Consumer Reports ranks phosphate-free DW detergents

[supersuds]

The September issue of CR takes a look at the current offerings. Bottom line: "Although none equaled the excellent (but now discontinued) product that topped our Ratings in August 2009, seven were very good."

The top 4 are check-rated.

1. Finish Quantum
2. Finish Powerball Tabs, a best buy
3. Cascade Complete All in 1 pacs
4. Cascade with Dawn Action Pacs

The article cautions ot to buy just by brand as Cascade and Finish products were scattered through the rankings. The five lowest scores were from Finish powder, Palmolive Eco, Cascade with Dawn Gel, Wave 2X Ultra High Performance, and Finisg Gel.

 

[frigilux]

CR tests dishwasher detergents in moderately hard water, which is what they believe most people have in their homes. It would seem the new phosphate-free detergents don't have the power to equal their predecessors under those conditions.

I have mechanically-softened water and have noticed no difference at all in cleaning power in my LG dishwasher. Dishes, glasses, flatware, and pots/pans come just as clean as they did when I used phosphate detergents.

It must be frustrating for those who are experiencing decreased cleaning power and/or a tell-tale white film on dishes. Believe me, I'd be the first in line to bitch about it if I was getting those results! But quite honestly, I have absolutely no complaints about the new formula.

For most loads, I use Cascade Action pacs, which I buy in bulk at Sam's Club. For heavily-soiled loads, I use Cascade Complete All-in-1 pacs. Really tough pots/pans loads get Cascade Complete Gel, for which I fill both the pre-wash and main wash cups.

I'll have to give Finish Quantum a try when my current stash of Cascade products is depleted.

You can bet the chemists at P&G will be working on improving the current formulas, especially since many people find they don't work as well as the old versions.

 

[launderess]

Unless The Formula Has Changed

Finish tabs one sees in local supermarkets still contain phosphates.

Just looked over this issue of CR, and am that sad over the dumbing down of automatic dishwasher detergent. Oh well, long as one can get one's hands on STPP things should be ok.

As the late Mr. Heston would say; "out of my cold dead hands".

 

[whirlcool]

All of the DW detergents in our stores are now phosphate free. I haven't checked Sam's, but a month or two ago they had quite a few pallets of the Cascade Action packs with phosphates.

Here is what we found in terms of cleaning ability in our Maytag DW. They are in the order of performance with 1 being the best.

1. Finish Quantum Tabs (with phosphates) (tie)
1. Cascade Complete (with phosphates) (tie)
2. Palmolive Lavender ECO detergent (with 1/2 tsp STPP added)
3. Walmart Great Value (with 1/2 tsp STPP added)
4. Finish 3 in 1 tabs. (with phosphates)

But we don't buy the Finish Quantum tabs as they are just too expensive for what you get.

 

[sudsmaster]

In my neck of the woods, the Cascade Complete Action Pacs are still phosphated as well, even on mainstream supermarket shelves.

 

[supersuds]

Lol about "cold dead hands."

My problem is that I've got so MUCH of a stash now it will probably get hard as a rock before I can use half of it....

 

[launderess]

Stash Over Load

Weclome to my world!

Am not purchasing anything else for the duration, and even have started giving away detergent to friends and relatives.

Imagine rolling up to a family BBQ with bottles of detergent along with potato salad!

The vintage stuff isn't going anywhere though!

 

[launderess]

Oh And By The Way

While down at the supermarket eariler, peeped Finish/Electrasol powerball tabs. The box one picked up stated clearly the stuff contains phosphates.

Either CR wasn't paying attention or something else is going on.

 

[DADoES]

 
I specifically checked Finish tabs, don't recall now which Quantum or what, last time at the store since others have mentioned they're finding phosphated ... but here is non-phosphate.

 

[dj-gabriele]

European opinion:

It was 3 years ago...

I tried only once a dishwasher without phosphates, it was Unilever Svelto (I guess it's called Sun elsewhere) and even if my machine is cold fill with self heating and with built-in water softener, the results were terrible!

Everything was coated with a thin white layer of powder: Teflon surfaces where completely white, stainless steel pots were like covered in lime-scale and glasses were powdery feeling with this white stuff!

I called them right after the second wash and asked for a refund (that never arrived anyway!)

So, if something like that will happen in Europe too, well I'm going back to hand washing!
Anyway, the last time I checked the dishwasher tablets contained 6% phosphorus by weight so they surely changed the formula...

 

[supersuds]

I actually did not know water softeners could be built into dishwashers.

How does it operate? Do you have to add salt?

 

[sudsmaster]

Yes, although I've never seen one, I assume that the euro dishwashers with built-in water softeners function much like the ion-exchange whole house water softeners in the USA, except on a much smaller scale (a dishwasher uses far less water than a whole house, of course).

One problem with putting the water softeners into American market dishwashers might be that we hook our dw's up to hot water lines. Hot water and ion exchange water softeners probably don't get along too well. Might damage the resin or something. Cold water is probably needed for the in-appliance water softener to work correctly.

And yes, the dw water softeners need to have a supply of salt to work. Sounds like other than keeping it topped off, the rest is automatic.

 

[nmassman44]

My Miele dishwasher has a water softener built in. It does help some. One needs to use dishwasher salt. The dealer used to stock the Miele salt now they stock Somat. It runs about $11 a box. I bought a box of Cascade w/Dawn powder and the result was OK. The worst by far is Sunlight pacs. Here in Mass it is now against the law to sell phosphated dishwasher detergent. Kinda maddening. I can still find it in Maine but even then thats getting scarce as people are hoarding it.
Anyways with my dishwasher when the salt gets low it will let me know to add salt. With my Miele it adjusts to the hardness since it senses how hard it is. Our water runs about 9d according to my dishwasher...it will fluctuate between 9d and 11d. Miele measures the hardness to the scale they use in Germany. My dishwasher is also hooked up to the hot water so temp is not an issue it works with hot or cold water.

 

[jerrod6]

Like nmassman44, my DW has a water softener. Here is a link to a vid showing how the softener works. The info is near the end. The vid was posted by Logixx.

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?29173

 

[sudsmaster]

German water hardness degrees are pretty much equivalent to American grains per gallon hardness measurement.

10 grains would qualify as hard water.

 

[dj-gabriele]

Hot water and softener

There's no problem in using the water softener built in into the dishwasher with hot water. Both my machines are rated for hot water up to 60°C (140°F). Even if I have them hooked to cold only because when we tried, as soon as there was barely warm water at the machine, it stopped filling as they use only 4 litres per fill.

The built-in water softener is on the same principle of a "standard" one and thus you add salt to it every month or so, depending on the usage. Usually a light will come on to alert you to refill.

On my Indesit the regeneration happens during the drying phase and the waste water is used to cool the tank to aid in condensation drying. The usage is 18 L per cycle per 12 place settngs.

On the SMEG machine, that has forced air condensation drying (no heat added) the waste salty water is dumped before the cycle starts (2/3 litres). The machine, more modern only regenerates resins on a per need basis instead than on every use and has a more modest water usage at only 13 litres per cycle per 14 place settings.

 

[jerrod6]

The regeneration happens as needed on my DW. It does it more in the summer because the water is harder. So far this year it is about 1 once per month in the summer except for July when it happened twice. In the winter it can go for a few months without regeneration. In the winter the hardness is around 7d. After the load yesterday it is at 15d.

There is not too much of a way to tell it is happening unless you notice the machine as soon as you turn it on. When it needs to regenerate the machine will turn the drain dump on and begin drawing water at the same time as soon as you start it. It will draw a bit of water, stop, draw a small amount again, stop and repeat this a few times. During this period the drain pump runs nonstop. The regeneration lasts about 2 minutes and then the normal first fill will begin. I am connected to hot water although sometimes it's not that hot but so far no problem with it.

 

[foraloysius]

My AEG Öko Favorit 6060 dishwasher regenerates before every cycle. It starts taking water in and pumping out at the same time and does that for a short amount of time, never measured it. After a while it stops taking in water and keeps on pumping for a while.

 

[DADoES]

 
DishDrawers are available with onboard water softeners.

 

[sudsmaster]

I've noticed that the old phosphated powders seem to work better than the phosphated gel packs. I think this is because although the the percent phosphorus in the gel packs is equal to or higher than that of the powders, the gel packs are more concentrated so it's actually fewer grams of phosphate per load.

Since I've been able to accumulate (OK, Hoard) a stash of phosphated Cascade powder, I'm considering returning the two unopened tubs of relatively expensive phosphated Cascade gel packs to Costco. Although I do find them handy for use in the older Hobart/KA top loading dishwashers, esp the KD-2P, which lacks a built in dispenser.

 

[retropia]

That makes sense that the concentrated gel packs would likely contain less phosphates per use than non-concentrated, phosphated detergent.

It's probably less of an issue in newer dishwashers that use less water, and more of an issue in older dishwashers that use more water. The level of water hardness in one's particular locale may also be a factor.

Our new Kenmore dishwasher seems to clean fine with the concentrated, phosphated Cascade Action Pacs, but it uses less water than do older dishwashers. When I install the new/old Maytag, I may dip into my stash of vintage Cascade powder for use in that machine.

 

[sudsmaster]

The water hardness here varies by season. It's because the regional water company varies the source of the water during the year. I've noticed that, in general, the water tends to get a bit harder in the summer than in the winter. That's probably because we have dry summers and wet winters. In the winter most of the water seems to come directly from the mountain sources, which are soft. In the summer more of the water seems to come from local reservoirs, which tend to have higher hardness levels. The difference is not major - the hardness can be as little as two grains in the winter to six or more grains in the summer - but it's enough for me to notice spotting on washed cars or on glassware in the summer when little to none is noticed in the winter.

In any case, I've recently noticed more spotting on glassware using the phosphated cascade action pacs. I switched back to the powder version and the spotting has gone away. Anecdotal and not very scientific, I know, but I do think the lower phosphate level (and the set dosage) in the action pacs is a major cause of spotting when the water hardness increases on a seasonal basis.

 

[supersuds]

That's odd. My experience is the opposite. With powders -- whether Cascade, Finish, or Sunlight -- there will almost always be a couple of pieces of silverware that are spotted, where they touch the side of the silverware basket or another utensil. This never happens with any of the gel or action pacs, except for Target's Up & Up.

Thanks for all the info about the built in water softeners! Fascinating stuff.