California Electricity Dilemma

[sudsmaster]

OK, here's the problem:

 

California is seeking to phase out not only sales of new gas fueled automobiles by 2035, but it also is restricting the installation of natural gas fired home heaters and water heaters by 2030. That's in about 8 years.

 

The replacement technology is supposed to be electric.

 

The big problem with that is that current the grid in this state obviously cannot handle the increased load from these changes. Already rate payers in my area of Northern California are being given a discount on electricity by cutting back usage between the hours of 4 pm and 9 pm every day. (I opted for a less severe cutback, from 5 pm to 8 pm M-F). In any case, if there isn't a problem with the grid, why the hell is the state offering these discounts at times when electricity is most in demand?

 

Currently my home is gas heated. The furnace (forced air) is at least 30 years old. How much longer it is going to last is anybody's guess. Same thing for the water heater - gas fired. I anticipate it will be VERY costly to run 220 volt circuits to the home furnace location and the water heater location, not to mention the greatly increased cost of that heat.

 

Yeah, I know, there are solutions like heat pumps, which supposedly use less electricity than resistance electric. However there is also the cost of replacing a functional gas fired system with a heat pump type of system. I have not idea at present how much that will run, but I imagine it will require a fair amount of new construction/digging/plumbing to be able to install/use a heat pump style system. How much? I'm gonna guess... at least $20 grand. Maybe more, maybe less.

 

Add to that cost, the problem of the grid not being able to handle the increased load from all these homes switching to electric.

 

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of protecting the environment and limiting global warming. Although right now with the home furnace running off and on all day, I don't see much global warming going on.

 

OK bitch/kvetch session over and done with. For now, at least.

 

YMMV

 

[qsd-dan]

Interesting times ahead in California. You could probably cross the border for a new gas water heater in the future but that most likely won't be the case for a central air unit. I would continue using both and think about buying a water heater in advance when it's on sale and stash it. As for central air, you may have to bite the bullet and replace it before the mandate takes effect if it keeps chugging along into 2029. By then it'll be 40 years old. I wouldn't wait too close to 2030 because there will most likely be as massive backlog on units and installers in 2029.

Hard to believe what was once highly touted as a clean and efficient mode of heating drastically changed only 10-ish years ago became demonized overnight. Most of housing in the Bay Area runs on gas furnaces, water heaters, and dryers. I believe the whole thing is a political move, that's just my opinion. With an unsteady grid, a gas water heater is a nice option. Are gas dryers on the chopping block as well?

Wanna bet that used gas appliance will have a massive price spike come 2030?

 

[combo52]

Keeping the electrical grid strong

I don’t think this is something we need to worry about, we haven’t even scratch the surface of adding additional solar and wind energy to the grid, my recent trip to California showed that not even 10% of homes have solar on them yet.

There’s also a lot to be done with energy conservation which will further extend the capacity of the grid.

Every home in California needs air conditioning anyway for safety especially as we age so you might as well put in a heat pump.

A heat pump water heater is very energy efficient using only 1/3 the energy of an electric water heater.

I do agree especially in colder climates we’re not gonna be able to move away from natural gas in the next 30 years climates like California there’s no reason for natural gas at all.

There’s a lot of resistance electric heating in California that was put in back in the 60s 70s even 80s that needs to be changed over to heat pumps to say nothing of changing over electric water heaters.

 

[maytag85]

Hate to say this, but if California doesn’t stop with banning this and that, it will cause people to leave this state in droves and people already have. It’s going to be very difficult for someone like me to move to another state since I’ve lived here all my life, it’s a shame since I’ll have to leave the place I grew up in but will stop here since I don’t want this to be moved over to the paying forums..

 

[combo52]

Having just spent a week in Pleasanton California

California is a very nice place there’s no danger of that many people leaving.

Sean you have to remember that the policies that are being put in place in California are being voted into place by the citizens of California the great majority of people living there want what is happening.

The wonderful thing is this is a free country and you can move somewhere else and they probably won’t even miss you lol

John

 

[maytag85]

Reply #4

Since I live here and you don’t, most people here have been brainwashed by the news media and it’s the people who live in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Sacramento who dictate the policies here. If it weren’t for those 3 cities, things would be the complete opposite of what they now in California. If I were to make the same assumptions about Maryland, you’d be telling me the same thing.

 

[combo52]

Maryland is much more progressive than California.

Hi Sean, if you don’t like living in a place with self rule I suggest you move to China or North Korea if you don’t want to trust your fellow citizens to make decisions.

John

 

[robbinsandmyers]

California will be the death of itself yet. Their ideas are well intended but they always put the cart before the horse. The electrical grid will have to be beefed up at least double capacity what it is currently, plus they'll need more power plants and sadly wind and solar arent the answer unless one goes up every hour because they add precious little to the grid at present. I also watched a very interesting video about electric cars. The guy being interviewed was either a scientist or physicist and when asked about the batteries of electric cars weighing 1500 lbs or the weight of 80 gallons of gas he said battery technology has come a long way but eventually it will hit a brick wall. He said the laws of physics will only let battery technology go so far and thats it. I think CA needs to sort out their current power grid disaster first before over taxing it even more by adding more electric cars or electric homes.

 

[maytag85]

Reply #6

“HI Sean, if you don’t like living in a place with self rule I suggest you move to China or North Korea if you don’t want to trust your fellow citizens to make decisions”

You have to realize they don’t make the propositions clear at times or the people on the ballot and purposely make it confusing so one gets your vote and the other doesn’t. If California keeps on going the same old way forever, it’ll soon be in shambles and practically is in shambles.

 

[combo52]

At least one and 20 cars are electric in northern California

It’s neat to see all the electric cars zipping around even the Lyft driver that took me on my one hour trip to San Francisco airport was driving a Tesla.

The electric cars are flying around on the highways 70 and 80 miles an hour actually pacing the traffic for the fuel burning vehicles, L O L

The vehicle I was in already had 250 miles on the charge and she said she was going to go all day on it yet, And this was at 5 AM.

If you can find somewhere better move, lol but they’ll be plenty of people to buy the house you’re leaving behind.

California and the whole mid to south east coast areas are still growing like crazy they’re still up desired location for people the world over.

John

 

[sudsmaster]

Yes, Dan, I don't have central air here. Just a gas fired central heating system, in the crawl space under the house. I do have some window A/C units but this past summer didn't need to install and run any of them.

 

This area has a bit of what SF Chronicle Herb Caen used to call "natural air conditioning". We don't get the same degree of cold sea air in the summer, but enough to make most summers livable.

 

 

 

[rp2813]

John, you've made some astute observations and some very good points.  There are Teslas everywhere you look, and I saw my first Lucid Air a few weeks ago (fingers crossed that the far better looking Lucid takes a big bite out of Tesla's sales figures, for reasons that should be obvious).

 

One thing I'm fairly certain about is that the only vote on phasing out gas appliances was made by the state legislature and not via public referendum.  I certainly would have voted against what's being planned if I had the opportunity and I think well over 50% of the voters would have too. 

 

[sudsmaster]

Ralph,

 

I'm wondering if it's possible for the electorate to rescind the decision to phase out gas appliances by 2030. Certainly there's enough time for that.

 

And I would vote to rescind.

 

 

[robbinsandmyers]

Seems 42% of all new ZEV are sold in CA. Im surprised UT even beat out NY! Maybe the stop & go traffic doesnt agree with them?

California ZEV Sales Near 18% of All New Car Sales in 2022 | Governor of California

SACRAMENTO – Today, California announced the latest data showing the state’s speedy acceleration toward zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs) and ZEV market dominance…

www.gov.ca.gov

 

[robbinsandmyers]

This really surprised me by state.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Maps and Data - Electric Vehicle Registrations by State

 

[sudsmaster]

California's lead in EV sales should not be a surprise, given that the state is mandating no new car sales of fossil fuel vehicles by 2035.

 

 

 

[Unimatic1140]

While I'm perfectly fine with all this legislation in California in most of the state the climate can support this however I'm curious what is going to happen in cities such as South Lake Tahoe, Big Bear City and other high elevation places that can have low temperatures from December thru February similar to what we have in Minneapolis in Dec, Jan and Feb? A heat pump wont cut it above 6000 feet.

 

[lowefficiency]

>> either a scientist or physicist and when asked about the batteries of electric cars weighing 1500 lbs or the weight of 80 gallons of gas he said battery
>> technology has come a long way but eventually it will hit a brick wall. He said the laws of physics will only let battery technology go so far and thats it.

That would have been a great argument in the 1980s.

Today, the current battery tech is good enough for millions of car owners, and the sales figures are only going up. The efficiency offsets the battery weight, and the power and convenience features that electric cars offer give them huge advantages in other categories.

Will batteries improve over time? Certainly. But the future of EVs doesn't depend on it - we're already past the threshold for consumer acceptance.

 

[lowefficiency]

>> The big problem with that is that current the grid in this state obviously cannot handle the increased load from these changes.

As a non-Californian, based on what we read in the news, it sounds like the California grid wasn't even good enough for the prior demands? (And that's not a dig - the infrastructure is a mess in the rest of the country as well.)

A big deadline like this might just be the much needed kick to get the essential grid up to shape in general - regardless of one's opinions on electric cars and appliances.