CR detergent tests update

[DADoES]

 
Dad subscribed to CR.  I established online access after his death to check details of the subscription.  It expired with the 11/2023 issue.  They automatically renew (go figure) pending receipt of payment, which I'm not renewing it.  They've gone goofy with dunning emails asking where's the payment, what's the problem?  LOL.

Anyway, an email this morning references an update on detergent ratings.  A section about how detergents are tested says cool water is used because today's washers are designed for it, and [color=ff0000]hot water has high mineral content[/color] that "reduces the effectiveness of some detergents."  Is that a legitimate claim about hot water being higher in mineral content than cold water?

(Kirkland UltraClean liquid is best value.  Kirkland Ultra Clean Free & Clear liquid best for baby clothes.  Persil ProClean Sensitive Skin liquid best for sensitive skin, although costly.  Persil ProClean Stain Fighter liquid best for tough stains.  Tide Plus Ultra Stain Release liquid best for hard water.  Tide Hygienic Clean Heavy Duty 10X and Tide Ultra Oxi with Odor Eliminators are best pod products.  Worst are Sun Triple Clean liquid, Arm & Hammer 4-in-1 Power Paks, and Era 3X Oxibooster liquid.)

 

[fisherpaykel]

hot water higher mineral content?

I would call baloney on that, the water supplying your cold line and water heater is the same supply, wouldn't some mineral content if present precipitate out or otherwise collect on the hot parts of a gas tank's flue or electric heater's element thus hot actually having less mineral content? I am no water scientist but neither is the twit who wrote that, I could believe hot could more quickly dissolve minerals than cold, i.e. salt in cold versus hot glass of water but your water heater is not adding additional minerals.More of Consumer Reports agenda to have everyone wash in water barely warmer than cold.

Just a thought, maybe if you had a water softener connected only to your hot water tank then possibly yes but anyway salt isn't a concern to laundry and is in some detergents anyway. Launderess, can you shed some light on this?

 

[launderess]

" hot water has high mineral content"

Actually yes, this is true.

EPA and others long have advised not drinking, cooking or otherwise consuming hot water. Anyone who has worked on or otherwise knows about steam or hot water heating can tell you what color water is in their boilers.

Hot water picks up more dissolved solids than cold. It's one of reasons hot water tanks or boilers need to be flushed out periodically, to get rid of all that schmutz that settles in tank or boiler.

Depending upon local water supply things may look clear enough, but there are reasons why washing machines have filters on both hot and cold water intake.

https://www.hydroviv.com/blogs/wate...fs & Food Writers: “,reduce the water a lot.”

https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/48741/minerals-in-water-solidify-when-heated

 

[launderess]

Persil Pro Clean Sensitive formula is more difficult to find than a virgin at a prison rodeo.

Amazon has it (naturally) but price is rather steep. Otherwise not all local shops that stock Persil Pro Clean carry sensitive version.

https://www.amazon.com/Persil-ProClean-Detergent-Sensitive-Concentrated/dp/B084W6QQQV

As for mineral content of local tap water "reduces the effectiveness of some detergents" my guess is this has much to do with near dominance of liquid format products.

Powder laundry detergents of old had various builder systems ranging from including phosphates and other substances that could cope with hard water. Liquid products today OTOH while of course containing things to deal with mineral content of water seem to rely largely upon surfactants to do that job.

It of course varies by detergent, with top shelf product offerings from say Tide or Persil likely to perform better than middle or bottom shelf products. Many liquid laundry detergents at latter two ranges are largely water and not very sophisticated chemical formula.

 

[me]

Hot tap water reportedly contains more dissolved metals from the plumbing, presumably a bigger issue if the water is acidic. Hot water supply is not considered potable in the UK either, partly risk of bacteria and metals and contaminates from boiler, or cylinder.

I think enzymes in most detergent are typically supposed to work best around 30 - 40°C, and oxygen bleach containing TAED (found ia bit higher.

Here in the UK, Persil have recently been promoting their new capsules, for quick and cold washes, possibly expecting to gain market share off the back of our high electricity prices.

 

[ryner1988]

There's something to be said for the Tide Ultra Oxi with Odor Eliminators coming out on top in the pod formation. I use both the liquid and pod version of this. After several rounds of trial-and-error with different detergents, this one seems to work the best for me. I think it smells nice without being overpowering, and it seems to get stains out with little or no pretreating work from me, which is great because being visually impaired I don't always know that an item is stained beforehand. Plus, a bottle of this lasts forever and the pods are great too because you only need one for a large load.

Ryne

 

[petek]

It's getting harder and harder to find Persil in the grocery stores and it has me wondering if they're going to pull the pin one of these days . Plus I don't see any tv ads anymore. I buy it mainly because, for one, it works as good as Tide products, and secondly because it isn't a P&G product who just have too much sway and need some competition.
I just bought a 4.43 liter/ 1 gal jug of Persil ProClean Cold water formula which works well even though I use warm water and it was only $17.99 Cdn at Walmart. I don't get why Amazon charges so much for laundry detergent because they're more in line on dishwasher detergent it seems

 

[angus]

CR also didn't test any powders - the recent print issue had a letter to the editor asking for their rationale. CR's response was that they tested products that most people buy and since powders are no longer popular, they didn't bother with them. I'm paraphrasing of course, but that was the gist of the message. Apparently they don't know about this website (LOL). This is why I continue to stockpile Tide with Bleach Powder - based on the way things are going, I figure it's only a matter of time before that disappears, like the Tide Free and Gentle Powder. At this point, "All" is the only Free and Gentle powder available(at least in my area) and only at Walmart.

Most of my local supermarkets really carry almost nothing in powder formats. Maybe Original Tide powder or an occasional box of Gain, but that's it. Persil liquids are also almost non existent and are generally relegated to the bottom shelf in the supermarkets. Still widely available at Walmart (but not at Target) - though availability of the Sensitive formula is pretty limited. While that version was never in Stop&Shop, ShopRite, Acme or Big Y, it used to be in every Walmart. Now it's hit or miss...

 

[gelaundry4ever]

cold washing

Cold washing of everything is just stupid. All this does is cause problems. Why don't you see dishwashers washing in cold water?

 

[DADoES]

 
Jerome, think reasonably about dishwashers and clothes washers.  Dishwashers must handle much more volume of greasy soils than clothes washers.  Dishwashers have one inlet valve/solenoid and are connected to a single water supply source which normally is hot.  Adding another valve solenoid, another supply hose, and user choice for hot, cold, or warm water would add complexity.

That being said, some dishwasher brands/models with assured onboard water heating can be connected to a cold supply although the machine will then heat it.

 

[launderess]

"That being said, some dishwasher brands/models with assured onboard water heating can be connected to a cold supply although the machine will then heat it."

Not sure about models sold in USA, but plenty of dishwashers in Europe are cold fill only. But as with washing machine's we're talking about 240v appliances with more than enough oomph to take even coldest tap water to temps at or over 140 degrees F quite quickly.

Benefit of having cooler water available is same reasons as one pre-washes or pre-soaks in cool or cold water. That or washing machines that are cold fill only and heat water to desired temp. Hot and certainly near boiling water will set protein based soils. Rinsing dishes in cooler water first gives a chance to prevent this instead of blasting things with hot water from start.

Though suppose unless taps are run before DW is started to bleed out cooler water first wash (pre-wash) is going to be with cooler water anyway.

 

[me]

Both dishwasher's I've owned could optionally be connected to the hot water supply. As I recall, you just needed to replace the cold fill hose on one of them with one that can withstand hot water. (One was an Hotpoint, which was made by Bosch, the current is a Bosch).

I only have mine on the cold supply because as it has a mechanical timer (it's over 20 years old), using hot fill would shorten the washing time and reviews stated that resulted in it cleaning less well.

Nearly all washing machines sold in the UK these days are cold fill only, the reason given by manufacturer's was that given the length of pipe in a typical home, the machine would have drawn in enough water before the hot water reached it. I think at the time it was actually more to do with the saving in not supplying a second hose, one fewer solenoid valve and one less triac, but with the amount of water used on an economy wash on recent machines, it is probably now true.

Also, I've read that one advantage of cold fill in washing machines if using a powder, is the enzymes in the powder have time to do its stuff before the water gets hot enough for the activated oxygen bleach to take over, which will also break down enzymes.

 

[launderess]

"Also, I've read that one advantage of cold fill in washing machines if using a powder, is the enzymes in the powder have time to do its stuff before the water gets hot enough for the activated oxygen bleach to take over, which will also break down enzymes."

Well yes one could do that (a profile wash). But there are other ways as well.

Taking a page from industrial/commercial laundries and indeed how wash day was done via hand or semi-automatic machines, one simply could pre-wash or soak in cool or warm water. This would give enzymes a chance to do their work while also preventing soils and marks from being set by starting out with too hot water.

Following all that pre-washing or soaking things go into the main wash with machine filling with hot water from taps. Most three dial front loaders of old sold in Europe (think Miele, Asko, etc...) could do this. Of course that pre wash or soak uses water which dings energy savings. This also allows for faster cycle times as one isn't waiting about for washer to raise temps from cold to hot or boiling.

That being said many European and other washers nowadays have a "stain" option. This changes wash profile to prolong "warm" water stage before washer goes onto heating water to hot or boil. Machine also dispenses "stain removal" product at supposed optimal time in cycle.

Neither of my AEG washers like it when incoming tap water is too warm much less hot. Wash cycle will finish sooner and display suddenly shaves of 10 or more minutes from time remaining. AEG dealer/repair service warned one off doing this as it "confuses" the washer.

However there are times such as during warm weather or when boilers are making steam for heat that cold tap water is about 90 degrees F. Again neither of the Lavamats like it, but what can one do?

 

[DADoES]

 
DishDrawers are advised to be on a hot supply per the install instructions but they will work on cold, which makes them conducive for RVs and yachts and such that may have limited hot water supply.  The main wash and final rinse are always heated to specific temps per the selected cycle/options (unless that has changed on the newest revisions), time extended as necessary to reach the targets.  Mine has been on largely a cold connection for 18+ years.  I keep the tankless at 103°F for showering, raising it if needed for other tasks which doesn't include the dishwasher.  I sometimes run the sink to a warmed flow in winter months, much less apt to do so in summer.  DD603 fills are 0.8 gal.  It takes 1.8 gals to get the beginnings of a heated flow at the sink at 103°F setpoint, I measured a few mins ago.

 

[combo52]

Household hot water temperature recommendations

You should not keep your domestic hot water supply under 130°F, doing so greatly increases the risk of legionnaires disease growing inside your hot water line, showerhead, faucet, etc.

Hi Glenn, you might be able to minimize the risk with your instantaneous system. If you periodically turn it up to 130 or more and flush all the lines for a while with really hot water. I’m not sure how often you have to do this, however. But it’s something I would look into.

John