Once a hot water boy, always a hot water boy. Give me hot water, or give me a self-heating Miele.
Cold Water washing
- Thread starter mattywashboy
- Start date
Help Support :
Love "proflie" hot water washes as much as the next Miele owner, but electric rates this past summer have me reconsidering anything above 120F. Most loads are 100F (warm), with only towels and other whites at 120F. Will evaluate things if and when electric rates decline. Currently am paying about 21 cents per KWH.
L.
L.
oxydolfan
Most Aussie top loaders have litle or no diecast components (not sure if they are aluminium or zinc) in contact with wash water. Several older machines in the 60s and 70s had some components made from diecast metal and they eroded over time. Simpson hubs which join the basket to the shaft were notorious (though cheaply and easily replaced), and Jap impeller machines too. Most Aussie machines from late 70s have stainless steel or plastic instead. Enamelled steel washbowls haven't been on Aussie machines for decades, usually plastic on base models and stainless on all other models. Plastic pump housings, plastic outer drums, stainless steel shafts are standard even on cheap versions. Where the diecast metal is used (spider ass'y on Hoover front loaders from the 80s for example)the parts are available as a spare. Australian Hoover FL's (Zodiac and Electra)had a replaceable spider (drum axle and drum support arms) whereas most other machines require a complete drum/axle assembly, which means the machine is not worth repairing. Fisher Paykels have stainess steel shafts, top quality seals, plastic drum hub, plastic and ceramic drum splines and stainless or plastic everything else. I don't think they have a single diecast component.
The little Jap top loaders are reliable and seem to hold up to cold washing fairly well, but the drum hubs are generally diecast and seize/corrode badly onto the spin shaft to the point of being non-removable. When the bearings eventually go these machines are usually a throwaway.
Chris.
Most Aussie top loaders have litle or no diecast components (not sure if they are aluminium or zinc) in contact with wash water. Several older machines in the 60s and 70s had some components made from diecast metal and they eroded over time. Simpson hubs which join the basket to the shaft were notorious (though cheaply and easily replaced), and Jap impeller machines too. Most Aussie machines from late 70s have stainless steel or plastic instead. Enamelled steel washbowls haven't been on Aussie machines for decades, usually plastic on base models and stainless on all other models. Plastic pump housings, plastic outer drums, stainless steel shafts are standard even on cheap versions. Where the diecast metal is used (spider ass'y on Hoover front loaders from the 80s for example)the parts are available as a spare. Australian Hoover FL's (Zodiac and Electra)had a replaceable spider (drum axle and drum support arms) whereas most other machines require a complete drum/axle assembly, which means the machine is not worth repairing. Fisher Paykels have stainess steel shafts, top quality seals, plastic drum hub, plastic and ceramic drum splines and stainless or plastic everything else. I don't think they have a single diecast component.
The little Jap top loaders are reliable and seem to hold up to cold washing fairly well, but the drum hubs are generally diecast and seize/corrode badly onto the spin shaft to the point of being non-removable. When the bearings eventually go these machines are usually a throwaway.
Chris.
Our electric here in Europe is more expensive I think than in the US; but that doesn't really deter me from using a 60 or 95*C wash if I need it. But I wash a lot of general laundry (clothes) at 40*C; so by rarely using higher temperatures I do my bit that way - rather than wash everything at 60*C (which some people I know actually do... yet complain that their darks are always faded!).
Jon
Jon
cehalstead
Well-known member
cost of electricity
Laundress,
I hate to share this news, but here in the hills and hollows of WV, my current electric rate is 5 cents per KWH......
Laundress,
I hate to share this news, but here in the hills and hollows of WV, my current electric rate is 5 cents per KWH......
Never use cold
Hot for sheets, towels and underwear. Warm for clothes. If they are clothes that I don't want to fade, I set the machine on warm, and then turn the hot water faucet down so that the water is cooler, but still at least body temperature. That way, the body oils will dissolve and the clothes will get clean.
Body oils cannot dissolve in cold water. If the body oils cannot dissolve, the clothes cannot get clean. It's that simple.
People always give me shit and ridicule me whenever I say this, but I'll say it anyway. If you use Woolite, your clothes will not fade nearly as much (even though they get just as clean as with other detergents). A bottle of Woolite really does not cost that much more than the other detergents, and you don't need to use as much of it as you would the other detergents. Besides, look what your clothes cost! That washtub has hundreds and hundreds of dollars of clothes in it. So what if a bottle of Woolite costs 50 cents or a buck more. You aren't saving any money if you keep prematurely fading your clothes with Tide or dulling them with cheaper detergents like Purex.
Are the European detergents such as Persil and Ariel better at color preservation than the American brands?
Hot for sheets, towels and underwear. Warm for clothes. If they are clothes that I don't want to fade, I set the machine on warm, and then turn the hot water faucet down so that the water is cooler, but still at least body temperature. That way, the body oils will dissolve and the clothes will get clean.
Body oils cannot dissolve in cold water. If the body oils cannot dissolve, the clothes cannot get clean. It's that simple.
People always give me shit and ridicule me whenever I say this, but I'll say it anyway. If you use Woolite, your clothes will not fade nearly as much (even though they get just as clean as with other detergents). A bottle of Woolite really does not cost that much more than the other detergents, and you don't need to use as much of it as you would the other detergents. Besides, look what your clothes cost! That washtub has hundreds and hundreds of dollars of clothes in it. So what if a bottle of Woolite costs 50 cents or a buck more. You aren't saving any money if you keep prematurely fading your clothes with Tide or dulling them with cheaper detergents like Purex.
Are the European detergents such as Persil and Ariel better at color preservation than the American brands?
Warm washing cold rinsing
We wash in warm water for all our clothes and I like hot for towels and this seems to give us the best possible result and don't forget I have a twintub so imagine plunging your hands in icy cold water in the middle of winter to transfer the wash into the spinner bbbrrrrrrr.
I must admit though we do our spin rinsing with cold water.
In regards to residue buildup from soap powder and the like once every 2-3 months I half fill the washtub with hot water and add half a bottle of white vinegar and run the washtub through a 10 minute wash and then just drain areally cleans all the gunk out of your hoses and scrubs the washtub as well.
I guess for owners of automatic washers you would simply put your machine through a standard cycle.
Cheers.
Steve
We wash in warm water for all our clothes and I like hot for towels and this seems to give us the best possible result and don't forget I have a twintub so imagine plunging your hands in icy cold water in the middle of winter to transfer the wash into the spinner bbbrrrrrrr.
I must admit though we do our spin rinsing with cold water.
In regards to residue buildup from soap powder and the like once every 2-3 months I half fill the washtub with hot water and add half a bottle of white vinegar and run the washtub through a 10 minute wash and then just drain areally cleans all the gunk out of your hoses and scrubs the washtub as well.
I guess for owners of automatic washers you would simply put your machine through a standard cycle.
Cheers.
Steve
Only thing about Woolite that one would call "colour friendly" is that it does not contain OBAs.
Woolite is manily SLS, and while good for washing wool or silks in cold water, wouldn't bother with it for every day laundry, nor more than I would launder my towels in Persil Perwoll. Besides most hand/fine/Woolite type products sold in the United States are SLS based and create mounds of suds, thus a no go in my Miele or any other front loader.
American laundry detergents with the exception of a few like Cheer are full of OBAs, it is those optical brightening agents which cause coloured and dark items to "fade".
Today's top shelf detergents are full of enzymes, thus are quite capable of cleaning in warm water, and actually have a sweet spot at around 100F to 120F. Activated oxygen bleaches also work well within that range, so the need for hot water washing is lessned. Of course if one feels the need to use hot or boil wash temps, have at it by all means. Until electric rates decrease, am sticking to 120F to 100F for most items, and may even break out that box of Tide Coldwater detergent.
Woolite is manily SLS, and while good for washing wool or silks in cold water, wouldn't bother with it for every day laundry, nor more than I would launder my towels in Persil Perwoll. Besides most hand/fine/Woolite type products sold in the United States are SLS based and create mounds of suds, thus a no go in my Miele or any other front loader.
American laundry detergents with the exception of a few like Cheer are full of OBAs, it is those optical brightening agents which cause coloured and dark items to "fade".
Today's top shelf detergents are full of enzymes, thus are quite capable of cleaning in warm water, and actually have a sweet spot at around 100F to 120F. Activated oxygen bleaches also work well within that range, so the need for hot water washing is lessned. Of course if one feels the need to use hot or boil wash temps, have at it by all means. Until electric rates decrease, am sticking to 120F to 100F for most items, and may even break out that box of Tide Coldwater detergent.
I was using Woolite For Dark Colors, but found it didn't take care of ring-around-the collar very well. That and it made mountains of suds in my FL'er. I switched to Cheer for Dark Colors (or whatever it's called) and it cleans pretty well.
I don't use Tide CW (my daily driver) on dark colors, as it as optical brighteners which tend to make blacks and dark grays look faded. It has no problem eradicating ring-around-the-collar on my white shirts. I wear a LOT of black, gray and navy blue from September-May.
I don't use Tide CW (my daily driver) on dark colors, as it as optical brighteners which tend to make blacks and dark grays look faded. It has no problem eradicating ring-around-the-collar on my white shirts. I wear a LOT of black, gray and navy blue from September-May.
If one can stand the scent, Persil's "FEWA/Black Magic" is a very good detergent for darks and colours that bleed. Just very highly scented, and that scent is a cross between a cheap tart and hair dye. Have several bottles of the stuff, and still cannot bring myself to use it when I should.
L.
L.
Governments have pretty much done all they can with energy laws pertaining to washing machines, any less water and well be dry cleaning; so to find more savings methinks there will be a push towards more warm and cold water laundry.
Even on many new European washing machines, temps above 180F are becoming rare nowadays, as research shows most washing done on that side of the pond is mainly at 100F or below.
Sanitising by heat is not a very efficient method, some of the best disenfectants such as chlorine bleach and quats work quite well in cool or cold water. With this in mind detergent chemical suppliers can provide detergents which clean quite well and address any concerns about "germs".
Another concern, as more households move towards front loaders, are detergents with excellnet anti-dye transfer/colour bleeding chemicals. This makes it possible to launder certian colours and whites in one load, a boon when dealing with long front loader wash cycles. The European commercial detergent in my stash does wonders in this respect, as does Persil's "FEWA" detergent. Didnt' trust either at first, but have been mixing loads of whites and colours for awhile now, with a 100F wash and no problems. Yes, sometimes there is colour in the wash water, but whites stay white and colours stay unmuddled, so whatever is in these detergents does work. Sometimes I throw one of those Shout colour catcher wipes in just for good measure.
Think the problems many are facing with using warm or cold water washing, especially in front loaders is not using a top quality detergent. Tide with Bleach, Tide HE, Persil and other top shelf detergents clean quite well in low hot, warm and even cold water. Always remember laundry is a mix of time,chemicals,mechanical action, and temp. A decrease in one variable, usually means others must be increased. Thus washing in cool or cold water means using a good amount of detergent. Indeed Tide Coldwater is actually more concentrated than other versions of Tide, including TWB. Thus without knowing it those using TCW are increasing the amount of detergent.
Even on many new European washing machines, temps above 180F are becoming rare nowadays, as research shows most washing done on that side of the pond is mainly at 100F or below.
Sanitising by heat is not a very efficient method, some of the best disenfectants such as chlorine bleach and quats work quite well in cool or cold water. With this in mind detergent chemical suppliers can provide detergents which clean quite well and address any concerns about "germs".
Another concern, as more households move towards front loaders, are detergents with excellnet anti-dye transfer/colour bleeding chemicals. This makes it possible to launder certian colours and whites in one load, a boon when dealing with long front loader wash cycles. The European commercial detergent in my stash does wonders in this respect, as does Persil's "FEWA" detergent. Didnt' trust either at first, but have been mixing loads of whites and colours for awhile now, with a 100F wash and no problems. Yes, sometimes there is colour in the wash water, but whites stay white and colours stay unmuddled, so whatever is in these detergents does work. Sometimes I throw one of those Shout colour catcher wipes in just for good measure.
Think the problems many are facing with using warm or cold water washing, especially in front loaders is not using a top quality detergent. Tide with Bleach, Tide HE, Persil and other top shelf detergents clean quite well in low hot, warm and even cold water. Always remember laundry is a mix of time,chemicals,mechanical action, and temp. A decrease in one variable, usually means others must be increased. Thus washing in cool or cold water means using a good amount of detergent. Indeed Tide Coldwater is actually more concentrated than other versions of Tide, including TWB. Thus without knowing it those using TCW are increasing the amount of detergent.
Back in the day when mom used Woolite liquid for "colored clothes" I remember it generated HEAPS of suds but the water never felt slippery like it did with a proper dose of Tide.
westytoploader
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2004
- Messages
- 4,485
My whites are still washed in HOT water with everyone else's in the '03 Dependable Care, but everything else is washed in the Studio machines. As of now I still have only cold water down there, however, it's not TRUE cold; more lukewarm/warm than anything. I switched to full-time Studio laundry about 8 months ago, and haven't really had too many problems or stains I couldn't get out...if it's really bad I just pre-treat it and throw it in the Unimatic!
hairybruinuk
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2006
- Messages
- 56
not hygienic
Cold water washes are not hygienic to get the bacteria, dirt, germs, and smells out of anything you wash in cold/cool water
love to one and all hairybruinuk
Cold water washes are not hygienic to get the bacteria, dirt, germs, and smells out of anything you wash in cold/cool water
love to one and all hairybruinuk
I guess I just can't accept that my clothes are all that filthy!
I was so sick and tired of tossing increasingly expensive extended boxer briefs, socks, etc. into the trash because of holes, torn seams, etc. When I'm sick, it's a different story, but, with the advent of these space-age detergents that seem to remove every stain imaginable, I began to ask myself if I wasn't making myself neurotic worrying about germs and bacteria lurking about when, after all, I smoke, I like rich foods, have taken some IMHO very flaky antidepressant drugs, and take the 2 train.
Also, I'm glad to be saving money on energy. It would trouble me more to have to cut back on hot showers, air conditioning and the like. Cold water washing might be something I'm willing to sacrifice, in order to insure that I don't have to skimp on creature comforts.
It means changing around detergents, softeners, etc. that don't work well in cold water, but I'm trying to make sure I get replacements that don't fade darks as well.
It's not just an energy thing, either. I'm really trying to take the best care of my clothing that I possibly can.
I was so sick and tired of tossing increasingly expensive extended boxer briefs, socks, etc. into the trash because of holes, torn seams, etc. When I'm sick, it's a different story, but, with the advent of these space-age detergents that seem to remove every stain imaginable, I began to ask myself if I wasn't making myself neurotic worrying about germs and bacteria lurking about when, after all, I smoke, I like rich foods, have taken some IMHO very flaky antidepressant drugs, and take the 2 train.
Also, I'm glad to be saving money on energy. It would trouble me more to have to cut back on hot showers, air conditioning and the like. Cold water washing might be something I'm willing to sacrifice, in order to insure that I don't have to skimp on creature comforts.
It means changing around detergents, softeners, etc. that don't work well in cold water, but I'm trying to make sure I get replacements that don't fade darks as well.
It's not just an energy thing, either. I'm really trying to take the best care of my clothing that I possibly can.
I'm not a germophobe, either, but I do use chlorine bleach in my cold water white loads, mainly because I wash all my whites together and some of my dish towels have raw poultry/meat juices on them for a couple of days before they get washed.
My white loads definitely show less wear and tear in cold, even with my continued use of LCB. What I also noticed is the armpit area of my T-shirts no longer get stiff and weird, as they used to when I washed in hot water with bleach. Don't know why, excactly, but they don't. I'm guessing there was some sort of reaction going on between the deodorant, the water temp, the chemicals in the detergent/bleach and the fabric.
I was SO skeptical of washing whites in cold water that I put a hand towel (washed in hot water) in a zip-lock bag and stuck it up on the top shelf of my towel closet in the bathroom---to use as a guide to see if my whites became gray or discolored over time. After 7 months of cold water washes in powdered Tide CW, they are still as blazingly white as ever. And I don't bleach my white bath linen loads--it's strictly the TCW on its own.
My white loads definitely show less wear and tear in cold, even with my continued use of LCB. What I also noticed is the armpit area of my T-shirts no longer get stiff and weird, as they used to when I washed in hot water with bleach. Don't know why, excactly, but they don't. I'm guessing there was some sort of reaction going on between the deodorant, the water temp, the chemicals in the detergent/bleach and the fabric.
I was SO skeptical of washing whites in cold water that I put a hand towel (washed in hot water) in a zip-lock bag and stuck it up on the top shelf of my towel closet in the bathroom---to use as a guide to see if my whites became gray or discolored over time. After 7 months of cold water washes in powdered Tide CW, they are still as blazingly white as ever. And I don't bleach my white bath linen loads--it's strictly the TCW on its own.
This thing about cold water and sanitising laundry gets me on several levels.
First in all my years both while at nursing school, and reading various historic accounts of world events; have never heard of a healthy person becoming ill, much less dying from laundry with modern methods. Mind you, there are certian diseases which can be transfered by handling soiled and or infected linen/textiles, smallpox comes to mind, but by and large today's modern health care and sanitiation practices have eliminated such diseases. In the rare case one did come down with a highly infectous disease, one is likely to be in hospital, not like years ago when you would have been nursed and or died at home.
While taking bacteriolgy one of our assignments was to swab and culture various surfaces around the lab/school; an am here to tell you if you saw what was growing on your own hands (even after being washed), computer keyboards, telephones and any of the hundreds of objects one comes into contact daily, you'd never feel safe in your own skin again. Yet, unless one is already ill, you still go on each day despite contact with these said germs.
People still wash dishes/clean counter tops with a grungy sponge that has been used for said tasks longer than it should have been. Touch toilet seats, shower curtains/liners ( a proven huge breeding ground for all sorts of nasty germs, much of which comes from wind passed which sends lots of said germs into the air where they find a nice comfy home in the warm,moist environment. Soaps and dead skin provide the food. And you are standing in that shower naked, NAKED think about all those germs, just waiting to get you! Now you've touched that shower curtain then a towel, now you are drying off with that infected towel! Oh how will you live! Yet you do, don't you.
Bacteria and "germs" are not very hardy creatures, and have been around humans long as there have been humans. Our bodies have developed quite well to respond to germs, and it is only when those systems are compromised that we become ill. Even then a healthy person recovers on their own, and or seeks medical care. There are people doing laundry in bodies of water all over the world where animal and human waste is present, along with god only knows what else. Yet they live. Mind you drinking or bathing in that same water is another story all together, but wearing laundry washed in those bodies of water has not caused an epidemic.
Modern laundry practices do a great job of sanitising laundry, even using cold water. If it didn't there would be legions of reports regarding various skin and or infections, which simply hasn't happened.
All things being equal hot water washing may not provide the level of germ killing one might expect. This is true when the washing machine in question has a high "germ" count to begin with, and laundering takes place at temps not high/long enough to kill off all the said germs. While 160F at 20mins may be good for E Coli, there are yeasts, and other viruses that require 180F or even 200F for longer periods of time to be killed. Yes, a good portion of "germs" are sent floating way with the wash water, but those that survive are on the laundry and in the machine to live and "fight" another day. If you ever really wish to be grossed out, ask washer repair person to show you what grows between washing machine tubs after several years, even with "boil" washes.
L.
First in all my years both while at nursing school, and reading various historic accounts of world events; have never heard of a healthy person becoming ill, much less dying from laundry with modern methods. Mind you, there are certian diseases which can be transfered by handling soiled and or infected linen/textiles, smallpox comes to mind, but by and large today's modern health care and sanitiation practices have eliminated such diseases. In the rare case one did come down with a highly infectous disease, one is likely to be in hospital, not like years ago when you would have been nursed and or died at home.
While taking bacteriolgy one of our assignments was to swab and culture various surfaces around the lab/school; an am here to tell you if you saw what was growing on your own hands (even after being washed), computer keyboards, telephones and any of the hundreds of objects one comes into contact daily, you'd never feel safe in your own skin again. Yet, unless one is already ill, you still go on each day despite contact with these said germs.
People still wash dishes/clean counter tops with a grungy sponge that has been used for said tasks longer than it should have been. Touch toilet seats, shower curtains/liners ( a proven huge breeding ground for all sorts of nasty germs, much of which comes from wind passed which sends lots of said germs into the air where they find a nice comfy home in the warm,moist environment. Soaps and dead skin provide the food. And you are standing in that shower naked, NAKED think about all those germs, just waiting to get you! Now you've touched that shower curtain then a towel, now you are drying off with that infected towel! Oh how will you live! Yet you do, don't you.
Bacteria and "germs" are not very hardy creatures, and have been around humans long as there have been humans. Our bodies have developed quite well to respond to germs, and it is only when those systems are compromised that we become ill. Even then a healthy person recovers on their own, and or seeks medical care. There are people doing laundry in bodies of water all over the world where animal and human waste is present, along with god only knows what else. Yet they live. Mind you drinking or bathing in that same water is another story all together, but wearing laundry washed in those bodies of water has not caused an epidemic.
Modern laundry practices do a great job of sanitising laundry, even using cold water. If it didn't there would be legions of reports regarding various skin and or infections, which simply hasn't happened.
All things being equal hot water washing may not provide the level of germ killing one might expect. This is true when the washing machine in question has a high "germ" count to begin with, and laundering takes place at temps not high/long enough to kill off all the said germs. While 160F at 20mins may be good for E Coli, there are yeasts, and other viruses that require 180F or even 200F for longer periods of time to be killed. Yes, a good portion of "germs" are sent floating way with the wash water, but those that survive are on the laundry and in the machine to live and "fight" another day. If you ever really wish to be grossed out, ask washer repair person to show you what grows between washing machine tubs after several years, even with "boil" washes.
L.
Actually chlorine bleach kills germs in cold water quite well. However the problem with using chlorine bleach for germ killing is getting the proper ratio of bleach to germs.
Like many other disenfectants, chlorine bleach is deactivated by the presence of large amounts of organic matter/germs. In hospital settings the mantra is "clean first, disenfect second" that is one cleans the surface/item/whatever first to remove most of the organic matter/germs first, then apply disenfectant. If you read the back of chlorine bleach bottles or any EPA certified disenfectant it will say for sanitising/disenfection one should clean the surface first, then apply the disenfection solution, allow it to sit for a period of time then rinse if required. When it comes to hospital and other laundries using chlorine for disenfection, it is added as a separate cycle after the wash water has been drained away, taking much of the germs/organic matter with it. This means less germs for the CB to deal with, thus better results using less CB. CB kills most "germs" and moulds in about 5 minutes or less, with proper dosage. Longer contact time simply leads to textile damage.
Ever notice after heavy rains or potential sewage contamination, tap water reeks more of chlorine than usual? That is because the water supply has uppped the dosage of chlorine in response to an increase or potential increase "germs". We've had so many heavy storms around the water system, our tap water smells like a bottle of Clorox.
Anyone that has been in the military or lived through war/something that disrupted normal water supplies may be familar with the little chlorine pellets one is supposed to add to a container of suspected water before drinking. MASH units or other places with labs will test the water and give a pretty accurate dosage, everyone else must start with a baseline dosage and increase up or down depending upon how dirty the water is.
L.
Like many other disenfectants, chlorine bleach is deactivated by the presence of large amounts of organic matter/germs. In hospital settings the mantra is "clean first, disenfect second" that is one cleans the surface/item/whatever first to remove most of the organic matter/germs first, then apply disenfectant. If you read the back of chlorine bleach bottles or any EPA certified disenfectant it will say for sanitising/disenfection one should clean the surface first, then apply the disenfection solution, allow it to sit for a period of time then rinse if required. When it comes to hospital and other laundries using chlorine for disenfection, it is added as a separate cycle after the wash water has been drained away, taking much of the germs/organic matter with it. This means less germs for the CB to deal with, thus better results using less CB. CB kills most "germs" and moulds in about 5 minutes or less, with proper dosage. Longer contact time simply leads to textile damage.
Ever notice after heavy rains or potential sewage contamination, tap water reeks more of chlorine than usual? That is because the water supply has uppped the dosage of chlorine in response to an increase or potential increase "germs". We've had so many heavy storms around the water system, our tap water smells like a bottle of Clorox.
Anyone that has been in the military or lived through war/something that disrupted normal water supplies may be familar with the little chlorine pellets one is supposed to add to a container of suspected water before drinking. MASH units or other places with labs will test the water and give a pretty accurate dosage, everyone else must start with a baseline dosage and increase up or down depending upon how dirty the water is.
L.
