Central Air Conditioner

[twintubdexter]

This may not belong here or anywhere else for that matter but I though I'd just share. One of my 2, 6 year-old American Standard central systems stopped functioning 6 days ago. The compressor won't run and the fan hums but can be started by hand. Fuses, breaker and thermostat are fine. I know a little about refrigeration from replacing refrigerator compressors, mostly GM/Frigidaire, when I was in high school and college. I had hoped that something simple was wrong like the run/start capacitor and not the compressor although that part is still under warranty.

I ordered a new GE exact replacement capacitor from Amazon on Saturday. They seem to have just about everything. Even though the part is on the way I decided to call the "reputable" company who installed both units and have them check it out. The friendly guy confirmed that the capacitor was indeed bad. The one I have on order cost $22.91. He informed me he could replace it for me...$285.00 for the capacitor plus labor and the service call! I paid him the $85 for the call and sent him on his way.

This is an example of a typical "Palm Springs Royal Rip Off" and what happens when a poor person like me lives surounded by people with money. It reminds me of the time the 92 year old lady who lived behind me paid $200 to have someone reprogram her thermostat. If this kind of post doesn't belong here please let me know.

1 screw, 3 wires, 4" long, it hardly looks like $22.91

 

[yogitunes]

I have had two blow out after a bad car accident knocked out our power....

simple to replace......

you DO know to carefully run a screwdriver across, touching all the terminals together before removing the wires......yes?.....if not, these things hold one hell of a charge....

throw the breakers on all parts to those units, inside and out....

safety first.......

 

[washman]

Don't feel bad

Dad, who resides in sunny FL, has had not one, not two, not three but four, yes four outside unit fan motors replaced since 2002.

This is on a Ruud heat pump/Ac unit and while the Copeland scroll compressor runs fine, the fan motors do not. The bearings simply give up the ghost. The death rattle is a clunk when the motor shuts off and a noticeable rumble on startup.

The reason? The bearings, if I can stretch that definition, are not sealed or greasable ball bearings, but plain jane sleeve bearings. Good enough in northern climes, but not durable for the use his unit gets. And we thus far have not been able to locate a motor that will fit that is made with ball bearings. Sleeve only.

 

[paulg]

How do they get away with that crap

You would think that eventually his poor business practices would takes its toll on his business.
However probably a lot of people don't know what you know and clearly become victims to his practices.
Gee, I wish I could relocate and start a business in PS. I don't subscribe to that BS business practice and could probably take his business away by being.... fair!

 

[DADoES]

 
Outrageous charges for capacitor replacement is common everywhere.  I learned that the hard way ... then helped a friend identify the same problem on his system and order a replacement online at a reasonable price.

 

[epixstar128]

you have to charge that to run a company.

Working. For hvac companys for eight years now to run a company they have to charge that to make profit. I run commercial service so i am a little more expensive. But with insurance labor and truck and tool cost a tech on the road cost nearly 100 bucks a hour

 

[whirlcool]

American Standard has a ten year parts warranty that covers the entire unit. I'd have it replaced under that coverage. They'll probably charge you a service call though. That's the reason we went with American Standard on our new system three years ago.

A neighbor had a capacitor fail recently. She called around and called around and the best price she could get was $265-$285. Just outrageous!

Speaking of A/C companies.... the nutty woman down the street from me was always worried about getting carbon monoxide poisoning from her heating system. So she had an air conditioning company come out three times a year to make sure this wouldn't happen to her. Every single time they came out they found a problem. You need a new thermostat($300), you need a new compressor($3000), you need a media filter system installed ($600), you need a new furnace($2500), etc. She asked me how often do I have my system inspected. I said once every two years, but I also have a few Co2 monitors in my house too. She than said "I wonder why my systems need so much attention?" I told her it could be due to the "servicing" she is having them perform. Well this year for the second time in three years they told her she needs another new furnace because the Trane model she has is "cheaply made". But she still worries that her a/c system will put carbon monoxide in her house, especially at night. Ha!

 

[supersuds]

I got that too. My Trane central AC/gas furnace was installed in 1989. I signed up for a package of three "tune-ups" and every time they came out it was "Do you know how OLD this is?" and a sales pitch. They never actually found anything wrong, though.

The last "tune-up" was spring 2013. As far as I could see, it consisted of washing the grime off the outdoor AC unit. That was the end of that.

 

[paulg]

Charges to run a company

I understand one has to bring in some money to run a company. However, charging $285 for a part that costs about $23 is not acceptable.
Labor charges and travel charges are understood. But paying over twelve times the cost of that part of that rank should NOT be the norm.
We used a sliding scale at our shop years ago. The smallest parts had a minimum charge of about four dollars. More expensive parts may have a 50% to 100% markup, so the $23 capacitor may cost the customer $50. A picture-tube costing us $175 may cost the customer $225.
I'm not a believer in rationalizing very-high part costs to cover operations. The company should cover the majority of business operations with labor and trip charges.

 

[kenmore70]

Replacing Capacitor on Central A/C Unit

Yogitunes,

I plan to re-place the capacitor on my Central A/C within the next few weeks. It's about 12 years old and I heard that it's best to replace them every 5 years or so, since they typically only last that long. I just want to be pro-active and change it rather than wait until that 100 degree day when it fails. I know that you have to discharge it first before removing the wires. I never did it before and know what needs to be done, but how would I know that I have discharged it correctly? Is there a way to test it? Does anybody know? I think I'll replace the contactor too since that's another cheap part ($25) that's prone to failing, but that's less risky. Back in 2002 I had the capacitor changed and it cost me over $300.

 

[yogitunes]

well, when the first service guy was here, he showed me how to discharge it, but I already knew that part, but again, once the wires were removed, he did the screwdriver test again, and no arc or sparks showed up, that told him it was discharged.....he mentioned he would not touch one unless he checked it first to make sure it was dead...then he would remove it, and put the new one in place....

200.00 charge......I quickly learn how to do this stuff on my own....

same goes for recharging the softwater and PH tanks....the resin and calcite are inexpensive to do it yourself, and save a bundle!

when ever we had a service guy come out for anything, I watched closely as to what he did, for one, to make sure he was doing what he charged for, and two, to hopefully be able to do it myself from then on...

 

[iheartmaytag]

Last summer when the temps were in the 100's for the 7,000th day in a row (ok exaggerated) a co-worker had a capacitor go out on her A/C. Saturday service call, double overtime, parts/labor $575.

 

[twintubdexter]

Thanks for all the very interesting experiences

I suppose my main concern is thinking about the many people that, for one reason or another, would pay these ultra-inflated prices when they really can't afford it. I'm sure it happens with everything...meds, insurance etc. You know of course the price I paid for that blasted capacitor is not what the service company pays, they don't buy at retail.

When I was a teenager working in the service department at the appliance store they did a huge repair business, both in and out of warranty. They had 5 service vehicles and 3 or 4 inside shop guys. Repairs like compressor changes were always done in the shop as well as many laundry repairs. The company which is still in business today (no in-house service dept) never gouged customers on repairs. They marked up parts, including the ones sold over the counter, fairly. Labor charges were reasonable too, including pickup and repair fees. Customers that had their refrigerators brought in for repair were given a loaner to use. Since the store was primairly a Frigidaire retailer, the factory rep would occassionaly check the books to make sure customers were not being taken advantage of. I guess this type of service operation is pretty much a thing of the past, especially with today's army of "factory service" companies.

As far as my air conditioner, I always hate to pay someone to do something I can do myself, but as I get older I pay more and do less. I'm grateful for all the information you can get on the Internet including all the knowledge members share here. Grateful too for being able to easily purchase online just about anything you need. See, it's easy to feel good about being cheap!

 

[paulg]

Expert time costs $$

I don't mind spending big bucks on labor for an expert, nor double-time on weekends and trip charges. I actually am HAPPY when I spend big bucks and the system is repaired fast! I tend to find that this shows I have an expert at work.
However, it's that gouging on the parts that really gets my goat.
Years ago, the television media did "stings" on TV repair shops. They'd pop a fuse in the TV and check to see what the repair bill was. We always came out OK.
However, if our repair bill was $39 for labor and $60 additional parts charge for the fuse itself, we would have been plastered all over the media as cheats regardless of the rationale for parts pricing beyond "reasonable and customary."

 

[iheartmaytag]

I do not deny a person a living.

They need to charge enough to do so, however, as I posted above, $575 for a capacitor replacement is excessive, and we all know the gouging was because it was hot and "what are you going to do?"

 

[twintubdexter]

Happy Camper...

The capacitor arrived today, slapped it in the unit and it's humming like a top. I'm all set for the weekend's predicted 112/115 degree heat...blah!

 

[travis]

What you do to avoid this is learn to repair the appliance yourself.

 

Last summer, I was nursing along my old a/c.  I needed a contactor.  It was Sunday with a Monday holiday.  I called an HVAC friend to get one.  If not, I would have called Grainger.

 

I think most of us would be surprised what it costs to operate a business.  Everyone wants a good wage, health insurance.  With the price of gas being what it is, you can't drive around town and make very small service calls.

 

Five years ago, I needed an a/c unit charged for a rental unit.  The service call was $70, the R22 was $60/lb for 3 lbs.  Do you think R22 is $60/lb?  Hell no!  The next time I needed a charge, I got out my gauges.

 

I don't want to fix everything myself, but with all this vintage stuff that I have, you have to learn it yourself.  If you can learn how to fix the old stuff, then apply that knowledge to the new stuff.

 

[whirlcool]

I think that some companies depend on the fact that the end customer is not knowledgeable about whatever it is they repair to charge outrageous prices.

When the agitator dogs went out on my WP TL machine several places quoter $300-$350 to repair the unit and others just told me to "just throw it away and go out an buy a new washer". I fixed it myself in 20 minutes for $25.00. The cost of an agitator overhaul kit.

Companies that overcharge also will tell you things like "All of our techs have been factory trained at the factory and nobody else in town has that level of expertise."

"You need to fix this right now or it will be very expensive to fix later."

amongst the other BS excuses I've heard. Someone in the A/C business told me that dishonest businesses sometimes give older customers "the Silver Platter Service". This means that they gouge them for all they can get because old people depend on others to get things done and don't know a damned thing about HVAC.

 

[DADoES]

 
<blockquote>"You need to fix this right now or it will be very expensive to fix later."</blockquote> Some situations do fall into this category.

 

[whirlcool]

Let me rephrase that:

You need to fix this right now </u/> or it will be more expensive later...

If that's the situation the tech usually tells the person not to use the item if it is that bad. Remember when someone tells you that you need to make a decision <u>right this moment, you should be careful.

And as we have seen in countless investigative reports on television it's the few bad apples that make the situation hard on the honest folks in the repair industry.

 

[dj-gabriele]

The prices you quoted make me shiver!
If something like that happened over here people would simply call our "Guardia di Finanza" (the law enforcement agency of the Minister of Economy and Finance) and have people like that "destroyed" because of skyrocketing prices and taking advantage of a difficult situation for the customer.
Inflating the price 12 times, UNBELIAVABLE! :O

 

[tolivac]

HVAC stuff-When I worked as an engineer at radio stations--many times you would be asked by the station owner -manager--"could you look at the AC system?" Then he would say---"You are the engineer---FIX IT!"Yes for things like condesor fan motors,air handler belts,lubing,filter repalcements-I could do those.But for compressor work called in a real HVAC man.Could recognize when the compressor system needed service.The cap shown would be seen on compressors-similar ones on the fan motors.Yes,these should be handled carefully-some of these caps have a resistor connected across the terminals as a bleeder for safety.Again discharging it is still good practice for safety.The resistor could open--.On the fan motors-condensor fans on the outside condensor-compressor unit-sort of like what you may have at home.On the commercail radio station units-the compressor is usually three phase.The fans are single phase.They can be 208-240V or even 277V.When I replaced the motor-a cap usually came packed with it-replaced the old one,too.And an IMPORTANT thing-there is a plastic cone or dome shaped part with the motor-its the slinger-MAKE SURE you install it on the motor under the fan.If you don't rain or snow will get into the motor bearings.Of course if the motor is "upside" down in the unit-you don't need the slinger.My Lenox unit at home has such a motor.Single phase compressors have two caps or two sets of caps-the start cap(s)large electolytic type and the run caps-oil paper -film type.The fan motor caps were of the oil fim type,too.Usually they last a long time.Three phase compressors don't have start-run caps-but a contactor-make sure it works and the contacts not burnt.

 

[48bencix]

Fixed my own

Good for you! I had the same type of capacitor fail 3 different times. Luckily I was able to diagnose it the first time, and after that, it is the first thing I check. My system is 23 years old. I installed it myself, from furnace with cooling coil to the condenser and all the duct work. I had a contractor connect the coolant lines and make sure the charge is correct.

The last two times I got the capacitor at Granger, for about $25.00.

I diagnosed a friend's unit that had a bad exhauster fan in the furnace section. It would take too long to order on the internet, so he had a contractor fix it. The part was worth about $135.00, and the repair was over $600. Even though I told him what was wrong. We chatted. He said he used to work for a company where if the client was elderly, they would tell them that they needed a new system for $12,000.

It really helps if you look around and try to eliminate a few things and do the diagnosis. Otherwise you are at the mercy of a very hungry business.

I also replaced the furnace ignitor 3 times and the contactor. Each time I probably saved about $200.00, or possibly $12,000.00!!

 

[whirlcool]

After reading this thread I talked to our neighbor across the street who owns his own HVAC company. I asked what he charged for a start cap for and a/c unit. His response? $300.00. I asked him why so much as the caps are available for a lot less than that. His response?

"The ones we buy are of a higher quality than most people can get their hands on".

I always thought that a cap was a cap was a cap? As long as the specs are the same.

 

[dustin92]

It's just sad- repair companies taking advantage of customers, and truthfully the manufacturer of the products are as well, being that they weren't made to last. In our old house, we had a central air unit installed when the house was built in 2000, and the unit itself never needed any service in the 13 years we lived there, aside from hosing off the outside unit's coils. We ran it most of every summer, and it ran for 12+ hours a day- it was far undersized for the house. It was just a builder grade unit too. Here we have a 20+ year old Amana furnace and A/C unit, and as far as I know, it hasn't had any repairs either. It is also fairly undersized, but once these old, thick plaster walls and ceilings cool off, they stay cool.

 

[washer111]

HVAC-Techs have "Better Quality"

Yeah right. All comes from the same darned factory from whatever country.

 

If you have to call the tech every 2-3 years for a capacitor, then they ARE NOT BY ANY CIRCUMSTANCE "better quality." PERIOD

 

I'd hate to see what a refrigerant charge costs...

 

[whirlcool]

They certainly have their stories straight, don't they?

These guys seem to have a answer to justify their costs no matter what the question may be.

Have you heard of "Silver Platter" service? That's where the a/c guy comes to your house to fix your unit. It would cost maybe $200 to fix, but if your dealing with an elderly customer then they should spend $10,000 on an entire new system instead.

BTW, it helps if you get really friendly with these oldsters before you hit them with the charge. Sit down, have coffee with them, tell them your life story, etc.
By the time you are done, you've made a fortune. Now that's Silver Platter service!

 

[arbilab]

My house in Austin (1999-2007) 'came with' a second-generation AC guy, making me a 'preferred customer' as in the guy gave me straight answers. Yes he still charged $77 basically just to show up. But if all I needed was gas (R-22) he didn't stack labor on top of that, just the cost of gas which DuPont connived to make astronomical. I don't remember what he charged to put a new fan capacitor on the inner unit but I would had it been unreasonable.

Not saying he didn't make up his 'honest' calls like mine on other customers. Not saying he did either. Not EVERYbody in business is unethical, but not EVERYbody in business IS. I had an honest air guy and an honest car guy and that was pretty much all I needed.

Well there was that time my neighbor's tree blocked my sewer and I had to call a plumber from scratch. He rootered the line for $130. Sure, I could have bought the rooter and done it myself. But the rooter cost more than $130, besides getting up to my elbows in my own sewage and not knowing how to work a rooter. And he was honest in that he told me about copper sulfate (I'd never heard of it). It STRONGLY discourages (kills) invasive tree roots. IOW, he told me how to never need him again for the same problem.

In the perfect world I'd like to imagine, the honest guys win in the long run while the dishonest ones get discovered and need to find another line of work/exploit. Not sure it works that way. It did for most of my life, but those honest guys, like myself, are getting older and may not be around that much longer.

Might add, I was an electronics repairman (entertainment eqpt) for roughly a decade (collectively) and I was dead-nuts honest. I charged parts cost-plus-20% regardless the customer's ability to pay. I charged the shop hour rate BUT not if it meant charging 6 hours just because I had never seen that problem before. Almost all charges were one hour (the minimum), mostly because I HAD seen most problems before. The repairman's repairman. Had some high-profile clients (Flight Systems, commercial aircraft simulators; University of Texas football) who could pay ANYthing. Charged them what the job was worth, just like with the schmow off the street.

As above, there ARE honest repairmen but I have to admit the trend is to the contrary.

 

[washer111]

"Silver Platter Service"

Must wonder if all the elderly folk experience this at car dealerships, or "Stealerships" as we've come to know. Perhaps that "relationship" one builds is the key... 

 

Still, cannot wonder how any could trust the factory dealer to do service these days. They charge huge prices, compared to a typical mechanic that can perform the same work, and even bodge people's car for that sum. Worst part is, the likes of Toyota, GM, Ford etc don't release their diagnostic equipment for today's car, so you are SERIOUSLY locked into their "upgrade plan" for vehicles as cars get old and die. 

 

[whirlcool]

I think it's called "getting their confidence" that's why con men are called confidence artists!

I am sure it goes on anywhere the elderly have purchases to make where the pricing structure is not clearly defined. And it doesn't help that a lot of the elderly are confused by all the technical jargon they hear either. Most states here in the U.S. have laws against this type of thing, but these cases are very difficult to prove.