $200 price increase for hot water heaters that have been sitting on the shelves for awhile? Profiteering! We currently have a Bradford/White TOL heater that's about 9-10 years old.So far so good, but we haven't drained it periodically or changed the anode. I wonder how long we have? It's going to be expensive to change.

I'm seriously considering changing it myself when the time comes.
 
Can't the D@#$ government stay out of everyones business

To reduce carbon impact!
Moving from constant pilot lighting to electronic ignition will reduce unnecessary gas wastes, consider it a massive savings in the long run.

Here in NYC, we are seeing changes from the street lighting industries going from Halogen to LED lights.
It's a start but the savings will be huge when it all said and done!

And yes the changes hurt businesses by retooling but the industries will expand current jobs or create new jobs at the expense of residential and business owners due to the new regulations.

Yes I'm looking for a new water heater and if the electronic ignition is part of the new unit, I'm for it, for it will save me more money in the long run from not burning gas going out the pipe and my bald wallet and it will reduce my carbon footprint.
We must look at it from both sides of the fence......
 
I'm perfectly happy with a standing pilot water heater. And have you not seen the pilot flame on them? They're tiny, they use very very little gas. There is no reason electronic ignition in a water heater is better in any way, too many things to go wrong and the last thing I want is to be fumbling around with a broken water heater at the buttcrack of dawn just so I can have hot water for my morning shower.
And if the power goes out? Forget about it!

These things already don't use that much energy as it is, our gas usage between the water heater AND gas dryer is between 15-20 therms a month during non heating months, and I keep the temp set around 140-150.

Carbon footprint my @ss
 
When do we start to make small changes to preserve the great things we have today for those who coming up behind us?
Most of us are in our 50's and may live another 20/25 years, do we continue to blow the earth into a heat spell that is not reversible or do we take small steps now to cushion the blow because it will effect everything starting with the food chain?
It's not perfect but we all got to stop this "only me" mentality!
 
What's the point of having a water heater anymore? I can't wash my clothes in hot water, my dishwasher takes hours to do what used to take minutes and for Christ Sakes my shower will not let me get it really hot! Has anyone done a study of "savings" since all this started? Is there any documentation that the world will last any longer??? Just put offer on another house, called favorite plumber and told him I would need to replace 3 toidies with the same ones he put in this house 12 yrs ago. "No can do". Now that my friends is really the shits!
 
chuckle chuckle

Well!

This is a refreshing thread. For a while there I was convinced that I was the only one with my head in the sand and oblivious to new technology. That I clung to outmoded, wasteful top loaders when a 5 gallon FL was what I really needed! That I would not accept something "new" because, after all, anything "new" HAS to be better.

Thanks guys, you really cheered me up.

Having said that, I get to look forward to my first hi-eff Goodman furnace in about 10 days when I close on a new house. Right now I suffer through an 80% eff furnace and the 118 buck gas bill for last month. I wretch when I think........hmmmm lemme see, I rented here for 15 years and.......hang on.........uh.......yes, it has not had one service call! Holy smokes! Imagine that! A wasteful, carbon footprint expanding device that just..........works!

I can only imagine the headaches I will experience with the wonderful, new, algore approved Goodman and all the neat-o stuff it packs. Already I am working with a bank to establish an open line of credit for those ahem, unforeseen circumstances.

To answer Cuffs054 question....the answer is nothing. Like pretty much anything our good all knowing goobermint does, no one goes back and checks on the money spent to see if it really did move the needle. All I know is I pay more for electricity, more for natural gas, more for petrol, more for tyres, and on and on not to mention I have to use those effing Cascade PODS that cost a helluva lot more than the simple powder I used to use but cannot thanks to the piss poor GE water spray design.

And to add insult to injury, I cannot source 3.5 gallon toilets from Canada anymore! Windsor plumbing supply is poof. So this new place has the nefarious algore approved water misers. At the risk of TMI, it might interest the water nazis that in my office we have the 1.6 gallon power assist units and when I go potty, it takes not 1, not 2, not 3 but 4 flushes (using recycled wipe paper) to remove the waste.

Let me see 1.6 x 4= 6.4 gallons.

Tell me again (draw a picture if necessary) how all this eco stuff is saving us money and time?
 
Ive said it before!

The EPA should be abolished completely, when I see a smoke stack rolling out coal smoke, I see Americans at work,I burn oil, and will continue to have good heat until I can no longer afford it, It is much harder on the environment to fill the landfills full of 8 and 10 year old appliances and products that were junk to start with than having the government worry about how much water my dishwasher or washing machine uses, I believe the good Lord furnished this planet with enough water and air to do us as long as we will need it! We are letting the government regulate us right out of existence.
 
Some countries gone green and we are lagging far behind!

If these countries are doing it, why is it taking us so long to catch up?
Set your DVR's for Chris Hayes repeat show at 11:00 PM and see how Costa Rica doing it.
The clip is short but it shows that it can be done!

The link below shows how the west gone green and I bet their cancer rate will be cut in half in a decade or less!

BTW, the great nation (USA) of ours is very proud to advertise cancer treatment centers but refuses to take and make small steps do something to prevent it!
And I'm proud that we are phucking #2 polluter in the world!
Wear your badge well USA, you've earned it!

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/01/25/the-worlds-3-most-polluted-countries.aspx

http://www.autosweblog.com/cat/polluting-countries-ranked-by-carbon-dioxide-emissions-with-.html

The numbers does not lie!

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-greenest-countries.php
 
Sorry but for me, my main toilet has been there since 1995 and it had to be a 1.6 gallon that doesnt flush worth s+++ and you have to dump another basin to get everything to go away. It has a plastic cut off gallon bottle in the tank to flush. How is this conserving. I am going to replace it this year when it finally warms up with something that works. My kitchen appliances are 20 years old and my Maytag washer and dryer are 31 years old. I hate getting rid of anything that still works right.
 
Unlike most appliances...

The high efficiency furnace isn't necessarily a total waste of money, replacing our 80%er with a 97% efficient Trane with a 2 stage gas valve and variable speed blower lopped quite a bit off our gas bills. (about 50-100 dollars a month)
Although replacing the furnace with more a efficient one isn't the only factor in reducing usage, but also making sure that it is sized correctly to the heat loss of the home on the coldest day of the year is also very crucial to getting optimal efficiency and lowering the bills.
But of course all that is a waste if you haven't properly insulated/air sealed your home, so if that's not done that should be the first thing tackled before even looking at replacing that old reliable tank of a furnace in the basement. The tighter you get your home the less the efficiency of the HVAC equipment makes a difference on utility costs.

To anyone looking for a good toilet I'd suggest giving the Toto Drake a good look, they're about 200 bucks at a plumbing supplier, built to high standards and most importantly, perform well on 1.6 GPF. And better yet when you need that extra oomph you can hold the handle and make that a 2.5 gallon flush that will clear just about anything away... (rivaling even some of the best old water guzzlers believe it or not...)

As far as home appliances go, all these changes really don't seem to have done much of anything but pad the manufacturers wallets further and start to piss off consumers. It really is devastating to me to see what has come of appliances in just the last 10 years. I think energy efficiency and "going green" has just been taken and run with as a marketing ploy for the industries to make yet even more money. The only people "going green" are the wallets of the manufacturers selling these "efficient" appliances.
In the end you're not saving anything if you have to rewash your dishes and run that front loader through another cycle cuz those sheets still stink of B.O.

My question I ask people these days is: "Since you've gone "green" have you actually noticed a massive drop in your utility costs?"... Most everyone I've asked have actually said "no"
 
Gusherb

I have no doubt about the upcoming Goodman and it's ability to heat properly and save in gas costs. What concerns me is the complexity of the thing and how all those do-dads will hold up over the long haul.

A hi-eff anything is not cost effective when it breaks down or just plum wears out. Then all your fuel cost savings go into replacement/repairs. How does the individual save money that way?

Of course, I could be wrong on the Goodman. It might outlast my. Or the SQ. But somehow I doubt it.

At least the WH is a Bradford White. I think they are union made too!
 
I don't worry one bit about running out of water...the world never has!

So true, but drinking water is crucial in some area where we are seeing massive decline where never seen before. California been in the news for the last 3/4 years, your neighboring state Va, which had a bad oil spill that effected 300,000 plus people and we don't know the final status if those poor souls will develop cancer in 15 years from now? and good old coal ash in NC that been dumped by Duke Energy released into your drinking water and you don't care that this is happening in your own back yard? Chicago is dealing with coal ash piles 3 to 5 story high effecting the health of the people who lives near that plant!
Oh yeah two or three recent oil spills in Missouri that effected the drinking water down stream going into other neighboring states....
Look it up, these things happened within the last 3 years
and we need to get rid of the EPA that the Nixon put in place?

There will be wars for drinking water and food and it's knocking at our front doors. Do something now or suffer later.[this post was last edited: 3/23/2015-21:51]
 
There may be
no need to waste water in this part of the country because we have more water than we will need. Its too bad we cant send some, well alot to our western states that really need it bad. My problem is a septic system that has to pump uphill, so thats my only reason to save water when living on a lake with tons of fresh water and I dont want anything to ruin the lake at all.
 
If we're so short on energy, what's all this talk about exporting liquified natural gas and pumping tar sands across the mid-west. If we don't burn it the people we send it to will. It will have the same effect no matter where it's burned. I guess it's OK as long as we're not the ones burning it? We have to change all of our water heaters so we send LNG away. I guess it makes us look better if we produce it and don't use it? All the while causing our citizens more grief. I know I said I wouldn't debate but this just begs an answer. Can someone explain this to me from the logical perspective?[this post was last edited: 3/23/2015-22:08]
 
Washman

Provided the contractor that put that Goodman in didn't massively oversize it (that's very commonly done) or attach it to way undersized ductwork (also commonly done and a major killer in efficiency) then it should give you years of trouble free service. (Even if the above things were done it should still be reliable). Furnaces these days pretty much all have the same parts no matter who the manufacturer, and are generally pretty reliable. I'd expect 15 years before any major breakdowns. A common wear item is the hot surface igniter.
It's not like back in the 90s when they were experimenting with circuit boards and electronic ignition and those things broke down all the time. The first furnace we had replaced 7 years ago and has so far gone without a single hiccup. I do make sure to perform routine maintenance of course (mostly cleaning the filter, and have cleaned the blower wheel and inspected the heat exchanger once though that was unnecessary)
 

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