Candidate for worst new dishwasher????

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I think the

"real" Kitchen-Aids were great, tho' they were a bit small, you're right.
Andrew, I've lived "between" both worlds for over 25 years now and I'm used to the fact that in both Europe and the US there are folks who are firm believers that their way is the only way.
No doubt I come on much too strong with my disapointment at the way US product quality has slipped over the years.
At least we are in agreement over our love for vintage appliances.
Just one sad little note - forgive me -
When the Japanese first moved into the electronics sector, folks in the West laughed at them. By the mid-80's neither you nor we had any real market share.
Folks laughed and laughed at the Japanese cars "rice burners"...but Toyota is the #1 in sales, quality and customer satisfaction now...and Mercedes just suffered another round of recalls, never mind your country's automotive branch and all the workers losing their jobs.
Now the Chinese already have better quality than the US produces, nearly as good as ours - but at lower prices.
Maybe it is time to stop insisting that "we are the biggest, the best, the greatest, etc." in both cultures. Maybe it is time to figure out what makes the others better and see if we can't do even better ourselves.
Like I said, sorry - but I think about these things alot.
 
I would have to nominate the BS (Builder's Spec) Maytag installed in our model home that we purchased new two years ago. It too has just the spray cone for second rack, and rarely cleans much of anything. I have to run Heavy Duty cycles if I want any chance it will at least clean the cups, but forget about dried-on foods.

Interestingly, the BEST dishwasher I ever had was the Bosch I spec'd in my previous house, which I built new. It did have very long cycles, and it was pretty hard on plastics due to the fact it had an internal heater and got the water REALLY hot, but it was whisper quiet and it cleaned, and cleaned really well.

Makes me think the Bosch that Pulsator has is having some kind of problem.
 
Me too,

I suspect it has been damaged in shipping. B/S/H products are expected to have an overall failure rate of maximal 1per1000 and a failure which is serious enough for a service call of maximal 1per10000.
Of course, Bosch is not the top of the line brand in Europe, so these tolerances have to be seen as just average quality.
 
I don't think anyone in particular does it "best", per se, they just do it differently, many times based on years and years of traditions. And there is nothing wrong with that. Trying to introduce those types of changes into different cultures is difficult at best. Let's face it, people don't like change, and don't adapt easily. But in the end, you have to look at the results....that's where the rubber meets the road. Either you get the results you desire and/or expect, or you don't. To the average consumer, everything else is immaterial to the end result. Now we're not your average consumers on the appliance end...we know too much. But still, I don't care how it does it, all I know is that it does it and it's not me standing over the sink having to do it myself! To me, that's the worst of all the household jobs (maybe next to cleaning the windows).

Honestly, no one makes what they used to make as well as they used to make it today. Not even Miele. It's truly a shame, but it is what it is. If consumers don't demand changes, changes will never happen. And they need to do that with their wallets.
 
Agreed!

But, and this is what I keep (shrilly and loudly and obnoxiously) saying:
The Chinese are improving their "perceived" quality enormously and the consumers are "voting" - with their pocket books.
And that's enough 'bout that.
So how is the problem child coming? Any news from the Bosch front?
 
I don't think anyone in particular does it better, per s

Sorry, I don't think I could disagree more. It's possible other people put other priorities first, and the Bosch did have its downsides. It took a long time, and because it didn't have a drying cycle the dishes still were wet at the end of the run. And as stated, because it got the water so hot I did notice it destroyed some of my cheaper plastic implements, and clouded others.

I read a lot of complaints about those items on opinions sites, but neither bothered me. Who cares if the dishes need to air dry a little, as long as it performed flawlessly in its primary mission...cleaning (which it did).
 
My worst dishwashers

GE,Magic Chef,Hot Point have been the worst for me. They are the cheapest. They all have wash "towers" that pop up in the middle to get the top rack clean. They all lack good filtration. I always thought it was a pain to load the lower rack and have to work around the middle for the "tower".
 
My favorite dishwasher

Kitchenaid Superba 1978-1995. These were the best of the Kitchenaids. I liked the rack design. Never pre rinsed. The dishes always came out clean,dry,no spots. Trouble free.... I did have a 2003 Kenmore portable dishwasher that worked just as well as the Kitchenaids. Very similar machines.
 
GE Profile even MORE problems;

Wouldn't you know, the one appliance I have never "played" with, had its control panel die last week. Of course, it is three weeks out of warranty.

The Man-to-fix, came out and did announce that there was an extended warranty on the control panel, and that it would be about a week to get a replacement.

This follows the replacement of a defective fill valve and a stuck check valve in the drain.

One thing the old ball-and-chain and I have found out by doing the dishes by hand for a week: The glasses and stainless come out sparkling and spot free. But, is it worth the work? We thinks not!
 
I just used my friends TOL Maytag.. I used to think they where alright dishwashers, but i think not... The you tube video showing them slamming the door is semi correct.. I found the door very hard to open and close.. Also did not remove baked on grime as well as my Hotpoint.. Hmmmm.. Did another load and it did better using the cascade sample and a tab, like i do for heavly soiled loads in my hotpoint and have done before. They have a set of F&P dish drawers in the garage that are the first set out and they used them daily until they installed this.. Its being returned next week for a new set of dish drawers...The old ones don't pump out water in the top drawer and the bottom drawer hasn't worked in a year.. They said all it does is drain, wash and drain... Nothing else.. If they fill it up it works... Is it worth me trying to save?? Couldn't get pictures as it would have been odd... They also have the original Roto Rack Kenmore(1968) from the house in the shed... But the tub is eat up with rust... It will be headed to the krusher soon
 
The worst dishwasher we ever had was a 1988 Kenmore TOL unit. Form the moment it was installed it was noisy, didn't clean very well either. It died in 1991 after the plastic tub rusted through. A hole opened up in the tub right over the motor. It went out in a blaze of glory!
It was replaced by a near TOL Maytag. It wasn't but about $400 or so. But the build quality was excellent. It cleaned like no other dishwasher we have ever had before or since. the door was so strong, I swear someone could probably stand on it and not hurt it. I wish we could have taken that DW with us. We moved out of that house in 1999 and the dishwasher still looked and operated like the day it was installed.
 
Lordy! What year is that TOL Maytag dishwasher, Chad? Mine's an '05 and it cleans fantastically. In fact, I've been using the 20-minute InstaWash cycle a lot lately and full loads are coming out really well. It handles crusty, baked-on pots and pans better than any of my previous DWers---including KitchenAid (both Hobart & post-Hobart vintages), Whirlpool, and Frigidaire. No problems with the door, either...

In fact, after making several loaves of bread and a batch of blueberry jam today, I put the doughy food processor bowls and all the jam-making equipment---including a really gunky Dutch oven, jar funnel and a couple of big stainless stirring spoons---and selected InstaWash because I was in a hurry. Figured I'd have to do a fair amount of post-wash touching up. To my utter amazement, the only item that wasn't spotless was one of the two food processor bowls; it had 2 little bits of dough still attached, which I wiped away with a damp paper towel. Even the sticky SS measuring cups on the upper rack's cup shelf came clean. Not bad for a 20-minute cycle!
 
Its a 2007.. The one in the linkie.. Lowes replaced it with another one and it too is a dud from what Kevin told me, esp. the door part, had a cabniet guy out who checked evrything otu and it was all good, said the outside warps easily because its plastic and the way you have to screw them in? Not sure what of that is acccurte but.. .. SO they are deciding what to do... They *might* get a Miele... But so far another set of dish drawers looks like the choice

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=141048-99-MDB8951AWW&lpage=none
 
Chad--I know know what the problem is; there's a plastic trim strip which gets screwed into the underside of the countertop. It tends to warp a bit during long, high-temp cycles, and the top edge of the door can hit it. My dealer/installer was aware of this and put in one or two extra screws. No problem with door hitting the strip. The strip always reverts to its correct shape once the DW cools a bit after the cycle is completed.

I'm sorry to hear your friend has had bad luck with Maytag dishwashers! I just can't say enough good things about mine. I love the loading flexibility and the fantastic cleaning results. The dish drawers---or especially a Miele---will be quieter, though.
 
As for rentals (Ellerdale Dr., Cherry Blossom and Chase and Betty Jean), they all didn't clean well, but Chase gets my nod the the WORST rental dishwasher. It's so loud, you had the blast the stereo up 6 notches to drown out the noise. Also you couldn't run it at night, for you'd stayed away till that thing hits dry cycle.

For non-rentals, we've had real bad luck with Kenmore, starting with the 1993 Kenmore MOL dishwasher. It didn't clean very well, and you had to start the machine EXACTLY on the line between Pots and Pans and Normal or it would skip several pre-rinses.

When it broke down August 17, 1997, we decided to buy another Kenmore on September 8th. Consumer reports rated it #1, as did Sears. HA! Another poor cleaner and if you place a casserole dish in front, everytime you pull the top rack out, the spray arm would catch that dish and pull out the bottom shelf. Thankfully the machines pump broke down February 27, 2005. We got the Maytag 2 rack Tall tub and installed it the following Tuesday. It cleans wonderfully. Even dried on Mac and Cheese or steak yiblets come out spotless. I like it.
 
I beg to differ

My Chinese Haier rental dishwasher has to be the worst.
It's not as loud as the old GEs...but its fit and finish, washability and build quality and cycle programing are outrageous.

It is a horrible copy of a morphed GE/Whirlpool machine with the whirlpool style inward sparying wash arm and a GE style PowerTower.
But it doesn't wash!!!
It has NO filtration and the water jets were aimed so far inward on an angle they never touched the dishes. The outermost jets were a mere 2mm in diameter, and were clogged on the first cycle run.
In order to get marginal results, I had to drill out the outside jets, and bend the [whatever non-ferrous] metal spray jets to a more vertical angle.

It's bad guys. Haier is the worst. They didn't even try to build a "decent" machine.

On the upside, it has an American sourced GE pump and motor.
 
Maytag dishwasher

I use my friends Maytag tall tub dishwasher often in their home. They got it in 2003. The motor has always made a grinding noise periodically. Not sure what that is all about. I suspect cheap plastic parts.It does clean the dishes well. Takes almost 2 hours on light wash,extra rinse,heated dry to complete the cycle. I do not care for the tall tub. It is too low to the ground. You really have to bend down for that lower rack. I also do not care for the siverware holder. I prefer a long silverware holder in the front. Not a rectangle one in the front/middle. (Just a preference). The Maytag is o.k. since it cleans well. I like Kitchenaid features and design better. I like stainless steel tubs much better than plastic.

Jim
 
I never seen a dishwasher with a plastic tub, even the very BOL that has been installed in my new flat is stainless steel and it has two spray arms, one for the lower rack and one for the upper rack, can you show me a photo of a single spray arm + spray cone(?) plastic tub dishwasher with the lid open? I'm very curious!
Thanks!
 
can you show me a photo of a single spray arm + spray cone(?

See Explodeer's pictures in the thread "Is My Dishwasher Loaded Correctly". That's exactly what you're wanting to see. The "spray cone" rises from the middle of the spray arm at the bottom as a telescope through the middle of the bottom rack to shower the top rack.
 
GE Profile even MORE problems;

Just got word that the control panel for my 1 year old GE PDW 8200 Profile has been back ordered until 7-27. That will make nearly 2 months without a dishwasher. The darn thing is barely over a year old and has had two previous repairs. To make matters worse, even with rubber gloves I'm getting dishpan hands.

I do have the number for GE customer relations, but have not gotten through to anyone whose english language skills are adquate.
 
Whirlpool Quiet Wash Plus - I've only used it once, was not
happy, but could take some user training possibly.

What struck me above - 3rd comment - Roper being made by
Whirlpool in Canada and the center spray cone. That sounds
a lot like what I have. There is a center cone that looks
like it is supposed to spray water up into an upper spray
arm? (inch and a half leap of faith) Are we talking about
the same thing?
 
It is so tough. One would like to think the BOL, MOL trash
would just go away. I have no problem with bells and whistles,
but just design them to do the job they're supposed to do first
and leave that for later.

It made me think of when I was in Moscow 10 years ago. Went to
a "grocery" store with my friend who was living there. The
shelves were practically bare and the quality was terrible -
we ended up with a chicken (or parts.)

I see a failure on both ends - though that might be comparing
apples and oranges. Food vs. "appliances". But shouldn't a
capitalist driven society strive to provide a better product
that consumers would want? As above, bells and whistles will
cost more, but shouldn't the product do the basic job is was
(supposedly) designed to do? A wellspring of products, many
of which fail to perform, is really no better in the cosmic
sense of things than a failure to provide - or some might say
it is worse because it is wasting resources that could be put
to better use for mankind.

Hmmm - I think I've just gotten too philisophical.
 
Goprog, I don't think your post is that out of scope for new appliances. When I was in elementary school, we were taught that one of the evils of the Soviet planned economy was that there was only one brand of anything. Here in America, we had competition. But now, things are far different. Corporations wanting to make the best for the consumer have been replaced by corporations wanting to make obscene profits for their officers and investors. Many corporations have refused to invest money in plant modernization because they are planning to send manufacturing outside the country. They have squandeered money buying up other companies that are in trouble for the same reason. It is sad that this is encouraged by tax policies. And Detroit is still screaming that meeting 30 mpg fuel efficiency standards will cost them too much money, but they spend millions lobbying Congress to vote against the standards instead of on research to make better products. It is sort of a shame that appliance manufacturers have been so quick to bow to the stupidity of some of the "energy saving" demands of bureaucrats who test dishwasher performance with clean dishes. As long as corrupt politicians give corporations incentives to dodge taxes and send American jobs abroad, this is what we will have to expect. Unfortunately, when all of this catches up with the country, the ones with lots of ill-gotten money will still avoid most of the mess they have made for the rest of us.
 
Dj-Gabriele

I don't know about Italy, but in the UK you can purchase a hybrid plastic and stainless steel dishwasher. It is the bottom of the range Bosch 'Classixx', model SGS-45-C-02-GB.

The tub walls, and ceiling are stainless steel; the tub floor is "Polinox".

Looking at the latest Bosch brochure, there only seems to be the one hybrid model; all the rest are stainless steel.
 
The biggest variable, that I have found, in dishwasher performance is soft water. The biggest culprit in the "hardness" is calcium carbonate. With a properly sized water softener, hardness is reduced to near zero grains.

I've noticed even mediocre dishwashers will generally perform well with an enzyme detergent, and water is of the right temp and soft. Calcium carbonate hinders detergents ability to hold food particles in suspension, and may leave calcite deposits on the dishes and machine.

I am to dishwashers, what Rob (Unimatic1140) is to washing machines. My hobby (unfortunately to my pocketbook) is to buy dishwashers and performance test them. Both new, sometimes, and used ones from thrift stores, people's curbside trash, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't have space, like Rob, does to ever keep more than two or three in stock at any one time and have a little mini-museum.

Since I live by myself (if you don't count three cats)I only run the machine once to twice a week. By the end of the week the dishes are pretty sad with dried oatmeal, dried cat food, residual gravy. cole slaw, etc. So I give the machines a pretty good shake-down.

My favorite machines thus far:

Late 1980's Maytag with the reverse rack loading (plates on top rack, glasses on lower), and a hard food waste disposer. Great scrub-ability and the hard food waste disposer gobbles up cat food, thin noodles, etc. Except for bones, you really don't need to scrape...just tilt off big items and load.

Whirpools and Kenmore also do a nice job of gobbling up garbage.

As far as shine factor, I have a 1999 Frigidaire, that on the Pots&Pans cycle, has four final rinses. I've had so many dishwashers that I am jaded and it's hard to impress me. But nothing has ever made dishes literally shine and sparkle like the Frigidaire. Older dishes even look new when they come out. But the down side...scrubability is somewhat less than Whirlpool and Maytag. Burned on foods don't come off as well. Large fried egg whites and big noodles can't make it through the small grid openings and sometimes a few remnants are left in the grate.

The winner for overall "maybe not great at any one thing, but overall good at everything" award goes to older GE's (models with the center tower, self-cleaning filter in the back bottom of the tub, and soft food waste disposer.)

The old GSD1200 with the multi-orbit wash arm was a fun machine. It had three rinses and even did even slightly better than the classic GSD2800 electronic, which had only two final rinses, as far as the shine factor. (I believe GE added a third rinse in 1993 when they went from the GSD 2800G to the GSD2800L model with the new control panel.)

BTW...Those of you with the tower GE/Hotpoints. Don't you find the sound of the machine soothing?

Noisy dishwashers get on my nerves. Something about the tower GE's. they are not overly quiet, but the continuous wishwashing sound is somehow comforting and familiar. Good to turn on right before you go to bed, it kinda of lulls you to sleep. :-)
 
GSD2800

Gary,

I am apparently a little off on the "L" suffix. You have one of the later "classic" 2800's. I believe they were in production (approximately 1982 - 1992). For the last year of production they went to totally different control panel, flat front with the touchpads running in a straight line on the left side.

I don't recall any changes in racking, but they added an additional final rinse and took off some of the diagnostics. On your machine, the "Extra rinse" "option increases the final rinse time about five minutes, but does not do an additional water change.

The washability of your model is good, but it went up a little when they added the extra fill rinse.

I've had two 2800's like yours and the newer replacement(I think it was the 1993 or maybe the 1994 model) just didn't have the heart and soul that your model does, even if it did rinse a little better.

GE never made a model with more diagnostics that the 2800. The "blocked wash arm" alarm has saved me many times from having a load of dishes come out dirty because something has fallen or stuck down from the lower rack and kept the arm from rotating.

The "detergent cup open", "low water temperature" and "blocked drain" alarms were pretty unique to the 2800 also.

Its a great machine, hang onto it!

Barry
 

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