liberatordeluxe
Well-known member
Just curious but do we in the UK have any detergents that are clean rinsing?
Clean Rinsing Detergents
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superelectronic
Well-known member
Perhaps you should define what you interpret as clean rinsing? I realise it's an issue very close to your heart, but since detergents haven't moved on much from all the discussion you've initiated previously, and taking into account everyone's input on it, we might be at a loss as to how to answer your question any further.
What exactly is the gold standard you're aiming for in rinsing?
What have you been trying yourself and what are your findings?
Apologies if that sounds harsh but, y'know, maybe we need to delve a little deeper here...
What exactly is the gold standard you're aiming for in rinsing?
What have you been trying yourself and what are your findings?
Apologies if that sounds harsh but, y'know, maybe we need to delve a little deeper here...
liberatordeluxe
Well-known member
My definition of clean rinsing is the rinse water is crystal clear with no bubbles on the 3rd or final rinse. Clean rinsing is defined as leaving no residue. If you google 'Clean Rinsing' detergents you will find a few come up such as 'Charlies Soap' and 'Rockin Green'.
I am just curious to know why there is always foam in the rinse cycles if the detergent is being rinsed but nobody has answered that yet. My thoughts are if foam is still being seen then there must be residual detergent in the drum.
Maybe detergents today are not meant to be completely rinsed off the fabric and therefore it would be better to use a soap based product.
Things like underwear and bed sheets are fine but when i wash at 40 using liquid i sometimes find the t shirts and trousers dry like cardboard despite using only 30ml of Ariel Excel Gel.
I have come to the conclusion its the product and not a fault with my machine but cannot find a good detergent yet that is suitable for coloured clothing that needs the bare minimum of rinsing. Thank goodness i am not on a water meter.
I am just curious to know why there is always foam in the rinse cycles if the detergent is being rinsed but nobody has answered that yet. My thoughts are if foam is still being seen then there must be residual detergent in the drum.
Maybe detergents today are not meant to be completely rinsed off the fabric and therefore it would be better to use a soap based product.
Things like underwear and bed sheets are fine but when i wash at 40 using liquid i sometimes find the t shirts and trousers dry like cardboard despite using only 30ml of Ariel Excel Gel.
I have come to the conclusion its the product and not a fault with my machine but cannot find a good detergent yet that is suitable for coloured clothing that needs the bare minimum of rinsing. Thank goodness i am not on a water meter.
superelectronic
Well-known member
You're right...
I don't think anyone ever has come up with the definitive answer as to why today's detergents cause foaming into the rinse. No doubt there is some residue that isn't being rinsed away, but then again fibres are absorbent and difficult to rinse totally clear of detergent. Indeed, I think the accepted wisdom is that rinsing is simply a process of dilution rather than total removal - fabrics just have to the wash water diluted to such an extent that any residue poses no problem.
I recall reading once that nonionic surfactants used in detergents are extremely difficult to rinse away but that shouldn't necessarily pose a problem.
Soap, as has been discussed many a time on here, is actually very difficult to rinse from fabrics. Your rinse water might look crystal clear but that's not to say there wouldn't be significant residue in the finished laundry.
As to stiff clothes, is it only when you use the gel that it's a problem? Would a powder product for colours work better? You might think a liquid would leave clothes softer but sometimes it isn't the case: I remember years ago that Ariel Futur powder for colours left clothes softer than the Ariel liquid for colours, for example.
Seems you need to keep buying small packages of the various products til you find one you can put up with. The own-brand products - often by McBride - seem to be less susdy on the whole if that's any help. But yearning for crytal clear, bubble-free rinse water might - for the moment anyway - be a rather fruitless experience!
I don't think anyone ever has come up with the definitive answer as to why today's detergents cause foaming into the rinse. No doubt there is some residue that isn't being rinsed away, but then again fibres are absorbent and difficult to rinse totally clear of detergent. Indeed, I think the accepted wisdom is that rinsing is simply a process of dilution rather than total removal - fabrics just have to the wash water diluted to such an extent that any residue poses no problem.
I recall reading once that nonionic surfactants used in detergents are extremely difficult to rinse away but that shouldn't necessarily pose a problem.
Soap, as has been discussed many a time on here, is actually very difficult to rinse from fabrics. Your rinse water might look crystal clear but that's not to say there wouldn't be significant residue in the finished laundry.
As to stiff clothes, is it only when you use the gel that it's a problem? Would a powder product for colours work better? You might think a liquid would leave clothes softer but sometimes it isn't the case: I remember years ago that Ariel Futur powder for colours left clothes softer than the Ariel liquid for colours, for example.
Seems you need to keep buying small packages of the various products til you find one you can put up with. The own-brand products - often by McBride - seem to be less susdy on the whole if that's any help. But yearning for crytal clear, bubble-free rinse water might - for the moment anyway - be a rather fruitless experience!
liberatordeluxe
Well-known member
@ SuperElectronic I used to use the Persil colour powder but they have added brighteners to that now so not suitable so only leaves me with Ariel colour powder. What do you personally use? I have the same water hardness as yourself being not far from London. Do you use the recommended amounts or less?
I used to use Simply liquid and that was fine but they don't make it no more. Ill find a solution no doubt
I used to use Simply liquid and that was fine but they don't make it no more. Ill find a solution no doubt
whirlcool
Well-known member
Try lowering the spin speed on your washer for towels and sheets. I find that works pretty good and the items come out softer.
I'm not familiar
I with UK detergents, but wonder if it has something to do with the rinse water temp??
I with UK detergents, but wonder if it has something to do with the rinse water temp??
Here Is My View
Today's detergents, especially liquids have increased their surfactant levels in order to pack more cleaning power to deal with modern wash temps of >100F.
The four main components of good laundry practice have not changed nor the fact if you lower one the others must be increased. So when doing laundry at warm or cold water you either must add more detergent or increase the concentration so smaller amounts will still provide results.
Sadly there is often a fine line between using the proper amount for each load versus too much which causes problems in rinsing.
Then there is the fact that certain surfactants and or liquid laundry detergents will never rinse totally "clean". Indeed P&G used to state as much on the website for one of their detergents. In response to a query from a consumer as to why the rinse water still had foam, P&G said it was normal.
We also must consider besides more concentrated detergents washing machines are using less water. So you've got super concentrated water and detergent doing the cleaning, then rinsing taking place often with much less water than in the past.
Today's detergents, especially liquids have increased their surfactant levels in order to pack more cleaning power to deal with modern wash temps of >100F.
The four main components of good laundry practice have not changed nor the fact if you lower one the others must be increased. So when doing laundry at warm or cold water you either must add more detergent or increase the concentration so smaller amounts will still provide results.
Sadly there is often a fine line between using the proper amount for each load versus too much which causes problems in rinsing.
Then there is the fact that certain surfactants and or liquid laundry detergents will never rinse totally "clean". Indeed P&G used to state as much on the website for one of their detergents. In response to a query from a consumer as to why the rinse water still had foam, P&G said it was normal.
We also must consider besides more concentrated detergents washing machines are using less water. So you've got super concentrated water and detergent doing the cleaning, then rinsing taking place often with much less water than in the past.
If you feel like paying the water bill----
There is no reason why a person could not reset the machine for an additional rinse and spin.
Lawrence/Maytagbear
There is no reason why a person could not reset the machine for an additional rinse and spin.
Lawrence/Maytagbear
hoover1100
Well-known member
Have you ever washed by hand?
If you have then you will know how difficult it is to remove the detergent from your hands afterwards.
My understanding is that the foaming and cloudiness still left in the final rinse is zeolite residue.
You could carry out hundreds of extra rinses and this wouldn't go away.
My general rule is that if the water in a successive rinse is no clearer or less foamy than the previous one, then the clothes are as well rinsed as they can be.
Clear rinse water will form droplets on the seal or glass, this means that the detergent is no longer present as detergent breaks down the membrane that water forms, preventing it from forming droplets.
Matt
If you have then you will know how difficult it is to remove the detergent from your hands afterwards.
My understanding is that the foaming and cloudiness still left in the final rinse is zeolite residue.
You could carry out hundreds of extra rinses and this wouldn't go away.
My general rule is that if the water in a successive rinse is no clearer or less foamy than the previous one, then the clothes are as well rinsed as they can be.
Clear rinse water will form droplets on the seal or glass, this means that the detergent is no longer present as detergent breaks down the membrane that water forms, preventing it from forming droplets.
Matt
First of all washing machines` rinsing efficiancy is usually determined by residual alkalinity, not froth. Of course if intermediate spins are affected by froth, rinsing efficiancy degrades, but:
Cotton is very absorbant and nearly impossible to rinse bubble free and cristal clear in a frontloader because even the smallest amounts of man made surfactants whip up froth. This does`t necessarily mean the clothes are not sufficiantly rinsed.
On the other hand synthetics are less absorbant and in particular polyester has a tendency to attract grease so no bubbles in the last rinse might even indicate not compleatly clean.
Soap as has been mentioned already is most difficult to rinse out even if the water looks perfectly clear.
As to stiff clothes, do you live in a hard water area? Constant underdosing of detergents leads to calcium build up on clothes which is unfortunately irreversible. If you want to cut back on detergent I would use a seperate water softener not for the washer`s sake but for the clothes`.
Have to say when I was young I was obsessed with rinsing as well. I only used half the recommended dose of detergent and have always reset the timer to some extra rinses because of the foam. Had problems with stiff clothes as well.
Today I use the recommended dose of detergent, hit the extra rinse- water plus button and let the machine do it`s thing. Honestly never had a skin reaction because of the foam and no more stiff clothes.
I would also like to share another observation with my fellow Sudsophobes here ;-)
If you use Listerine after brushing your teeth you are supposed to spit only, right ?
Sometimes I follow a clear water rinse and guess what, the surfactants foam up like crazy in the rinse with water, even more than when squishing the undilluted product around and I`m still alive.
Cotton is very absorbant and nearly impossible to rinse bubble free and cristal clear in a frontloader because even the smallest amounts of man made surfactants whip up froth. This does`t necessarily mean the clothes are not sufficiantly rinsed.
On the other hand synthetics are less absorbant and in particular polyester has a tendency to attract grease so no bubbles in the last rinse might even indicate not compleatly clean.
Soap as has been mentioned already is most difficult to rinse out even if the water looks perfectly clear.
As to stiff clothes, do you live in a hard water area? Constant underdosing of detergents leads to calcium build up on clothes which is unfortunately irreversible. If you want to cut back on detergent I would use a seperate water softener not for the washer`s sake but for the clothes`.
Have to say when I was young I was obsessed with rinsing as well. I only used half the recommended dose of detergent and have always reset the timer to some extra rinses because of the foam. Had problems with stiff clothes as well.
Today I use the recommended dose of detergent, hit the extra rinse- water plus button and let the machine do it`s thing. Honestly never had a skin reaction because of the foam and no more stiff clothes.
I would also like to share another observation with my fellow Sudsophobes here ;-)
If you use Listerine after brushing your teeth you are supposed to spit only, right ?
Sometimes I follow a clear water rinse and guess what, the surfactants foam up like crazy in the rinse with water, even more than when squishing the undilluted product around and I`m still alive.
Alkaline residue may determine whether laundry is rinsed "clean", but far as one is concerned if there is still visible froth and or "soap" draining out in the final rinse water, then the laundry isn't rinsed properly.
Find with P&G liquids (Tide) there is a fine line between proper dosing that gives clear rinses by the fourth (of five) in my Miele versus having to do five, six or even more to get all the "soap" out.
Have found some of the cleanest rinsing detergents to be the vintage products in my stash that used phosphates as builders. Gain, Fab, All, etc... all from the 1970's or so rinse quite cleanly. Vintage Tide "ultra" OTHO is a hot mess as it is today for clean rinsing.
Find with P&G liquids (Tide) there is a fine line between proper dosing that gives clear rinses by the fourth (of five) in my Miele versus having to do five, six or even more to get all the "soap" out.
Have found some of the cleanest rinsing detergents to be the vintage products in my stash that used phosphates as builders. Gain, Fab, All, etc... all from the 1970's or so rinse quite cleanly. Vintage Tide "ultra" OTHO is a hot mess as it is today for clean rinsing.
liberatordeluxe
Well-known member
Ariel
Here are some photo's taken today doing a towel wash on 40 degrees Celsius with Ariel Colour Excel gel with a dose of 37ml which is for hard water. As you can see the first rinse has the foam on top of other wise clear rinse water. I will upload a picture of the final rinse and a bowl of water with the residue that I have been talking about.
I think Laundress has hit the nail on the head that these liquids and liquid tabs are so concentrated that they are hard to rinse out and I think the maker's must recommend too much.
Here are some photo's taken today doing a towel wash on 40 degrees Celsius with Ariel Colour Excel gel with a dose of 37ml which is for hard water. As you can see the first rinse has the foam on top of other wise clear rinse water. I will upload a picture of the final rinse and a bowl of water with the residue that I have been talking about.
I think Laundress has hit the nail on the head that these liquids and liquid tabs are so concentrated that they are hard to rinse out and I think the maker's must recommend too much.
liberatordeluxe
Well-known member
Final Rinse Water
Final rinse water.
Final rinse water.
liberatordeluxe
Well-known member
Residue
This is the residue left over from a hand towel.
This is the residue left over from a hand towel.
liberatordeluxe
Well-known member
Running machine empty on a cleaning cycle after using 37ml of Excel gel. Prior to using the excel gel before the towel wash I did a maintenance wash with Ariel bio on 95C. Can you see the amount of suds left despite no clothes and only using the product once? Not good is it!
liberatordeluxe
Well-known member
@ Laundress is Tide like our Ariel?
I finally got the towels residue free after applying a cup of cider vinegar in the rinse and they are once again soft so I won't buy gels anymore. I have noticed that underwear is icky after being washed in gels too so i think these gels are best avoided.
I finally got the towels residue free after applying a cup of cider vinegar in the rinse and they are once again soft so I won't buy gels anymore. I have noticed that underwear is icky after being washed in gels too so i think these gels are best avoided.
superelectronic
Well-known member
Maybe I shouldn't admit it but your rinses look much like mine do (and have done for most of the past 15 years). Unfortunately I can't find a final rinse shot in my files.
I can't say I have much problem with clothes being stiff from what I'd term as detergent build-up, except perhaps with Ariel bio which left towels a bit on the harsh side (the tablets were better than the powder). Too much static drying is the main culprit for stiff laundry in my experience.
The slimy/sticky feel certainly used to be a problem with Ariel liquid of 10-12 years ago but not so the last time I used it; I've never used the Excel gel to find out what it's like, having been wary of the overpowering perfume element that might have been tweaked for the better of late.
I can't say I have much problem with clothes being stiff from what I'd term as detergent build-up, except perhaps with Ariel bio which left towels a bit on the harsh side (the tablets were better than the powder). Too much static drying is the main culprit for stiff laundry in my experience.
The slimy/sticky feel certainly used to be a problem with Ariel liquid of 10-12 years ago but not so the last time I used it; I've never used the Excel gel to find out what it's like, having been wary of the overpowering perfume element that might have been tweaked for the better of late.
nickuk
Well-known member
clean rinsing
Hello, my advice for the best clean rinsing detergent is LIDL BIO TABLETS.
Nick
Hello, my advice for the best clean rinsing detergent is LIDL BIO TABLETS.
Nick
