Cutlery Basket vs. Cutlery Drawer

[mrboilwash]

My Mother recently got a new Bosch dishwasher due to a product recall because of a possible fire hazard. In Germany this particular recall gives you a choice of either a free repair or a 20% discount on any new DW from the BSH group. Since hers was a little over ten years old it seemed the discount was the better deal.

The new DW has a cutlery drawer which is very nice to load and unload, but her flatware looks terrible now. There is always a whitish film at the bottom of each piece where the water collects - runs off.
I`ve tried to adjust the amount of rinse aid from 3 to 5 (factory setting) which is an insane amount in my opinion, but still no improvement.
I wonder if it could be so bad because she only uses the Auto 45°-65° cycle and she is one of those women who couldn`t put a dirty dish into a dish washer ever.
Everything gets pre rinsed to perfection before loading.

So I thought maybe there are not enough water changings and the whitish film could be detergent residue ?

Or is it a common problem with cutlery drawers ? I mean what is the point of the drawer if you have to polish your flatware ?

Thank God my 12 years old DW (with cutlery basket) wasn`t part of the recall. Not sure if I would opt for one with a drawer if I had to buy a new one now.

 

[rp2813]

No problems like that with our Miele.  We have fairly hard water here and I bumped down the amount of rinse aid dispensed to 1ml very soon after we installed the machine, yet I still get good results.   I use the "Normal" cycle, which automatically heats the water to Miele's specifications, all the time.  Since last August when the machine was installed, I've used the "Pots and Pans" cycle only once.

 

I'm not familiar with the Bosch machines, but our Miele has a third small wash arm at the top of the tub that's specific to the cutlery tray/rack.  Perhaps that makes a difference?

 

[glenfieldmathk1]

I have heard many positive reviews about Bosch's cutlery drawer, and also experienced several, and all have no white marks left at the end of the cycle.
However these machines sensors are designed to adjust the cycle depending on the dirt level during the initial phase, it will then decide if its going to drain (making it a pre-rinse), or just continue through to washing. It could be that as she's pre-washing everything the machine is detecting no plates, or lightly soiled load, and switching to the 45C less intensive wash? I would try loading up the dishwasher with dirty plates and cutlery and see if the problem is sorted.

Has she thoroughly rinsed the detergent of the pre- hand washed plates before placing inside (as it could be residue caused by washing up liquid).
You mention yours using rinse aid, are you using salt? (could it be hard water area residue).
Is there a build up under the bottom basket somewhere?
Maybe your using too much rinseaid, maybe reduce (not increase) - these machines only use very small amount of water, they dont need lots in.

 

[henene4]

Intesive drying!

There should be an option called "intensive drying", either as an option or an programmable feature which raises the final rinse temp by 3° C and adds 2 mins to the drying phase. Could help.
Next, be sure you programmed the water softner correctly. We had ours run to low what caused simmilar things on glassware.
Reducing the rinseaid dosage is a good point, glenfieldmathk1.
Next, may try another cycle like intesive or eco. May help either.
Or another detergent (happend to us either).
Or, in the end, just get an old cuttlery basket. May be not the best, but if nothing helps, I guess it is better than refinishing all the cuttlery again...

 

[mich]

If the water usage has been messed with...

Like they have been here in America, she probably needs to look for another detergent. Lower Water Usage machines, now need special detergents with "extra shine" and "rinse aid" bulit in. Powders & Liquids, and Gels, just don't work so hot in them. Like I said, I'm sure hers is really different, but, I think an "All in 1" or "Tablet/Monodose" Product, may work better for her. 

 

It's my understanding that Finish Quantum, has polishing agents. Somat Tablets might also be a great choice. Try to look for a phosphated based detergent, as what she is experiencing is typically limescale, and phosphates do wonders on conditioning that. Also, try turning on the "sani-rinse" or "heated rinse" and the upping the rinse aid dispenser for better results. 

 

If you notice any streaks, or crap, after upping the rinse aid, turn it down and find a good middling point. 3/4 is normally good for most water conditions. 

 

[logixx]

Yes, running a soil-sensing cycle with a clean load is not a good idea, in my opinion. The auto cycle will then use as little as seven liters (or six, if the dishwasher has Water Management). Maybe she should use just a little bit of powder or even gel, if she just uses the dishwasher to rinse the dishes.

Alex

 

[iheartmaytag]

have to ask the obvious question

If she's already washed them, why not just put dishes and cutlery away in the cabinet and save the energy, detergent and bother of loading the dishwasher?

 

[mrboilwash]

Thanks for your input guys, everyone`s is very much appreciated !

Have to explain that my mother is 74 years old and very stubborn. She has her own ways and oppinions when it comes to houshold chores, so it`s pointless to try to change her.

The detergent she uses ATM is "Lidl W5 All in one Tabs". Very good stuff, loaded with phosphates, I use them myself. There is also salt and rinse aid in the machine, both on factory setting as she wanted it to have. Salt is on setting #4 and should be OK for our water conditions. Rinse aid is now on 5 ml. I told her I get perfect results with 1 ml, but she still wanted it on #5.
There is no little spray arm on top, just a nozzle.
My initial hunch was also that the machine uses too little water in the automatic cycle when washing almost clean dishes.
The problem is that she already loves this cycle because it does not take forever.

Will give my best to get her to switch to the standard 50° cycle maybe with speed perfect option and see if things improve.

 

[henene4]

Which model does she actually own? Just curious...

 

[washer111]

Over the Christmas break, I had the chance to use a machine with and without the Cutlery Draw. 

 

I didn't experience the filming problem you describe, but I didn't appreciate the piece-by-piece loading, or lowered flexibility in the lower racks from the room that this takes up. 

 

As for the filming issue you describe - I imagine this is not because of a temperature problem, but rather a detergent problem. If the water is hard, and she doesn't have phosphate detergent, the residue may be the pre-rinsed plates causing some etching, and leaving film *everywhere* else that it doesn't etch. 

If you can, please try to get your mother OUT of the pre-rinsing/washing/scrubbing habit, since it is a waste of resources, is completely un-necessary and only only ends up RUINING your plates, cups, mugs, glasses. 

 

[mrboilwash]

I don`t know, have to check out which model next time I vistit my parents.
We bought it from Media Markt, it was on sale for €499.- minus the 20% rebate.
Just a MOL undercounter model with stainless steel front (and tank), 42 dB, A++ rating.

I also don`t think it`s a temperature problem, I think it`s a not enough water problem.
Will consider everyone`s suggestions but as I said she has her own ways.
She is a perfectionist in many ways but she also doesn`t seem to be as bothered by the cutlery as I am.

[this post was last edited: 4/15/2014-17:35]

 

[logixx]

I'd just change the rinse aid setting quietly. My grandma is 90 and she won't use the 1.400 rmp spin on her Miele washer because she says clothes come out too dry... only to put everything in the dryer once the wash is done. What's the logic behind that?

I use speedPerfect almost all the time - cycles take 65 to 90 minutes and the results are relly good. If she already likes the auto cycle, maybe try to convince her to add the speed option. It will still adapt somewhat to the soil conditions but use more water than without speedPerfect.

Alex

 

[mrboilwash]

Had a chance to secretly take a picture of a knife today and suggested to give the standard 50° cycle a try as it should use a little more water. Not sure if she will follow my advice.

@ henene4 model no. is SMU68M85EU/74

 

[rolls_rapide]

Too much rinse aid!

I had recently changed my rinse aid from Finish to Fairy, which is a bit thicker. I noticed small white residues on the glassware, where the water would have dripped off the sloping surfaces.

I reduced the rinse aid dosage to the minimum setting, but left the water softener at the factory setting of "4". This seems to have done the trick.

Also, I note that UK Lidl's "All-in-One" W5 detergent is phosphate free.

 

[rolls_rapide]

I forgot to say...

If you're using "All-in-One" combination detergents in a modern Bosch, you have to be aware that the machine WILL automatically sense the combination detergent and adapt the rinsing cycles accordingly. Having the rinse aid setting too high will add to the problem, i.e. excessive rinse aid from the tablet and the dispenser injector, and reduced water in the rinses.

Bosch also say in their user manuals that best results are achieved using separate detergent, salt and rinse aid (what they call "Solo" detergents).

 

[mrboilwash]

Will do my best to convince her to have the rinse aid reduced.
I totally agree the factory setting must be way too much.
I have mine on the lowest setting as well and get great results along with All in 1 Tabs.
On the other hand I find it very strange that there is no soapy rainbow colored film on her dishes at all with all that rinse aid. It`s only the white stuff on cutlery.

Very interesting that you mention Lidl All in 1 in the UK is phosphate free.
Does it at least look similar to what we get ?

 

[mrboilwash]

Still more than 30% phosphates...

 

[rolls_rapide]

Yes, the box is still the same angular shape, same tablet drawing. We don't have the hairdryer drawing. The box has "phosphate free" as a statement on the front. I don't have a box to hand - I tend to tip boxes of tablets into a Finish tin box which came with Powerball tablets, years ago.

The W5 tablets actually clean quite well in my mum's 2013 Bosch.

I still find that Finish Liquid-Gel removes tea stains best of all, due to the chlorine bleach. It probably also keeps the optical turbidity sensor in my 2003 Bosch clear of staining too.

 

[mrboilwash]

Update

Turning the rinse aid down to setting #3 did not show any visible improvement.
But I had a chance to try out the standard Eco 50° cycle and wow, there was a huge difference.

My Mother also kept the old cutlery basket from her former Bosch just in case she would not like the drawer. Last time I visited she proudly showed it to me installed although it does not fit well into the new bottom rack. She said she got sick of searching her reading glasses just to load some flatware.

She still prefers the automatic cycle and I gave up to talk her out of prerinsing.
She explained she wouldn`t tolerate the smell of rotten food in her kitchen and I respect her point of view.