Buy your water heaters now!

[wayupnorth]

Sorry but for me, my main toilet has been there since 1995 and it had to be a 1.6 gallon that doesnt flush worth s+++ and you have to dump another basin to get everything to go away. It has a plastic cut off gallon bottle in the tank to flush. How is this conserving. I am going to replace it this year when it finally warms up with something that works. My kitchen appliances are 20 years old and my Maytag washer and dryer are 31 years old. I hate getting rid of anything that still works right.

 

[cleanteamofny]

Wayupnorth,

Upgrade to American Standard Cedet3. I have it in my bathroom and the flushing is awesome and never clog, no matter if I used half roll of scottie!

http://www.americanstandard-us.com/...&pc=3&c=4&p=1&so=pricehightolow&di=0&t=3&r=25

 

[norgeway]

Go to your thrift store

Buy a 1950s toilet that works with all brass valves!

 

[gusherb]

Unlike most appliances...

The high efficiency furnace isn't necessarily a total waste of money, replacing our 80%er with a 97% efficient Trane with a 2 stage gas valve and variable speed blower lopped quite a bit off our gas bills. (about 50-100 dollars a month)
Although replacing the furnace with more a efficient one isn't the only factor in reducing usage, but also making sure that it is sized correctly to the heat loss of the home on the coldest day of the year is also very crucial to getting optimal efficiency and lowering the bills.
But of course all that is a waste if you haven't properly insulated/air sealed your home, so if that's not done that should be the first thing tackled before even looking at replacing that old reliable tank of a furnace in the basement. The tighter you get your home the less the efficiency of the HVAC equipment makes a difference on utility costs.

To anyone looking for a good toilet I'd suggest giving the Toto Drake a good look, they're about 200 bucks at a plumbing supplier, built to high standards and most importantly, perform well on 1.6 GPF. And better yet when you need that extra oomph you can hold the handle and make that a 2.5 gallon flush that will clear just about anything away... (rivaling even some of the best old water guzzlers believe it or not...)

As far as home appliances go, all these changes really don't seem to have done much of anything but pad the manufacturers wallets further and start to piss off consumers. It really is devastating to me to see what has come of appliances in just the last 10 years. I think energy efficiency and "going green" has just been taken and run with as a marketing ploy for the industries to make yet even more money. The only people "going green" are the wallets of the manufacturers selling these "efficient" appliances.
In the end you're not saving anything if you have to rewash your dishes and run that front loader through another cycle cuz those sheets still stink of B.O.

My question I ask people these days is: "Since you've gone "green" have you actually noticed a massive drop in your utility costs?"... Most everyone I've asked have actually said "no"

 

[norgeway]

The fact remains!

YOU MUST HAVE WATER TO WASH ..clothes or dishes, I don't worry one bit about running out of water...the world never has!

 

[washman]

Gusherb

I have no doubt about the upcoming Goodman and it's ability to heat properly and save in gas costs. What concerns me is the complexity of the thing and how all those do-dads will hold up over the long haul.

A hi-eff anything is not cost effective when it breaks down or just plum wears out. Then all your fuel cost savings go into replacement/repairs. How does the individual save money that way?

Of course, I could be wrong on the Goodman. It might outlast my. Or the SQ. But somehow I doubt it.

At least the WH is a Bradford White. I think they are union made too!

 

[cleanteamofny]

I don't worry one bit about running out of water...the world never has!

So true, but drinking water is crucial in some area where we are seeing massive decline where never seen before. California been in the news for the last 3/4 years, your neighboring state Va, which had a bad oil spill that effected 300,000 plus people and we don't know the final status if those poor souls will develop cancer in 15 years from now? and good old coal ash in NC that been dumped by Duke Energy released into your drinking water and you don't care that this is happening in your own back yard? Chicago is dealing with coal ash piles 3 to 5 story high effecting the health of the people who lives near that plant!
Oh yeah two or three recent oil spills in Missouri that effected the drinking water down stream going into other neighboring states....
Look it up, these things happened within the last 3 years
and we need to get rid of the EPA that the Nixon put in place?

There will be wars for drinking water and food and it's knocking at our front doors. Do something now or suffer later.[this post was last edited: 3/23/2015-21:51]

 

[wayupnorth]

There may be
no need to waste water in this part of the country because we have more water than we will need. Its too bad we cant send some, well alot to our western states that really need it bad. My problem is a septic system that has to pump uphill, so thats my only reason to save water when living on a lake with tons of fresh water and I dont want anything to ruin the lake at all.

 

[beekeyknee]

If we're so short on energy, what's all this talk about exporting liquified natural gas and pumping tar sands across the mid-west. If we don't burn it the people we send it to will. It will have the same effect no matter where it's burned. I guess it's OK as long as we're not the ones burning it? We have to change all of our water heaters so we send LNG away. I guess it makes us look better if we produce it and don't use it? All the while causing our citizens more grief. I know I said I wouldn't debate but this just begs an answer. Can someone explain this to me from the logical perspective?[this post was last edited: 3/23/2015-22:08]

 

[gusherb]

Washman

Provided the contractor that put that Goodman in didn't massively oversize it (that's very commonly done) or attach it to way undersized ductwork (also commonly done and a major killer in efficiency) then it should give you years of trouble free service. (Even if the above things were done it should still be reliable). Furnaces these days pretty much all have the same parts no matter who the manufacturer, and are generally pretty reliable. I'd expect 15 years before any major breakdowns. A common wear item is the hot surface igniter.
It's not like back in the 90s when they were experimenting with circuit boards and electronic ignition and those things broke down all the time. The first furnace we had replaced 7 years ago and has so far gone without a single hiccup. I do make sure to perform routine maintenance of course (mostly cleaning the filter, and have cleaned the blower wheel and inspected the heat exchanger once though that was unnecessary)

 

[beekeyknee]

Induction fans on our furnace act up a lot and now they're going to force them on to water heaters? This is another problem being engineered into a device that was previously trouble free.

 

[norgeway]

A good old

pilot light Janitrol gas furnace from the 50s or 60s with cast iron burners and Dura Tube heat exchanger will be running when all the new induced draft units have burned up ,it can be effectively argued that the older unit is much more efficient and eco friendly in the long run!Its all about the government conspiring with manufacturers to sell more appliances/cars/etc, if they scare people into spending money,the government gets more tax money, and then the homeowner who bought the new junk, will have to buy more in 5 years or so, I do not and never have bought into the who energy efficient thing, a water heater needs only the same controls they have had for the past 75 years, with a pilot you have hot water when the power goes out, and it usualy never gives trouble, the more gizmos added to it, the more trouble it gives, the more you end up spending

 

[whirlcool]

TO tell you the truth, I'd be worried about the Goodman brand for anything for the home. The company is based here in Houston and the company USED to be good until Sonny boy took it over about 15 years ago. Here they are known as cheap, unreliable units and most honest a/c & heating companies stay away from them.

The owner of the company is in jail in Florida for a DUI manslaughter charge. He never was that involved with the company. He just pumped money out of it into his own bank accounts so he can party harder and longer.

I would really check into the reviews for the unit you are buying and check the integrity of the company that is installing it. From what I have heard/seen around here ANY other brand would be better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Goodman_(industrialist/polo_magnate)

 

[whirlcool]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.....

The past two hot water tanks we've had have been Bradford/White and they both have had electronic ignition. The newest one we've only had to relight once, but it was a bear to get going. After 15-20 times it eventually lit up. No problems since.

Can anyone tell me anything about Bradford/White hot water tanks? I only heard of them after we purchased this house. I thought they were a builders grade model. But some people indicated to me that they are better than that. A lot of plumbers in our area carry them.

You pay your money and takes your chances....

here are more reviews of Goodman furnaces...

http://https//www.furnacecompare.com/furnaces/goodman/reviews/

 

[norgeway]

Re Goodman

All the HVAC guys I know say RUN from anything Goodman,For oil furnaces their is but one brand, THERMO PRIDE, they also make a great gas furnace, Trane, Carrier and Bryant are good brands overall.

 

[gusherb]

I would take that with a grain of salt

Goodman gets a bad rap because they aren't very tight about who they sell to - just about anyone can get their hands on them... and they do. An HVAC system is only as good as the installer that put it in. and since anyone can get their hands on them there's MANY piss poor installations involving Goodman equipment, and when not installed right, any such equipment can suffer poor reliability and performance issues. (even the brands with the best reputations ie Trane, Lennox, etc)

 

[gusherb]

Allen

Bradford White is only sold through wholesale channels (plumbing supply houses) so they aren't well known by consumers nor available in the big box. They are about on par with Rheem but I've heard in the last couple of years that Bradford White tanks aren't having the greatest longevity lately. They are still a pretty decent brand though.
and then there's A.O. Smith, and State... Those have a horrible reputation and word on the street is to avoid them like the plague.

 

[whirlcool]

A friend of ours uses State hot water tanks. He's always crowing about the fact that they are the last hot water tank made in the USA. But he's always replacing thermocouples, resistors, gas valves, on them. Well at least they are serviceable! He has a number of rent houses and uses them in his own house and the rentals.

Should I start a maintenance program on our hot water tank after 10 years? Someone said I could be stirring up a hornets nest by doing so after using it for so long.
It could do things like leak, the drain valve could jam open, the top could fall apart when I remove the anode rod when checking it.

What do you think?

 

[warmsecondrinse]

Kenmore71 has hit the nail on the head.

The heat produced by a standing pilot is NOT wasted; it heats the water.

What then, is the actual amount of energy saved by the addition of all these complications? how many years go by until the homeowner starts seeing a return on investment? The design and production of these additional pieces is not carbon neutral, anyway.

And don't even think of trying to tell me that making a water heater depend on 2 fuel sources as opposed to one to do its job could possibly be an improvement.

A smart homeowner will simply buy 2 of the smaller, simpler water heaters and/or have the thermostat turned up.

Also, as I discussed this weekend, the average person is NOT going to complain about these high efficiency things not working:

-Toilet doesn't flush? It'll simply get flushed twice.

-Dishwasher doesn't clean dishes? Any dirty ones will simply be left in the dishwasher to be washed a second time. If the homeowner deems the problem to be water not hot enough, the dishwasher will simply be set to SaniRinse and left there.

-Washer doesn't clean or rinse clothes properly? The user will simply run the clothes through again.

If the government were seriously concerned with saving water, they'd mandate waterless urinals for all new construction.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for saving energy. I think all street lights nationwide should be replaced with LED bulbs ONE BY ONE as the current bulbs blow.

Jim

 

[gusherb]

The real problem with A.O. Smith/State (they are the same thing) is the F.V.I.R. system (flammable vapor ignition resistant), those were mandated in 2003 and they designed theirs poorly and stuck with it. They put the intake on the bottom and then put a filter on it so it would suck in all kinds of dust (or lint if in the laundry room) and get clogged and cause the flame to get snuffed out. Of course nobody knew these things had filters.
BF uses a side intake design with the entire bottom as a flame arrestor plate so it can't really clog, and they use a resettable thermal fuse. Rheem has a similar side intake design but has a spring loaded damper on the bottom with a glass fuse holding it open and if it melts it closes the damper... originally if this tripped it rendered the water heater useless but they've since made that fuse replaceable. There are virtually no reports of nuisance trips with Rheem or BF. State/AOSmith OTOH got a bad rap fast from all the nuisance calls from clogged filters etc.
Enough of my long winded explanation about FVIR lol.

Our Rheem was 15 years old the first time I flushed the sediment out of it, they say the tank can leak if you drain it after it's already older and that's true, but I never drain ours I just attach the hose and open it up and let the water run for a good 5 minutes, which I think is more effective then draining the tank.
I never bothered with the anode rod.
The plastic shutoff valve did stop sealing all the way so I put one of those hose end caps on it that you find on a lawn sprinkler and that "fixed" it. That water heater is 25 years old now (which is why I wanna replace it now lol). It has never given a single lick of trouble and has only ever had to be relit when the gas was shut off to do modifications to the gas piping in the house.