Circuit Breakers or Fuse panel?

[twintubdexter]

Has anyone ever heard anything about Ronald Reagan's old house in Pacific Palisades? I understand it was remodeled by General Electric when Reagan was the host of the old General Electric Theatre and served as their national spokesman. GE fitted the house with every electrical high-tech thing they could think of making it a sort of a "Super Medallion Home." The Reagans gave tours of the home on TV promoting the "Live Better Electrically" campaign. I remember reading that the house had well over 100 circuit breakers.

what...just 2 ovens? (the maid probably only cooked TV Dinners anyway)

 

[lordkenmore]

"I suspect the Macbook Pro being metal means the user will act as a ground in the need ever arises."

I am guessing that this is not likely. The power going into a laptop probably is DC, and fully isolated from the AC line.

 

[earthling177]

Grounding/Earthing Systems

It seems that just like plugs and electrical systems vary from country to country and location to location (and each resident will insist the system in their location is the best/safest etc), grounding/earthing systems also suffer from the same fate/feature.

Please read the article in the link for all the details. Also, if you want to know what MEN and MEN-Link are and their features. ;-)

Each and every system has good and bad features, good and bad safety in special circumstances etc. No system has only good features and no bad situations (yet).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

 

[hydralique]

Well, of course I had to look at the Wikipedia link to see what more I could learn about MEN! While there is a lot of information in the article I have to question the author's powers of observation when he states that "Until the mid 1990s, US 110V power outlets generally lacked protective earth terminals." Plenty of '50s homes were built without grounded outlets, but most '60s homes do have grounded outlets and I can't think of any new homes built in the last forty years that do not. Probably someone else here will know when the NEC and CEC started requiring grounded outlets but I'm sure it was decades before the mid '90s.

 

[MaytagA710]

Perhaps the US  and Canadian electrical codes are widely different. Canada is super heavily regulated with respect to a lot of things. I know there is a copy of the CSA 22.1 at work, and when I return Monday I will try to take a look. There are only three wires that lead to my house from the pole. Two lines of 120V, and one neutral. Contrary to popular belief, electricity on your home side is only single phase. 

 

Here is a picture of an older panel at a friends house. As you can see there is a neutral bus bar, which travels back to the main isolator/fuse from the poll, this goes back outside. There is another added on panel on the right side of this photo you dont see. 

 

 

 

[MaytagA710]

Here is a picture of the panel in my house. This is a new house, and as you can see it has arc-flash protectant breakers. These arc-flash breakers are for the bedrooms only. 

 

This panel is divided into two sections, top and bottom (or right and left depending on its orientation). You can see the neutral bus bar, which is the closest bus bar to the breakers. This leads back to the main entry point, and ties in with the top neutral bus bar, and goes back out to the poll.

 

The bottom bus bar is the grounding bus (its hiding behind the red and black leads which feed the heat pump). This bar is for the bottom side of the panel, and it ties in with the top part of the panel at one point. It then leaves the panel (after the bottom and top are tied) and goes to...

 

 

 

[MaytagA710]

...The water main. You can see the huge ground lead from the panel makes its way to here. 

 

So at no point in either panel or either house are the ground and neutral tied together. 

 

 

 

[lordkenmore]

most '60s homes do have grounded outlets

I think I said this before, but here it goes again: I have seen a single ungrounded outlet in any electrical system installed in recent decades. My current residence was built in 1965, and it has grounded outlets throughout. It was pretty cheap construction new, and any corners that could be cut probably were. I doubt it was ever rewired, based on the history I know.

The only place I have ever seen that might have had ungrounded outlets in newer wiring was the house I grew up in. Part of that house was remodeled, and the electrical system would have been redone at that point. It's been years since I saw that house, but I have a sense that it didn't have grounded outlets in the new part. But I have no idea when that wiring was actually done. Last remodel year was known to be in the late 60s, but whether the wiring was done at that time or earlier is anyone's guess.

Of course, this is all based on my limited observation. I do notice things like outlets. Also things like furnace technology, type of stove in the kitchen, and, oh, yes, brands of washing machines. (I bet I'm not alone in any of this here at AW.org!)

And, of course, this is based on Washington: codes vary. They even change here. I know of at least one person who built their own house, and got stung by code changes between the time they started wiring, and the time they were done and ready for an inspection.

 

[washer111]

Hmmm....

@MaytagA710

What on earth are you doing with such a LARGE earth cable? Our earthing cables in this country are only slightly larger than the mains wire (at least in this 1960's house, with concreted electrical Conduits that are still original to the house).
In fact, your earthing cable is the same size as the INDIVIDUAL Phase A, B, C and Neutral cables that ran from the thing holding the power line to our house and into the meter box (unlike our old house, the interior circuits etc are all kept inside on a sub board to the mains).

What I will say is this: Before we got underground power, there was a HUGE (and I mean HUGE) 415v, 400a "Esco-Link" fuse in our meter box. I believe they replaced the fuse and kept the Esco, although I'd probably have to take a peep someday and disturb the local wildlife living in that box (lol).

 

[cadman]

I was fortunate to save the design docs and receipts of a local MCM style home that was demolished earlier this year to make way for a parking lot. In the files, are several contractor estimates to provide complete electrical service for the home. If I remember right, one was for non grounded outlets, another provided the option as a cost-up. This would have been circa '55. -Cory

 

[MaytagA710]

That is a HUGE ground lead is right! Thats Canada though for you, regulation nation!

 

That would be neet to see Cory. It would be neet to see how homes were suposed to be constructed and what was available as options, like intercoms and things!

 

Im surprised no one has made comments on the aluminum wiring in that first photo I posted haha

 

[wayupnorth]

Aluminum wiring was installed to save costs in many old 50's to early 70's mobile homes in the US and I would bet half or better suffered major fires over the years because of it. From what a licenced electrictian told me that did my outside work. There is not many older mobile homes left around this area at all.

 

[mattl]

Aluminum wire is fine and is used most of the time around here for the entrance cables.  There is no problem as long as the connections is rated for CU/AL.  A dab of dielectric grease helps too.  The connection from my meter to my panel is #0000 aluminum I'm also using AL for one of my range's wiring.  No issues.

 

[sudsmaster]

Anybody remember reports of electrical fires started in the past when people used copper pennies behind a glass screw in fuse to get the blown circuit going again?

The rental house I lived in from '85 to '97 had only fuses. I think the whole power into the house was only 60 amp. I couldn't run the microwave (only 800 watt), the toaster, and the coffee maker at the same time. I never resorted to pennies, though.

My current home is all circuit breakers, albeit the infamous Federal Pacific variety. However they've been inspected and there is no sign of the arcing that plagued later FP Stab-lok breakers. I'm careful however not to overload the wiring here, especially the stuff connected via knob and tube (about 1/2 the home). I know the breakers for the kitchen work because I've tripped the one on the counter a few times. And those circuits are newer, armored grounded cable.

Eventually I'll replace the FP panel with a larger Square D one. When I get a round toit. Along with replacing the knob and tube with oversized three wire grounded Romex.

I don't see a problem with running ground wires from the currently ungrounded outlets to the rigid conduit that also serves as the ground path for the kitchen, family room, and laundry closet. My only question is whether I need to worry about extra insulation on these ground wires, but I gather that simple green vinyl coated ground wire would be sufficient. After all, the rigid conduit isn't insulated anyway.

 

[dustin92]

Well so far so good; we haven't blown any more fuses, and for the record we have some spare fuses, we would never put pennies behind them, change stays in the change jar. Just moderation on running everything, can't run the coffee maker or toaster while the dishwasher is running, can't run the microwave while the washer, , dryer or window a/c is running, can't run anything in the living room or back bedroom while the washer and dryer are both running. It is a little tiring running through the house turning things on and off but I'm sure we will get used to it. The fuse panel will be replaced with a breaker box, and outlets will be checked and replaced if needed, but I think *most* of the wires are ok. Some of the wires coming out of the fuse panel (including the main coming in) are cloth wrapped and look scary. Cloth wrapped cords are great on vintage appliances, but not running through the walls! They will be replaced.

 

[lordkenmore]

Pennies to "replace" fuses

I have been known to comment about this when unloading pennies while paying at the grocery store. Usually something like: "I don't have a fuse box, so I might get rid of my pennies." Some cashiers get the reference. Many give me a blank "what did you say?" look. And one told me I was a few decades out of date.

 

[lordkenmore]

I also am stuck with Federal Pacific service panel. It has been a worry, but I am very careful with how much I put onto a circuit. With that care, I should be OK and survive without burning the place down. I hope.

I have been told that the place I am now has aluminum wiring. But the person who once did property maintenance here basically said he didn't feel it is a problem. The big problem, he said, is with connections going bad. If a connection starts acting up, get it fixed fast, and there shouldn't be a fire. Unless, of course, the FP panel decides to go....

 

[washer111]

Popping Breakers

Before we replaced the akey-breaky Westinghouse Siloutte Electric Range at this house (early 1980's with Digital Timer + oven on/off function and regular timer) which sometimes smelt like it was going to catch fire the oven on, or for me blew a ceramic electric element ring trying to boil eggs one mothers day, we used to use a Sunbeam Non-stick electric frying pan.

Well, breakfast was certainly interesting on some occasions... If the frying pan happened to cycle on whilst the toaster and kettle were running SNAP went the breaker, off goes the fridge and power to some of the kitchen and 2 bedrooms (and possibly a bathroom). Usually followed by some annoyed person emerging from their room questioning the "blackout." Same happened with Panasonic "inverter" (now dead) Microwave + Toaster/Kettle (could be two) or the frying pan. SNAP! from the breaker and disgruntled person emerges from bedroom...

You wouldn't want to even attempt to rewire this house. The wires are cemented into their metal conduits (which frequently make sharp 90º bends) and buried within the plastered wall. Thanks to the designed for that. To top it off, new electrical wires won't' even fit into the old conduits. So when the wiring goes (which it will soon, we're getting the mysterious "Green Ooze" thru some points and switches), we're gonna have to cut into walls, have unsightly wiring running through the interior or put in those "office style" skirting borads which usually contain the Ethernet, Telephone and electric cabling. We'll also get the breaker panel re-done, I'd assume, as it is presently a "Merrin-Gerrin" or whatever you call it...

 

[dustin92]

I think I jinxed myself... I started a load of sheets in the washer then went outside to sit on the porch. About 5 minutes later (about the time it would take to fill the washer) I thought "oh crap, the bedroom a/c is on! Went inside and the a/c and washer were off... of course blew a fuse. So I turned off the a/c and stopped the washer, but for some reason opened the lid. I had put in a full load of sheets, but had accidently left the water level at "mini"(we had a frigidaire gallery front loader at our other house, no water level setting)(for whom it may concern, the washer and dryer here are Maytag Performa's). The extra draw from the overloaded washer and the a/c running must have immediately blown the fuse, because I had set it for 14 minutes of wash time and it was still at 14. Went out and replaced the fuse (lucky we keep spares around) and everything was fine (after I reset the water level on the washer and turned off the a/c)

 

[58limited]

I haven't had time to read all of the responses, so I'm responding to the original post. I had similar problems in college. I rented an old run-down farmhouse that had a whopping four fuses (not counting the 230V breakers for the stove and water heater), but I was able to work around that and rarely blew one. There was a small fuse box inside that had two push breakers, when one blew you just pushed it to reset. The other two were modern breakers located in a box outside.

 

My current house, built in 1936, has the old screw-in fuse panel as well as an extensive breaker box in the garage, obviously an upgrade - a 70 amp breaker powers the original box and the rest of the breakers power anything that was added at a later date. I have dropped several outlets and phone lines down the walls myself, adding a few more breakers. The main breaker outside is 200 amp. The original wiring should be replaced, it is cloth and falls apart if messed with too much, but it is in conduit so as long as I don't have to disturb it I plan to leave it alone for now. When I decide to change the light fixture in the guest room, I'll have to replace the wires in that room - I looked in the ceiling box and it will be a mess to disturb. The ceiling boxes are the junction boxes for each room, if I have to rewire one I'll have to rewire the entire room. I've already had to rewire the breakfast area. I'll rewire the house some day, just not in the near future.