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Let THEM snort it to test it.
Candidate for worst new dishwasher????
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whirlcool
Well-known member
In my posting above I mention that I thought the Electrosol wasn't doing the job in our DW. Well, the DW was having a problem, that's why it wasn't cleaning. This became the subject of another thread. All fixed now and Electrosol is doing a good job.
Jamie, we too have a new Bosch dishwasher, SHE58. I've not had issues to the same extent you have, however, I did have to experiment with detergents that work best. In our old DW, I used plain Cascade powder, Electrasol and Dish Drops tabs. With excellent results. In the new Bosch, the first two didn't work well. I've found that Cascade Complete powder, Dish Drops tabs and the very expensive Miele tabs work much better(I bought them at Arbor Vacuum). I've used Ecover tabs, also. They work pretty well(Whole Foods and Arbor Farms have them). Over all I really do like the Miele best, I wish they weren't so expensive, followed by the Dish Drops. I would be happy to pop a couple of each in the post for you to try. With this new dishwasher I'm able to get baking dishes, pots and pans and baked on stuff, at least, mostly clean. Something I would never have been able to do in the old TOL Frigidaire.
I think Launderess is correct. These machines are very water and energy efficient and require a bit of a learning curve to get the best results. I've had to experiment with detergents in my Bosch 6400 washer, as well. Our old Frigidaire FL could take just about any detergent I threw at it, except the P&G HE liquids, the Bosch is quite picky, even my favourite, SA8 can be too sudsy. The best ones I've found are Persil, Persil Megaperls Colour and Shaklee powders.
Now that I've found products that work in my machines I'm really happy with the results. Hope this helps, Todd
I think Launderess is correct. These machines are very water and energy efficient and require a bit of a learning curve to get the best results. I've had to experiment with detergents in my Bosch 6400 washer, as well. Our old Frigidaire FL could take just about any detergent I threw at it, except the P&G HE liquids, the Bosch is quite picky, even my favourite, SA8 can be too sudsy. The best ones I've found are Persil, Persil Megaperls Colour and Shaklee powders.
Now that I've found products that work in my machines I'm really happy with the results. Hope this helps, Todd
Pulsator,
There's a chance that the screen/trap is not seated properly on your Bosch. Make sure the central cylinder is aligned properly, and then with a partial turn clockwise, it should lock firmly in place. Anything else will result in food particles on the finished dishes and an overall bad result.
The trick, I've found, is aligning the cylinder properly to begin with. No matter how many times I've done it, it seems to take a couple three tries before I get it. But once in, my SHU43C works great - far better than the MOL Frigidaire it replaced (which had fatal debris screen warpage/leakage issues).
There's a chance that the screen/trap is not seated properly on your Bosch. Make sure the central cylinder is aligned properly, and then with a partial turn clockwise, it should lock firmly in place. Anything else will result in food particles on the finished dishes and an overall bad result.
The trick, I've found, is aligning the cylinder properly to begin with. No matter how many times I've done it, it seems to take a couple three tries before I get it. But once in, my SHU43C works great - far better than the MOL Frigidaire it replaced (which had fatal debris screen warpage/leakage issues).
Shipping tape?
Jamie,
German dishwashers (and washers) are shipped with various little protective pieces of tape, foam rubber, films, etc. If your machine was set up by the installers, they may either have forgotten something and it is now slowly dissolving and blocking a filter or they knocked something loose by accident.
German dishwashers - B/S/H or Miele or otherwise do not leave residue on dishes, period. Like Italian machines, they use a series of filters to trap and remove the food particles. So make sure all the filters (and I do mean all) are clean and installed properly.
Any decent enzymatic detergent (Great Value is very good, actually) will work here.
Stupid question, and please forgive me for asking...but the first time my mother used my Miele in Germany, she set it to "Vorspülen" and thought, after the 17 minute pre-wash, it was done.
Given the way the American dishwashers are "dumbed down" by the German manufacturers, nothing would surprise me.
(The why of that is interesting, but not for this thread.)
Jamie,
German dishwashers (and washers) are shipped with various little protective pieces of tape, foam rubber, films, etc. If your machine was set up by the installers, they may either have forgotten something and it is now slowly dissolving and blocking a filter or they knocked something loose by accident.
German dishwashers - B/S/H or Miele or otherwise do not leave residue on dishes, period. Like Italian machines, they use a series of filters to trap and remove the food particles. So make sure all the filters (and I do mean all) are clean and installed properly.
Any decent enzymatic detergent (Great Value is very good, actually) will work here.
Stupid question, and please forgive me for asking...but the first time my mother used my Miele in Germany, she set it to "Vorspülen" and thought, after the 17 minute pre-wash, it was done.
Given the way the American dishwashers are "dumbed down" by the German manufacturers, nothing would surprise me.
(The why of that is interesting, but not for this thread.)
The filter is in place and seated nice and tight, and I installed the machine myself. I made sure to remove all the prtotective tape and styrofoam inserts in the machine. Where does one get STPP powder? I've been wanting to try some for both the dishes and my whites ever since the Tucson wash-in!
[Na5O10P3]n
This product is not regulated in the US. The Chemistry Store (see link below) sells it in small quantities...
But, Jamie, forgive my German stubborness here, it is impossible for this dishwasher to be performing so poorly unless something is broken or an important step has been overlooked.
You did not mention the model number, so here are some things I would look for here in Germany:
- Soft water. Since German water is frequently very very hard, our dishwashers are always built to use a water softener or to use detergent with an extra water softener built in. Does yours have a built in water softener? If so, is there salt in the recharger?
- Temperature. Some electronic controls freak out if the incomming water is too cold or too hot (Whirlpool have had to deal with this and there was a cool video clip on it in a thread not too long ago.) Is the machine set to heat the water or to just use whatever comes in?
-Detergent Dispensing. Is the detergent being dispensed into the pre-wash, leaving none behind for the main wash? Don't laugh; those B/S/H covers can be hard to close properly.
-Rinse agent. If the setting is too high or too low this can cause problems.
-Not enough water. The arms should all be moving freely during the wash. Especially the topmost arm, which is responsible for cleaning the cutlery should really whiz along. Now, some B/S/H models have "partial fill" settings which turn off some of the spray arms. This saves water...but if that setting has somehow been activated on your model...well, it would explain everything.
The basic rule of European dishwashers, as opposed to American is that we hate to pre-wash, don't see why we should (that is the whole idea of a dish-WASHER) and loading is not all that critical, either.
Ah. Just had a thought. I had to install a check-valve on my mum's dishwasher last year, the garbage disposal was overflowing back into it. (I know, I know).
This product is not regulated in the US. The Chemistry Store (see link below) sells it in small quantities...
But, Jamie, forgive my German stubborness here, it is impossible for this dishwasher to be performing so poorly unless something is broken or an important step has been overlooked.
You did not mention the model number, so here are some things I would look for here in Germany:
- Soft water. Since German water is frequently very very hard, our dishwashers are always built to use a water softener or to use detergent with an extra water softener built in. Does yours have a built in water softener? If so, is there salt in the recharger?
- Temperature. Some electronic controls freak out if the incomming water is too cold or too hot (Whirlpool have had to deal with this and there was a cool video clip on it in a thread not too long ago.) Is the machine set to heat the water or to just use whatever comes in?
-Detergent Dispensing. Is the detergent being dispensed into the pre-wash, leaving none behind for the main wash? Don't laugh; those B/S/H covers can be hard to close properly.
-Rinse agent. If the setting is too high or too low this can cause problems.
-Not enough water. The arms should all be moving freely during the wash. Especially the topmost arm, which is responsible for cleaning the cutlery should really whiz along. Now, some B/S/H models have "partial fill" settings which turn off some of the spray arms. This saves water...but if that setting has somehow been activated on your model...well, it would explain everything.
The basic rule of European dishwashers, as opposed to American is that we hate to pre-wash, don't see why we should (that is the whole idea of a dish-WASHER) and loading is not all that critical, either.
Ah. Just had a thought. I had to install a check-valve on my mum's dishwasher last year, the garbage disposal was overflowing back into it. (I know, I know).
andrewinorlando
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2004
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The basic rule of European dishwashers, as opposed to Americ
I thought the basic rule of any dishwasher, not just German, is that you don't have to pre-wash or pre-rinse? I know I sure as heck don't rinse anything that goes in my GE and have no trouble getting spotlessly clean dishes, glasses and pots out of it. Same with my previous KitchenAid...both American machines. User manual even says not to pre-rinse, so I don't. Why would this be limited to just German machines?
I thought the basic rule of any dishwasher, not just German, is that you don't have to pre-wash or pre-rinse? I know I sure as heck don't rinse anything that goes in my GE and have no trouble getting spotlessly clean dishes, glasses and pots out of it. Same with my previous KitchenAid...both American machines. User manual even says not to pre-rinse, so I don't. Why would this be limited to just German machines?
I split my time between Europe and the US,
not as a jet-setter, but because I have to.
In Germany I use a Miele and a Candy.
In the US, I use a Maytag and a GE.
All four machines have good ratings in their respective consumer tests.
The European machines take nearly twice as long to clean.
The European machines start with cold water.
The European machines make their own "soft-water".
European dishwasher detergent is 30% phosphate plus enyzmes and oxygen bleach.
Because they start with cold water, European dishwashers are able to heat the water to the best temperatures: first to the temps. the enzymes like. Then to the temps. the bleach likes. And let's face it, 30% phosphate is probably 99.99% of the cleaning difference, anyway.
They have the time to really pre-wash (my Miele takes 17 minutes). They have the time to really wash until really clean.
US dishwashers have to work with warm water which is already so warm that the bleach partially deactivates the enzymes.
If the dishwasher does heat the water, then only to "boost" it. At 110V, 20Amps= 2200W Maximum you just can't do more than about 1°/minute.
(Mine runs at 230V, 16 amps=3680W Maximum. Big whomping difference.)(Actually, it could also run on 3-phase but we aren't going to have that discussion again. Ever.)
We all understand saponification and we all know about the attacking the glasses problem so that is why you have to load with dirty dishes.
And this is where the differences come into play.
Pre-rinsing here means remove the bones and olive pits. Burnt on, baked on, even cream-of-wheat doesn't matter. It all comes out clean.
Andrew, I'm sorry, but since I use two very good US dishwashers regularly, you just are not going to get me to believe that they clean non-pre-rinsed cream-of-wheat and burnt on eggs, baked on potatoes completely. They don't and they can't.
This is not a case of me bashing your country. It is, as Laundress so frequently says: time, heat, agitation. So to speak.
When you consider the limitations they have to deal with, US dishwashers do a good job.
not as a jet-setter, but because I have to.
In Germany I use a Miele and a Candy.
In the US, I use a Maytag and a GE.
All four machines have good ratings in their respective consumer tests.
The European machines take nearly twice as long to clean.
The European machines start with cold water.
The European machines make their own "soft-water".
European dishwasher detergent is 30% phosphate plus enyzmes and oxygen bleach.
Because they start with cold water, European dishwashers are able to heat the water to the best temperatures: first to the temps. the enzymes like. Then to the temps. the bleach likes. And let's face it, 30% phosphate is probably 99.99% of the cleaning difference, anyway.
They have the time to really pre-wash (my Miele takes 17 minutes). They have the time to really wash until really clean.
US dishwashers have to work with warm water which is already so warm that the bleach partially deactivates the enzymes.
If the dishwasher does heat the water, then only to "boost" it. At 110V, 20Amps= 2200W Maximum you just can't do more than about 1°/minute.
(Mine runs at 230V, 16 amps=3680W Maximum. Big whomping difference.)(Actually, it could also run on 3-phase but we aren't going to have that discussion again. Ever.)
We all understand saponification and we all know about the attacking the glasses problem so that is why you have to load with dirty dishes.
And this is where the differences come into play.
Pre-rinsing here means remove the bones and olive pits. Burnt on, baked on, even cream-of-wheat doesn't matter. It all comes out clean.
Andrew, I'm sorry, but since I use two very good US dishwashers regularly, you just are not going to get me to believe that they clean non-pre-rinsed cream-of-wheat and burnt on eggs, baked on potatoes completely. They don't and they can't.
This is not a case of me bashing your country. It is, as Laundress so frequently says: time, heat, agitation. So to speak.
When you consider the limitations they have to deal with, US dishwashers do a good job.
Pre-rinse
I have a 1991 Maytag and I do not pre-rinse. I think it is a waste of time - that is what the dishwasher is for. Most everyone I know, however does pre-rinse and I keep trying to tell them that it is not necessary, provided that the dishwasher is loaded properly, but they refuse to believe it or to give it a try. I've never had problems with the dishes coming out dirty. And BTW, my Maytag is the older style ie. the plates on the top rack and the glasses, cups on the bottom. I put everything in the dishwasher except for the pots/pans and that's only because I don't want to ruin the finish.
I have a 1991 Maytag and I do not pre-rinse. I think it is a waste of time - that is what the dishwasher is for. Most everyone I know, however does pre-rinse and I keep trying to tell them that it is not necessary, provided that the dishwasher is loaded properly, but they refuse to believe it or to give it a try. I've never had problems with the dishes coming out dirty. And BTW, my Maytag is the older style ie. the plates on the top rack and the glasses, cups on the bottom. I put everything in the dishwasher except for the pots/pans and that's only because I don't want to ruin the finish.
andrewinorlando
Well-known member
- Joined
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- Messages
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Panthera -
You can believe whatever you like, doesn't really matter. Your experiences are just different, but my GE does it quite well. And my mid-90's KitchenAid Superba also handles those same jobs with equal and sometimes better ability, just a shorter cycle with much more water and noise. Quite honestly, I wouldn't keep a dishwasher that couldn't remove such basic items as cooked cereal, rice and potatoes. And I'm a big fan of hot cereals. The GE does it in a 95 - 102(+/-) minute Cookware cycle (minus the drying time). Cream of wheat and oatmeal are no problem for it from dishes or pots. Neither are eggs, egg casseroles, potatoes or cream sauces, casseroles, pots, pans, etc. Only thing it won't remove is proteins or starches that have burned onto cookware. The quality of the water you start with makes a big difference, and mine is somewhat soft, at about 6 grains of hardness, but with good overall quality. The loading is the other key....do a crappy job loading it, it gives you a crappy job back. The KitchenAid doesn't care how you load it, it just washes what you put in it, just doesn't have the space of a GE or a Miele at all. The GE may not be a Miele, for sure not built like one, but it doesn't cost what one does, either. But it sure works well. The KitchenAid is what it is...a workhorse that's built like a tank. Even my old GE, with wash tower on the bottom, had no trouble removing cooked cereals, pasta, potatoes, etc., at all. Just couldn't clean cups and glasses worth a damn on the top rack with big stuff on the bottom, so I got rid of it because I was tired of trying to scrape the dried on crap off the cups and glasses at the end of the cycle.
Overall, I'd much rather have my KitchenAid, but with the GE's space and rack layout. But such is life....the GE does the trick just fine. And I still don't pre-rinse anything that goes in either machine, and never will.
You can believe whatever you like, doesn't really matter. Your experiences are just different, but my GE does it quite well. And my mid-90's KitchenAid Superba also handles those same jobs with equal and sometimes better ability, just a shorter cycle with much more water and noise. Quite honestly, I wouldn't keep a dishwasher that couldn't remove such basic items as cooked cereal, rice and potatoes. And I'm a big fan of hot cereals. The GE does it in a 95 - 102(+/-) minute Cookware cycle (minus the drying time). Cream of wheat and oatmeal are no problem for it from dishes or pots. Neither are eggs, egg casseroles, potatoes or cream sauces, casseroles, pots, pans, etc. Only thing it won't remove is proteins or starches that have burned onto cookware. The quality of the water you start with makes a big difference, and mine is somewhat soft, at about 6 grains of hardness, but with good overall quality. The loading is the other key....do a crappy job loading it, it gives you a crappy job back. The KitchenAid doesn't care how you load it, it just washes what you put in it, just doesn't have the space of a GE or a Miele at all. The GE may not be a Miele, for sure not built like one, but it doesn't cost what one does, either. But it sure works well. The KitchenAid is what it is...a workhorse that's built like a tank. Even my old GE, with wash tower on the bottom, had no trouble removing cooked cereals, pasta, potatoes, etc., at all. Just couldn't clean cups and glasses worth a damn on the top rack with big stuff on the bottom, so I got rid of it because I was tired of trying to scrape the dried on crap off the cups and glasses at the end of the cycle.
Overall, I'd much rather have my KitchenAid, but with the GE's space and rack layout. But such is life....the GE does the trick just fine. And I still don't pre-rinse anything that goes in either machine, and never will.
I think the
"real" Kitchen-Aids were great, tho' they were a bit small, you're right.
Andrew, I've lived "between" both worlds for over 25 years now and I'm used to the fact that in both Europe and the US there are folks who are firm believers that their way is the only way.
No doubt I come on much too strong with my disapointment at the way US product quality has slipped over the years.
At least we are in agreement over our love for vintage appliances.
Just one sad little note - forgive me -
When the Japanese first moved into the electronics sector, folks in the West laughed at them. By the mid-80's neither you nor we had any real market share.
Folks laughed and laughed at the Japanese cars "rice burners"...but Toyota is the #1 in sales, quality and customer satisfaction now...and Mercedes just suffered another round of recalls, never mind your country's automotive branch and all the workers losing their jobs.
Now the Chinese already have better quality than the US produces, nearly as good as ours - but at lower prices.
Maybe it is time to stop insisting that "we are the biggest, the best, the greatest, etc." in both cultures. Maybe it is time to figure out what makes the others better and see if we can't do even better ourselves.
Like I said, sorry - but I think about these things alot.
"real" Kitchen-Aids were great, tho' they were a bit small, you're right.
Andrew, I've lived "between" both worlds for over 25 years now and I'm used to the fact that in both Europe and the US there are folks who are firm believers that their way is the only way.
No doubt I come on much too strong with my disapointment at the way US product quality has slipped over the years.
At least we are in agreement over our love for vintage appliances.
Just one sad little note - forgive me -
When the Japanese first moved into the electronics sector, folks in the West laughed at them. By the mid-80's neither you nor we had any real market share.
Folks laughed and laughed at the Japanese cars "rice burners"...but Toyota is the #1 in sales, quality and customer satisfaction now...and Mercedes just suffered another round of recalls, never mind your country's automotive branch and all the workers losing their jobs.
Now the Chinese already have better quality than the US produces, nearly as good as ours - but at lower prices.
Maybe it is time to stop insisting that "we are the biggest, the best, the greatest, etc." in both cultures. Maybe it is time to figure out what makes the others better and see if we can't do even better ourselves.
Like I said, sorry - but I think about these things alot.
dudleyfuddpucke
New member
I would have to nominate the BS (Builder's Spec) Maytag installed in our model home that we purchased new two years ago. It too has just the spray cone for second rack, and rarely cleans much of anything. I have to run Heavy Duty cycles if I want any chance it will at least clean the cups, but forget about dried-on foods.
Interestingly, the BEST dishwasher I ever had was the Bosch I spec'd in my previous house, which I built new. It did have very long cycles, and it was pretty hard on plastics due to the fact it had an internal heater and got the water REALLY hot, but it was whisper quiet and it cleaned, and cleaned really well.
Makes me think the Bosch that Pulsator has is having some kind of problem.
Interestingly, the BEST dishwasher I ever had was the Bosch I spec'd in my previous house, which I built new. It did have very long cycles, and it was pretty hard on plastics due to the fact it had an internal heater and got the water REALLY hot, but it was whisper quiet and it cleaned, and cleaned really well.
Makes me think the Bosch that Pulsator has is having some kind of problem.
Me too,
I suspect it has been damaged in shipping. B/S/H products are expected to have an overall failure rate of maximal 1per1000 and a failure which is serious enough for a service call of maximal 1per10000.
Of course, Bosch is not the top of the line brand in Europe, so these tolerances have to be seen as just average quality.
I suspect it has been damaged in shipping. B/S/H products are expected to have an overall failure rate of maximal 1per1000 and a failure which is serious enough for a service call of maximal 1per10000.
Of course, Bosch is not the top of the line brand in Europe, so these tolerances have to be seen as just average quality.
andrewinorlando
Well-known member
- Joined
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- 1,392
I don't think anyone in particular does it "best", per se, they just do it differently, many times based on years and years of traditions. And there is nothing wrong with that. Trying to introduce those types of changes into different cultures is difficult at best. Let's face it, people don't like change, and don't adapt easily. But in the end, you have to look at the results....that's where the rubber meets the road. Either you get the results you desire and/or expect, or you don't. To the average consumer, everything else is immaterial to the end result. Now we're not your average consumers on the appliance end...we know too much. But still, I don't care how it does it, all I know is that it does it and it's not me standing over the sink having to do it myself! To me, that's the worst of all the household jobs (maybe next to cleaning the windows).
Honestly, no one makes what they used to make as well as they used to make it today. Not even Miele. It's truly a shame, but it is what it is. If consumers don't demand changes, changes will never happen. And they need to do that with their wallets.
Honestly, no one makes what they used to make as well as they used to make it today. Not even Miele. It's truly a shame, but it is what it is. If consumers don't demand changes, changes will never happen. And they need to do that with their wallets.
Agreed!
But, and this is what I keep (shrilly and loudly and obnoxiously) saying:
The Chinese are improving their "perceived" quality enormously and the consumers are "voting" - with their pocket books.
And that's enough 'bout that.
So how is the problem child coming? Any news from the Bosch front?
But, and this is what I keep (shrilly and loudly and obnoxiously) saying:
The Chinese are improving their "perceived" quality enormously and the consumers are "voting" - with their pocket books.
And that's enough 'bout that.
So how is the problem child coming? Any news from the Bosch front?
dudleyfuddpucke
New member
I don't think anyone in particular does it better, per s
Sorry, I don't think I could disagree more. It's possible other people put other priorities first, and the Bosch did have its downsides. It took a long time, and because it didn't have a drying cycle the dishes still were wet at the end of the run. And as stated, because it got the water so hot I did notice it destroyed some of my cheaper plastic implements, and clouded others.
I read a lot of complaints about those items on opinions sites, but neither bothered me. Who cares if the dishes need to air dry a little, as long as it performed flawlessly in its primary mission...cleaning (which it did).
Sorry, I don't think I could disagree more. It's possible other people put other priorities first, and the Bosch did have its downsides. It took a long time, and because it didn't have a drying cycle the dishes still were wet at the end of the run. And as stated, because it got the water so hot I did notice it destroyed some of my cheaper plastic implements, and clouded others.
I read a lot of complaints about those items on opinions sites, but neither bothered me. Who cares if the dishes need to air dry a little, as long as it performed flawlessly in its primary mission...cleaning (which it did).
spankomatic
Well-known member
My worst dishwashers
GE,Magic Chef,Hot Point have been the worst for me. They are the cheapest. They all have wash "towers" that pop up in the middle to get the top rack clean. They all lack good filtration. I always thought it was a pain to load the lower rack and have to work around the middle for the "tower".
GE,Magic Chef,Hot Point have been the worst for me. They are the cheapest. They all have wash "towers" that pop up in the middle to get the top rack clean. They all lack good filtration. I always thought it was a pain to load the lower rack and have to work around the middle for the "tower".
spankomatic
Well-known member
My favorite dishwasher
Kitchenaid Superba 1978-1995. These were the best of the Kitchenaids. I liked the rack design. Never pre rinsed. The dishes always came out clean,dry,no spots. Trouble free.... I did have a 2003 Kenmore portable dishwasher that worked just as well as the Kitchenaids. Very similar machines.
Kitchenaid Superba 1978-1995. These were the best of the Kitchenaids. I liked the rack design. Never pre rinsed. The dishes always came out clean,dry,no spots. Trouble free.... I did have a 2003 Kenmore portable dishwasher that worked just as well as the Kitchenaids. Very similar machines.
rinso
Well-known member
GE Profile even MORE problems;
Wouldn't you know, the one appliance I have never "played" with, had its control panel die last week. Of course, it is three weeks out of warranty.
The Man-to-fix, came out and did announce that there was an extended warranty on the control panel, and that it would be about a week to get a replacement.
This follows the replacement of a defective fill valve and a stuck check valve in the drain.
One thing the old ball-and-chain and I have found out by doing the dishes by hand for a week: The glasses and stainless come out sparkling and spot free. But, is it worth the work? We thinks not!
Wouldn't you know, the one appliance I have never "played" with, had its control panel die last week. Of course, it is three weeks out of warranty.
The Man-to-fix, came out and did announce that there was an extended warranty on the control panel, and that it would be about a week to get a replacement.
This follows the replacement of a defective fill valve and a stuck check valve in the drain.
One thing the old ball-and-chain and I have found out by doing the dishes by hand for a week: The glasses and stainless come out sparkling and spot free. But, is it worth the work? We thinks not!
