may63
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What bothers me about this article and the comments after it are the claims people make without documentation. Such is life on the internet. But thought it was worth a quick post on AW.org.
Cold Water Washing: The Debate Goes On
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I have to admit, I'm one of those people who thinks washing in cold water just doesn't cut for everyday laundry. I do have nicer "dress" clothes that I do wash in cold water, and living in florida, cold water is never really "cold".
However, I did read through all the comments that were posted and can't help but think that these people who wash everything in cold water, then complain about mold and meldew in their machines on other forums.
However, I did read through all the comments that were posted and can't help but think that these people who wash everything in cold water, then complain about mold and meldew in their machines on other forums.
The article quotes someone from LG as a final authority on whether cold water washes well, then goes on to say that LG has just introduced washers with a proprietary technology to insure cold water "penetrates clothing."
So if you need a proprietary technology (what is is, anyway?) then one would assume that cold water washes may be a problem for anybody who doesn't have this wonder washer.
So if you need a proprietary technology (what is is, anyway?) then one would assume that cold water washes may be a problem for anybody who doesn't have this wonder washer.
Oh, for heaven's sake
What a collection of numnuts, weirdos and losers.
"Cold water kills more germs than hot water..."
Yeah, right / if you nuke it with enough UV, add enough ozone or chlorine, sure.
Sheesh.
Water has to be warm enough for enzymes to eat through fats, oils, starches, sugars and proteins.
Warm enough for the oxygen bleach to be generated.
Warm enough for the ph to reach a level inhospitable to microbes.
At our current state of technology, that just is not happening at "cold" temperature no matter how thoroughly fibers are wet.
What a collection of numnuts, weirdos and losers.
"Cold water kills more germs than hot water..."
Yeah, right / if you nuke it with enough UV, add enough ozone or chlorine, sure.
Sheesh.
Water has to be warm enough for enzymes to eat through fats, oils, starches, sugars and proteins.
Warm enough for the oxygen bleach to be generated.
Warm enough for the ph to reach a level inhospitable to microbes.
At our current state of technology, that just is not happening at "cold" temperature no matter how thoroughly fibers are wet.
lordkenmore
Well-known member
I have mixed feelings about this. Years back, I was a heavy user of cold water washes...and I somehow survived.
But there is no doubt that adding a bit of heat to the wash makes it work better. I discovered this years back when stuck with a WCI Frigidaire and a supply of lackluster detergent. Washing in cold water meant that the only difference between the clothes going in and coming out of the washer was that the clothes were wet coming out. Other than that, no apparent difference. Flipping warm water on got them at least tolerably clean.
I'd be interested in knowing how many people now wash clothes in nothing but cold water, and how many people are leaning in that direction. I personally know or have known many, many people who say they use cold water most--and in many cases--all of the time.
But there is no doubt that adding a bit of heat to the wash makes it work better. I discovered this years back when stuck with a WCI Frigidaire and a supply of lackluster detergent. Washing in cold water meant that the only difference between the clothes going in and coming out of the washer was that the clothes were wet coming out. Other than that, no apparent difference. Flipping warm water on got them at least tolerably clean.
I'd be interested in knowing how many people now wash clothes in nothing but cold water, and how many people are leaning in that direction. I personally know or have known many, many people who say they use cold water most--and in many cases--all of the time.
Not me, I don't believe in it for general laundry at all. Warm water at last, if not Mediu (115-120 degrees). I think both my sisters wash in cold water, eww.
What I'd
like to know is whether they have noses?
I mean, working noses.
The icky gunk which builds up in cold-water only machines, the mold, the microbes.
The filth distributed over and through the clothing.
One step removed from reusing toilet paper. More or less.
like to know is whether they have noses?
I mean, working noses.
The icky gunk which builds up in cold-water only machines, the mold, the microbes.
The filth distributed over and through the clothing.
One step removed from reusing toilet paper. More or less.
IIRC, In Japan
Cold water is the norm for laundry, and considering that culture's reputation for being "clean", would think if it didn't work well, they would have switched.
Remember there is "cold" and there is cold water. My Miele has a setting for cold that is "85F", which feels quite warm a moi. However if one is using tap cold water during a Maine winter, then things are going to be different.
Again, laundry chemistry of the four factors of good laundry practice teaches us that if one part is decreased, the others need to be increased to compensate. With proper detergent formulation and dosages one should obtain equal results when laundering in cold, warm or hot water.
Cold water detergents marketed today are always slightly stronger per dose than their warm water cousins. Tide Coldwater is slighly more powerful than normal versions of Tide. Remember back in the old days one was told to add more detergent if using cold water, well this takes the place of that advice.
There are also enzymes and bleaches that will work in cold water.For the most part powdered detergents with bleach have switched over to sodium percarbonate instead of sodium perborate because the former will bleach and sanitise in cold water.
When one is laundering items with heavy embroidery and or to minimise wrinkles and shrinking, will use cold water and so far so good.
A final word about water temperature and laundry disenfection:
While it is true washing in warm or hot water can remove more germs from laundry, it has really not as much to do with the temperature of the water, but the fact soils, oils and biofilms are easier often to shift with warm or hot water, thus taking germs (and the food they were eating), away down the drain. Not over loading a washing machine and thus giving water room to flow around and through textiles does much of the sanitising of laundry.
In order to "kill" germs in laundry, a washing machine would not only have to reach temps in excess of 195F, it must do so quickly such as with the steam fed commercial washers. Long gradual heating of water allows bacteria, moulds and so forth (which are living things by the way),to simply adapt to the changing condition. Some will in case themselves in spores or otherwise protect themselves from what are becoming inhospitable conditions. Soon as things calm down, they will reactivate and pick up where they left off, living.
Even the best standard European domestic washing machine cannot heat water as fast as a steam boiler fed washer, which, IIRC can go from cold to boiling in about ten minutes.
Cold water is the norm for laundry, and considering that culture's reputation for being "clean", would think if it didn't work well, they would have switched.
Remember there is "cold" and there is cold water. My Miele has a setting for cold that is "85F", which feels quite warm a moi. However if one is using tap cold water during a Maine winter, then things are going to be different.
Again, laundry chemistry of the four factors of good laundry practice teaches us that if one part is decreased, the others need to be increased to compensate. With proper detergent formulation and dosages one should obtain equal results when laundering in cold, warm or hot water.
Cold water detergents marketed today are always slightly stronger per dose than their warm water cousins. Tide Coldwater is slighly more powerful than normal versions of Tide. Remember back in the old days one was told to add more detergent if using cold water, well this takes the place of that advice.
There are also enzymes and bleaches that will work in cold water.For the most part powdered detergents with bleach have switched over to sodium percarbonate instead of sodium perborate because the former will bleach and sanitise in cold water.
When one is laundering items with heavy embroidery and or to minimise wrinkles and shrinking, will use cold water and so far so good.
A final word about water temperature and laundry disenfection:
While it is true washing in warm or hot water can remove more germs from laundry, it has really not as much to do with the temperature of the water, but the fact soils, oils and biofilms are easier often to shift with warm or hot water, thus taking germs (and the food they were eating), away down the drain. Not over loading a washing machine and thus giving water room to flow around and through textiles does much of the sanitising of laundry.
In order to "kill" germs in laundry, a washing machine would not only have to reach temps in excess of 195F, it must do so quickly such as with the steam fed commercial washers. Long gradual heating of water allows bacteria, moulds and so forth (which are living things by the way),to simply adapt to the changing condition. Some will in case themselves in spores or otherwise protect themselves from what are becoming inhospitable conditions. Soon as things calm down, they will reactivate and pick up where they left off, living.
Even the best standard European domestic washing machine cannot heat water as fast as a steam boiler fed washer, which, IIRC can go from cold to boiling in about ten minutes.
Yes, the Japanese wash primarily in cold water. I witnessed when I was there back in the late 90's on business. The factory had set aside a laundry room for the American engineers to use (hint hint) and the washers, while agitator-less plate-driven affairs, all featured cold water only. I also stayed in a hotel with laundry service. I assume they used cold water only, and line dried everything. That's because all my socks and underclothing would come back as stiff as board. Clean, but not soft.
I think the reason for the cold water washing is not because of preference but rather because energy is 10 times more costly in Japan than it is here. And they have LOTS of water to wash in, so that probably helps to flush away the dirt as much as the detergent does.
They do have wonderful deep bathtubs with plenty of piping hot water, though. A real pleasure.
I think the reason for the cold water washing is not because of preference but rather because energy is 10 times more costly in Japan than it is here. And they have LOTS of water to wash in, so that probably helps to flush away the dirt as much as the detergent does.
They do have wonderful deep bathtubs with plenty of piping hot water, though. A real pleasure.
True, Laundress -
Of course, "cold" here right now is 12C which is too cold for even advanced enzymes.
And that's my sole objection - cold is relative, if we are talking about 30C or warmer, then sure - with additional time, agitation and enormous quantities of detergent and special activators for the enzymes and low-temp bleach.
My last three-phase Miele needed 17 minutes to get up to 60C from a cold start and an additional 15 from there to true 100C.
But how many clothes can you really boil?
I notice the 20C detergents work really well in my washer when I use the two hour program and the clothes are only moderately soiled. They clean really well at 40C. Is that because of the extra quantities of active ingredients and activators?
The jump in energy consumption to 60C is enormous.
Of course, "cold" here right now is 12C which is too cold for even advanced enzymes.
And that's my sole objection - cold is relative, if we are talking about 30C or warmer, then sure - with additional time, agitation and enormous quantities of detergent and special activators for the enzymes and low-temp bleach.
My last three-phase Miele needed 17 minutes to get up to 60C from a cold start and an additional 15 from there to true 100C.
But how many clothes can you really boil?
I notice the 20C detergents work really well in my washer when I use the two hour program and the clothes are only moderately soiled. They clean really well at 40C. Is that because of the extra quantities of active ingredients and activators?
The jump in energy consumption to 60C is enormous.
lordkenmore
Well-known member
"What I'd like to know is whether they have noses?"
One assumes so. But would those noses notice anything wrong with clothes after they are washed with many of today's laundry products? Like liquid detergent that smells like an exploding perfume factory? Indeed, the only thing some people might notice is a war between scents (laundry detergent vs softener vs dryer sheets).
It is my theory that one reason why laundry detergents have a too powerful scent today is because there are people who use and abuse cold water washes.
One assumes so. But would those noses notice anything wrong with clothes after they are washed with many of today's laundry products? Like liquid detergent that smells like an exploding perfume factory? Indeed, the only thing some people might notice is a war between scents (laundry detergent vs softener vs dryer sheets).
It is my theory that one reason why laundry detergents have a too powerful scent today is because there are people who use and abuse cold water washes.
Good point, John
I suspect you're right.
Why clean when you can perfume?
Still, kind of icky.
I should note, the old 3-phase Mieles and Baucknechts, etc. didn't use all three phases for some programs. When you chose 100C (Boilwash), you could have had 5,400W or 4,800W running the temp up very fast.
My current machine "only" uses 3,500W to heat, the newest Mieles use 2,000W to accommodate the electrical wiring in the GDR and because newer machines use less water and no longer offer "Boilwash".
In fact, my neighbor's brand new Miele asks you to confirm 70C before running that cycle.
I suspect you're right.
Why clean when you can perfume?
Still, kind of icky.
I should note, the old 3-phase Mieles and Baucknechts, etc. didn't use all three phases for some programs. When you chose 100C (Boilwash), you could have had 5,400W or 4,800W running the temp up very fast.
My current machine "only" uses 3,500W to heat, the newest Mieles use 2,000W to accommodate the electrical wiring in the GDR and because newer machines use less water and no longer offer "Boilwash".
In fact, my neighbor's brand new Miele asks you to confirm 70C before running that cycle.
lordkenmore
Well-known member
It does seem icky to perfume, rather than clean.
If I'm ever in a position where I'm arguing with someone who is committed to cold water for laundry, I'll suggest this test: switch to unscented laundry products for a while and see--or, more accurately, smell--what happens.
If I'm ever in a position where I'm arguing with someone who is committed to cold water for laundry, I'll suggest this test: switch to unscented laundry products for a while and see--or, more accurately, smell--what happens.
Well I will say this
Last year when My mother was here for a visit, (she is a retired LPN)was in my laundry room when I was putting a load into wash. She said "Now why are you wasting all that hot water?" (I was washing some sheets and light colored T-shirts). She continued with "you can get the same results in cold water. I do everything in cold now--detergents today are different then when you were growing up and you don't need all the hot water." (Keep in mind that I do have a Kenmore HE3 frontloader.) My response to her was "I have a HE washer how much more energy am I really going to save, and further more, these are sheets for gods sake--COLD WATER??? mother that's just plain gross!!!!" she laughted at my and walked out of the laundry room. She was extremely happy to see me hang the load out to dry on the line.
Last year when My mother was here for a visit, (she is a retired LPN)was in my laundry room when I was putting a load into wash. She said "Now why are you wasting all that hot water?" (I was washing some sheets and light colored T-shirts). She continued with "you can get the same results in cold water. I do everything in cold now--detergents today are different then when you were growing up and you don't need all the hot water." (Keep in mind that I do have a Kenmore HE3 frontloader.) My response to her was "I have a HE washer how much more energy am I really going to save, and further more, these are sheets for gods sake--COLD WATER??? mother that's just plain gross!!!!" she laughted at my and walked out of the laundry room. She was extremely happy to see me hang the load out to dry on the line.
Main Reason For Laundering Linens In Hot or Boiling
Water in the old days was to kill off vermin (bed bugs, lice, fleas, ticks, crabs, etc...) as well as shift the body oils and sweat that builds up on linen as one sleeps. The longer bed linens are used between laundering, the sooner they develop those areas of yellow discolouration which equals lipid/sweat staining.
When sheets and everything else was laundered in pure soaps, then yes, one needed hot or even boiling water to shift the aforementioned oils, but todays detergents with enzymes, and or liquid detergents with surfactants do a great job in warm or cold (85F) water.
Used to launder my pure linen sheets and pillow slips at 140F, but it was hard on them, even the cotton sheets started to develop holes and signs of wear. Today rarely go above 120F and even then most linens are done at 100F using Vaska or Linen Wash, all come out wonderful. On occasion will add some liquid enzyme product and or pre-treat any serious stains before the item goes into the wash.
One of the serious problems today is so many washing machines drain into a standpipe, rather than a sink. One always watches the rinse waters as they drain from either of my three washers into the sink. If I spy "scum" or "crud", or skin residues after say the first rinse, the cycle is aborted and a second wash is done. In truth it is far better to do a pre-wash then wash cycle of really badly soiled laundry than one big wash, even using hot water.
Detergents only have a limited properties to keep soils off laundry, even with STPP. Better to do as our grandmothers and soak or pre-wash items before, so much of the surface muck is taken away.
Water in the old days was to kill off vermin (bed bugs, lice, fleas, ticks, crabs, etc...) as well as shift the body oils and sweat that builds up on linen as one sleeps. The longer bed linens are used between laundering, the sooner they develop those areas of yellow discolouration which equals lipid/sweat staining.
When sheets and everything else was laundered in pure soaps, then yes, one needed hot or even boiling water to shift the aforementioned oils, but todays detergents with enzymes, and or liquid detergents with surfactants do a great job in warm or cold (85F) water.
Used to launder my pure linen sheets and pillow slips at 140F, but it was hard on them, even the cotton sheets started to develop holes and signs of wear. Today rarely go above 120F and even then most linens are done at 100F using Vaska or Linen Wash, all come out wonderful. On occasion will add some liquid enzyme product and or pre-treat any serious stains before the item goes into the wash.
One of the serious problems today is so many washing machines drain into a standpipe, rather than a sink. One always watches the rinse waters as they drain from either of my three washers into the sink. If I spy "scum" or "crud", or skin residues after say the first rinse, the cycle is aborted and a second wash is done. In truth it is far better to do a pre-wash then wash cycle of really badly soiled laundry than one big wash, even using hot water.
Detergents only have a limited properties to keep soils off laundry, even with STPP. Better to do as our grandmothers and soak or pre-wash items before, so much of the surface muck is taken away.
far better to do a pre-wash then wash cycle of really badly
Very true . In test here we have found it far better to do a double wash or prewash rather than one long wash. A warm pre wash (96F) for 6 to 8 mins followed by a 10 min wash and 10 min bleach gets 99% of the work clean. And we deal with soil levels that you would never have at home.
Very true . In test here we have found it far better to do a double wash or prewash rather than one long wash. A warm pre wash (96F) for 6 to 8 mins followed by a 10 min wash and 10 min bleach gets 99% of the work clean. And we deal with soil levels that you would never have at home.
Laundry Should Smell Fresh When It Comes Out Of Washing Mach
If items still have a pong about them, then they simply aren't clean and or well rinsed.
Ok, it is normal for some of one's personal "aroma" to remain on items worn close to the body and such, but again it should be a whiff, not a full walk-about odor.
IMHO persons whingeing on about their washing machines not being "clean" inside and having a build up of muck, aren't getting their laundry clean in the first place.
Rinse water should be clean and clear, if you see the same sort of muck one sees when sitting in a bath after along day's hard work, then there is still dirt and oils in the wash and they are being left inside the sump/pump area after the wash is done. These oils and soils are what provide a nice rich and fertile ground for things to grow.
If items still have a pong about them, then they simply aren't clean and or well rinsed.
Ok, it is normal for some of one's personal "aroma" to remain on items worn close to the body and such, but again it should be a whiff, not a full walk-about odor.
IMHO persons whingeing on about their washing machines not being "clean" inside and having a build up of muck, aren't getting their laundry clean in the first place.
Rinse water should be clean and clear, if you see the same sort of muck one sees when sitting in a bath after along day's hard work, then there is still dirt and oils in the wash and they are being left inside the sump/pump area after the wash is done. These oils and soils are what provide a nice rich and fertile ground for things to grow.
Quote: Even the best standard European domestic washing machine cannot heat water as fast as a steam boiler fed washer, which, IIRC can go from cold to boiling in about ten minutes.
Coolest machines I ever saw were front-load washers in Amsterdam Holland in the 90's.
They were in a laundromat that did not (appear to) have/use GAS!
The dryers were heated by steam via a heat-exchanger (think: car radiator) and the washers also heated the water-- IN THE MACHINE-- via steam!
There were 5 connections per washer:
water
drain
electric
steam in
condensate out
WILD!
One paid the proprietor, who started the machines without coins/bill!
The place was spotless and clean! LOVED IT!
Coolest machines I ever saw were front-load washers in Amsterdam Holland in the 90's.
They were in a laundromat that did not (appear to) have/use GAS!
The dryers were heated by steam via a heat-exchanger (think: car radiator) and the washers also heated the water-- IN THE MACHINE-- via steam!
There were 5 connections per washer:
water
drain
electric
steam in
condensate out
WILD!
One paid the proprietor, who started the machines without coins/bill!
The place was spotless and clean! LOVED IT!
IIRC, Some Modern Laundromat Washers Are Still Sold
With connections for steam boiler heating, though cannot say it is done that often.
Steam heating from a central boiler was the standard for commercial laundries for ages, however today it has fallen out of favour as local laws regarding whom can operate the boiler have tightened up.
Also as you would imagine having all those steam pipes running all over the place not only made the laundry warm, but could be dangerous. There is the point as pointed out that one requires two sets of pipes for steam feed (intake of steam, and take away of condensate), which complicates installation.
Most laundries simply rely on a central hot water "boiler" and recirculation pumps to bring heated water to the machines. Of course there are also self-heating washers,using electric (common) or gas (less so, at least in the United States) in commercial use.
Steam can hold and release far more heat than say an electric heating element in terms of economy. It takes some good amount of electric power to equal what one would get from steam in terms of performace (fast heating of water). Maybe someone will invent induction heated washers. *LOL*
With connections for steam boiler heating, though cannot say it is done that often.
Steam heating from a central boiler was the standard for commercial laundries for ages, however today it has fallen out of favour as local laws regarding whom can operate the boiler have tightened up.
Also as you would imagine having all those steam pipes running all over the place not only made the laundry warm, but could be dangerous. There is the point as pointed out that one requires two sets of pipes for steam feed (intake of steam, and take away of condensate), which complicates installation.
Most laundries simply rely on a central hot water "boiler" and recirculation pumps to bring heated water to the machines. Of course there are also self-heating washers,using electric (common) or gas (less so, at least in the United States) in commercial use.
Steam can hold and release far more heat than say an electric heating element in terms of economy. It takes some good amount of electric power to equal what one would get from steam in terms of performace (fast heating of water). Maybe someone will invent induction heated washers. *LOL*
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