Dishwasher on cold water!

[dustin92]

I have noticed that some friends of ours have a GE Nautilus dishwasher that has been it their house for at least 4 years (they rent and have been there 4 years) that has never cleaned overly well, despite being run on heavy wash with every option selected. I was helping with the dishes last week and had started the dishwasher when I noticed a coffee cup that had been left out. I looked and it was just before the main wash, so I unlatched the door and put the cup in. The water was ice cold and I had run the hot water before starting it. They use those awful cascade action packs and the dishwasher sounds as if something is clogged up. I am suprised the dishes come as clean as they do. Everything is pre rinsed. I was wondering if there is any reason to tell them to have their landlord fix it, or just leave things alone?

 

[nmassman44]

Methinks that who ever installed the dishwasher put it on the wrong water line. Those dishwashers are not made for a cold water connection like a euro machine. I know with my Miele I can do a cold connection and in fact it loves a lower temp. I had set our water heater to have 145 degree water at the tap but my dishwasher didn't like it and I got error codes and it would kill the cycle and one code said to call for service. Since I lowered the water temp to 120 no issues at all. I will raise the water heater temp when I do laundry and then dial it down again when I am done.
But the GE machine should be on hot water line. The hotter the better.

 

[spankomatic]

I would tell them. It would be up to them then if they want to contact the landlord to have it fixed.

 

[petek]

agreed. Tell them and it's up to them to mention it to the landlord.. You think they would have clued in though but then again some people are totally witless about such things.

 

[washer111]

Doesn't a DW Heat Water

I know you're apparently supposed to use hot water for the dishwasher in the US, but WHY?

Modern machines HEAT the water don't they, or are the heaters rigged up so they don't work below 120F, so they can con you into a "repair job"?

It seems stupid the machine doesn't pause for longer to allow the water to heat...

 

[jamiel]

No, North American machines almost universally are hot-fill. We've got large storage water heaters (gas or electric or oil-fired) with plenty of capacity, (roughly 40 gallon capacity is standard) and only 120v electricity; so hot is the norm here.

 

[chris74]

Does this mean...

...US dishwashers don't have internal heating? I saw many pictures of them and most had the heating element unhidden in the tub...

 

[washer111]

IN Australia

We have large hot water storage tanks, and we heat water via THE SUN, yet we don't use hot connections on dishwashers.

Why? We probably use the lower temp cycles more often, so having 50C water doesn't help for a 45C Delicate cycle...

But really, WHY must US models be hot fill? Surely a few minutes on top of the 2+ hours taken won't hurt that much. Machines should be made UNIVERSAl, to be used on either connection. If you have hot water right there on tap (turn on tap and there is hot water right away almost), then use Hot, otherwise, with lengthy pipe runs, its pointless, and basically wastes energy - maybe that's why the OP's friend's machine is on cold, since the storage tank is "too far away" for it to be practical.

I can't understand why the US machines can't heat their water!!! ("ERROR Code 1: Water temp too low: Water heater disabled for money wasting purposes!")

 

[combo52]

Hot Water Fill DWs

 US DWs are designed to be connected only to a hot water line, DWs built since the early 1980s are all designed to run on incoming water temps as low as 120 degrees [ in some cases the user must select the correct cycle ] and all have booster heat.

 

We sometimes see cases where the machine inadvertently gets connected to the cold water supply or I have also seen cases where the installer thought that was the correct way to install the DW LOL. If I were the tenant I would insist that the landlord fix the plumbing.

 

I cannot believe that homes with solar water heaters would connect the DW to a cold water supply, that makes zero since if you have virtually free hot water to burn coal to generate expensive electricity and use that for heating the water to wash dishes. In the US the majority of homes have Natural Gas water heaters so again it makes more sence to use hot water from the water heater and let the DW do a slight boost rather than heating all the water the DW uses with expensive electricity. We now have the option of heat-pump water heaters here for folks that have to use electricity or oil to heat their hot water and of coerce Solar Water heaters are sometimes an option.

 

[jerrod6]

US DW heating their own water would cause the Energy Star police to have a heart attack.  They would end up giving the machine a lower energy rating.  Never mind that the energy was still consumed by an external water heater they are not rating the heater they are rating the DW.

 

[logixx]

Ditto on what Jerrod says. This is also the reason why the Normal cycle on Miele US dishwashers does two prerinses - so that the dishload is sufficiently preheated by hot tap water before the (electrically) heated wash begins.

Also makes me wonder why Bosch doesn't finally introduce heat exchangers in their US line-up. This would help to compensate for the heat loss in the hot water line that occurs between the wash fill and the rinse fill.

Alex

 

[washer111]

Energy Star having a heart attack? Bull!

Our models have heated water for years, and the government is more than happy for this to happen. Most manufacturers simply have the machine standard's tested on the Eco cycle, which generally uses less the 400KW/h per year. Our DD uses 263KW/h per year when connected to 20C water and is used once per day on Normal Eco, but, since we have ours connected to dodgy solar hot water (despite warm nights, its never hot in the morning, and I have to "fill up the heating loop" every weekend to have hot water), and the normal water temp is more than that, we probably use less energy on this cycle, especially if I waste water running the tap hot first .

I've noticed that Asko model's have a temperature button used to alter the temperature of the wash, and somehow this button can be used to achieve two pre washes and 1 main wash!

 

[pierreandreply4]

me i use the cascade packs and they work better for cleaning than any liquid and sometime certain dishwasher models for the heater to activate they need a jump start i have a kenmore elite dishwasher the cycle i use is smart wash option turbozone high temp for wash on the first start as my dishwasher sense the load it also heats the water my mom in her summer home has a bosch dishwasher and in order for the heater to quick in she runs the hot water from the sink for at least 20 minutes then start the dishwasher and maybe the dishwasher your friend has was link by mistake to the cold water line of the sink or the heater might be defective depending on the year.

 

[jerrod6]

Washer111 you are living under a different government with different energy expectations.  Perhaps the most efficient way to heat is with solar, next to that it may be by having each appliance only heat the water it is going to use.

 

But in the USA we have never had this.  Instead we have separate water heaters that heat 30 to 60 gallons of water and then keep it on standby in case we may use it.  With the Energy star program each appliance is rated on the amount of electricity it uses, so if an appliance is going to use electricity to heat water to a high temp that appliance is going to be rated as lower, as not buy, and the manufacturer will not get tax credits for selling the most effiicent machine.

 

KWH per year:  for 2012 the  USA Energy Star guideline  for DW is no more than 365 KWH per year.  If it fails this the manufacturer will not get a tax credit.  So you can guess they are going to try to best this usage.

 

So it is the case that many Dw sold in the USA explicitly state that the incoming water to the DW must be at least 120F.  On some cycles that are designed to heat the water to higher temps, after a certain amount of time has passed the heater just shuts off even if the target temperature has not been reached.   This is also why many DW sold today only heat water to  105F on their normal cycle.  So lets see,  water must be 120F to enter, and the DW only heats to 105F so the manufacturer expects the Dw to NOT HEAT any water and this is how they achieve their good energy rating.  Never mind it's not real world.

 

In my case I have a whole house tankless water heater that heats the water as it passes through, but I also have a very long pipe run through an unheated basement from the heater to the kitchen or any bathrooms, so by the time the DW gets the water it is not 120F it is cooler.  My saving is that I have a 2006 Miele DW that actually can be connected to cold water and can heat heat to 170F on some cycles.  That was 2006 with the normal cycle doing two prewashes before the wash so as  to get the water hot(which I why I never use the normal cycle),  this is 2012...who knows what is going on now  and I think 2013 will have even more restrictive standards.  At some time we have to reach an end point with this crap.

 

[dustin92]

I'm sure it is connected to the cold water line by mistake, the kitchen sink faucet is backwards too (hot on the right, cold on the left). We can't use the cascade pacs because they leave a horrible white residue on everything and don't clean worth a crap. We use the finish quantum pacs and they are awesome. I did check during the main wash and the water heater must be working because the water got up to maybe 110-115 degrees.

 

[launderess]

Not Wishing To Sound Racist Or Like Suzanne SugarBaker

But switched hot and cold water connections are rampant any where or time Mexican or certain other immigrants from South America do the work. Dont know why but it happens all the time.

When we had our kitchen sink and other areas redone the contractor brought in all "day labour" Mexican help and sure enough when one went to use the kitchen sink left was "cold" and right was "hot". Since then have spoken to many other persons in our area and they say it happened to them as well under the same circumstances.

The next plumbers hired (to put in the gas range) were from Poland and when we asked if they could correct the "error", they chuckled into their sleeves and were happy to oblige. One said he sees it all the time.

Now one is not sure if taps are connected differently south of the border or what, but other than than cannot understand why this happens.

 

[spankomatic]

We can't use the cascade pacs because they leave a horri

I had the same experience with them...

 

[washer111]

Energy star is obviously a JOKE! "When you buy your next home, INSIST on an "Energy Star" home - one with crappy dishwashers that can only heat their water to 100ºF when using a cold supply, to help save energy!"

We just have a "stars" system, which, whilst somewhat misleading in the refrigerator and television department (because of different styles or technology, the scale is different), it works better than "Energy Star Rated" products. Our energy labels state how much energy is used each when a product is used in certain conditions - water wise, electricity wise, gas wise, we get the generic 'star rating" and the actual consumption figure, which is what I always look at - since for fridges, the scale for the stars is different (a 6 star side by side fridge is less efficient than en equal capacity upside-down model)

I'll make an assumption here and say that most Australians have a style of storage water heating. But since our energy departments have always encouraged "washing in cold water' (Yes, even though most of us use Solar heated water), or connecting dishwashers to cold water (not mentioned, actually), the only hot water used might be by manual dishwashers or for your own bathing purposes - so we waste money heating say 300L of water, where the most used is generally only 150L for the worst shower offenders!

With many FL machines heating their water I think people in the US should insist [that horrible again] to the substandard local product manufacturers that their machines be able to take COLD incoming water - since many houses today I bet are built with water heater on the other end of the planet (just about, anyway!)

Or maybe, you could just buy European models which heat their own water. I know the Asko machines wouldn't get a good water rating here (base model, anyway), since it uses 16L for the "government" test cycle (Prewash, Wash, 2 Rinses) and 18L for the Normal "High Temp Option" cycle with 2 pre washes, but european's know how to do things the right way, the first time (no offence to Americans, but your Dishwashers really are "lagging behind the times")

Thats all I have to say... Whether people agree or not is their opinion. Personally, dishwasher's should be connected to hot water where it is heated in a environmentally friendly manner (solar, heat pump, geothermal or maybe gas), otherwise, give it a cold connection!

 

[ozzie908]

Cold water only !

I have never encountered a hot fill DW in the UK since the catering ones that are made to be connected to hot to help with recovery times.

All domestic machines have been cold fill only as most houses modern ones especially have no Hot Water storage tanks installed.
Even in my old house where I am now the hot water tank has been removed and a Combi gas boiler heats the water on demand and the heating. For some strange reason they fitted it upstairs so any hot water required in the kitchen you have to draw off 8 litres before it gets warm as my dishdrawer only uses 7 litre per cycle connecting it to hot would waste water and yes here too we are metered so use the correct amount of cold water heat only whats needed same as the washing machine and that is that pay for what you use only far better. I am also of the opinion that cold water DW wash just as well as they wash longer to heat the water I use the normal cycle and it take 1 hr 42 mins the process is a cold pre wash followed by a 55c main wash a cold rinse then a 65c hot rinse that does the drying. The DW also has lower temp washes for delicate items like cut glass etc which would be impossible to achieve with hot intake.
I in no way wish to insult/offend anyone from anywhere as I know our electricity being 230volt makes it easier to heat the water in the machine.

Austin

 

[washer111]

Sorry to be a little stupid but...

How does voltage affect the water heating capability? Is there less "oomph" available to drive the heating element.

Which leads me to ask, would you burn out a US electric heater by running it on 240v?

 

[ozzie908]

Simple answer is..

Yes a USA heater plugged into UK power would fry in seconds. On the other hand if you plugged a UK into a US socket it would not even glow and most likely blow the breaker. Also aren't the Hertz different we have 50 and US is 60 ??? Not sure about that one though.

Austin

 

[jerrod6]

The appliances in the USA are not made to run on 220V.  We have 110 or 120 which is half of what you have.  There is history to this decision and it goes way back and not going to get into if the decision was wise or not.

 

So we start off with less power to heat  anything quicky to a higher temp by electricity.  Houses and flats here are not made to accomodate 220V for appliances except for perhaps a dryer and even here I think I read that some cities banned the use of 220V in houses.

 

Miele used to sell 220V washers in the USA.  I have one and yes it is fast when starting from a cold fill and heating to 190F,  but I had to pay to have special electric run to the machine. Miele now does not sell 220V washers in the USA because people would not pay to have a line run, and  depending on where you live you may not even be allowed to run 220V into your living area, so now Miele only sells 120V machines and yes they do not heat as high as the 220V machines can. 

 

If you plugged any standard purchase USA  appliance(except an electric stove or dryer) into 220V the electrical components would evaporate within 3 seconds.  The odd thing is that I have 220V running my oven, Central Air and Washer so there is 220V coming into the house, just not running through it.

 

Yes I think the Hertz are different, so when USA citizens travel to other countries we have to bring along power converters to convert volts/watts/hertz - sometimes different ones for each country we visit.

 

My personal preference would be to have 220V for everthing  but that is not going to happen  anytime soon in the USA.

 

 

 

[DADoES]

 
My dishwasher bought 9 years ago (8 years 10 months) is rated for 367 kWh/year.  I have the EnergyGuide tag.  The scale on the tag ranges from 312 kWh to 573.  The installation instructions direct for a 120°F water supply.  The Normal cycle heats to 140°F wash and 150°F rinse.  Selecting the reduced-energy option cuts the heating to 125°F.  On-board water heating always functions if the fill temp is less than the target, there's no way to disable it.  The tag does not state which cycle was used for the EnergyGuide rating.  I run on what is essentially a tap-cold water supply.  It may reach 90°F when the line is purged after two or three fills, but nowhere near 120°F.

 

[logixx]

Many Euro dishwasher manufacturers now heavily endorse connecting their machines to hot water. Miele even claims it to be a feature of their dishwashers, calling it ThermoSave. Technically, most dishwasher can be connected to hot water with some models being the exception. These would be dishwashers that use cold water for condensation drying, which basically includes most European Bosch units. Some of them now have an option to select in case of a hot water hook-up, which probably alters the drying portion of the cycle.

Alex

 

[launderess]

IIRC Hertz/Frequency

Really only comes into play if the appliance also has a motor and or today computer/electronic controls. Older European appliances that had mechanical timers were brougth to these shores and apparently used (if those that show up on eBay and elsewhere are any judge), with little to nil effect. That being said one assumes some motors are more sensitive to being used at faster or slower frequency than listed on the rating plate. There is also many appliances right through the 1970's or so were designed with motors that could run on 50hz or 60hz.

Miele USA once explained to us why American appliances designed for 220v cannot run on "European" power of the same voltage and often vice versa. Much of it has to do with how Americans get their 220v power (two 120v lines) versus Europe (a single 220v line and neutral (IIRC)).

Then there is also many American appliances even if rated for 220v have parts that run on 120v power so need both.

On the otherside European appliances that require 220v power can often be run off American 220v system,again if the frequency difference does not cause problems. You can even run them off a voltage converter (step-up 120v to 220v) long as the total power draw does not exceed the rating for the converter and circut the power is being drawn from.

Awhile back a company in Canada (EuroLine) sold AEG washing machines and dryers to the North American market. Though they ran on strict 220v/50hz power Euroline provided installation directions (they shipped the things south to the USA,one had to take things from there)and IIRC posts over on THS/Appliance forum more than a few were sold and the units worked fine.

My Pfaff ironer was brought to these shores from Europe by the previous owner's mother and used until the day we made the purchase. It was connected to and has an American 220v "dryer" plug. We had a serviceman frm Germany out a few years ago (don't ask, long story) and he showed us how to adjust the roller speed to compensate for the faster rotation caused by using a 50hz appliance on 60hz. Have had the unit for over ten years now and it works perfectly fine. Pulls nearly 3000 watts of heating/steam producing power, but ....

EU/UK laundry and dishwashing appliances and cold water:

One reason for 220v or even 408v power grid being built for homes in that area of the world was mainly because it was a given laundry and later dishwashing appliances would have to heat their own water. Indeed for much of modern history hot water is provided for such areas by instant heaters located near or in the kitchen, bath or where required. Contrast this with the United States where central boilers/hot water tanks supply homes and buildings with heated water.

It was also far easier to retro-fit many of the old (if not down right ancient)housing stock with electrical wiring for either appliances or water heaters as opposed to running hot water pipes from a central water heating system.

Boil washing didn't start being attacked/dying out in Europe/UK until around the 1970's or so with the "energy crisis". Until then it simply was a given housewives wanted that feature on their washing machines, so the power had to be there to provide.

Finally here is allot of debate on how it is more efficient for a washing machine or dishwasher to heat it's own water versus using that from a central supply. This is not always so and depends upon many factors.

Before safety and other concerns caused water heater temp changes here in the USA, it was quite common to get water >140F or even 160F from tanked or tankless hot water systems. Rudd and others advertised this feature for housewives showing all the new modern appliances (dishwashers, washing machines etc...) that required lots of hot water, but the supply also had to be great so His Nibbs and the children could take their baths.

Depending upon costs of heating the water and other factors such as temperature loss due to distance travelled, it is not always cheaper to have an appliance that can heat tap cold water to warm, hot or boiling.

Consider also with modern enzyme and bleach laden dishwashing and laundry detergents much of the argument for starting from tap cold water and heating to warm or hot is lost.

Blood amoung other substances that create stains is actually set when exposed to cold water. Commercial laundries use warm water (with or without alkaline chemicals) to flush such stained laundry before it is washed. Such places at least on this side of the pond also use several changes of wash water at temps ranging from 100F to over 150F that occur so quickly there wouldn't be time to heat water unless one uses some very powerful heating elements (steam fed washers for instance).

Keep in mind that while a washer or dishwasher is heating that water the detergent is already working. When this heating time is added to the actual wash time you'll often find things are clean long before the set temp is reached or shortly afterwards. In the case of laundry the remaning time is simply beating the wash back and forth.

 

[combo52]

American Voltage

Folks get it right there is NO 220 volts anywhere in North America, we have 120-240 60 hertz or 120-208. Europe has 220 50 hertz I believe [ I am not the expert there ] Laundress it is silly to say we have 120 here and that the two lines add up to 220, a second grader can add better than that LOL.

 

[spankomatic]

I have 110 and 220 here in Ukiah,CA  110+110 = 220

 

[launderess]

@Combo

My typing either lagged behind or ahead of my reason. Was thinking of "110v".

But as you say a second grader can do sums better than that.

 

[arbilab]

120 and 240 are the majority metro US standard. Many utilities bump up to 125/250, it marginally reduces their I/R loss on reactive (motor) loads. Rural runs may sag down to 115 or less. Rural light bulbs last longer.

One legend says Europe chose the 50Hz standard thinking the generator bearings would last 1/6 longer. Well yeah they do. But duhh, for every generator there are thousands of transformers and they all have to be 1/5 bigger. And you have to replace generator bearings anyway. Net savings, negative.

220V house mains get away with almost half as much copper for the same Watt load. But if Euro mains are ground referenced like 120V US mains, danger to a user in a mishap is doubled.

Edison's original idea was 100V DC. Which is uncomfortable to come in contact with but seldom lethal. Tesla/Westinghouse decided originally to match that with AC. But that's RMS. Which means during part of the cycle the voltage is zero and during part of the cycle it's as high as 140V which is getting dangerous. At 120V RMS, the peaks are almost 170V, which is dangerous. 240V RMS is 336V peak, which is often fatal. That's what makes AC "more dangerous" than DC at the same rated voltage.

 

[dj-gabriele]

But if Euro mains are ground referenced like 120V US mains,

Actually electrocution deaths per year in the USA are THREE times as much as all the electrocution deaths in Europe (27 countries)...
This goes a long way to show what system is most safely implemented!

PS: In Europe is 230V ground referenced and 400V phase to phase not 220 and 380!

Anyway, going back to dishwashing:
every modern European dishwasher can be hooked up to hot water and cold water only machines are exceptions!
But be aware that hooking up the machine to hot water will decrease it's cleaning ability and reduce cycle times of around 10 minutes as water heating is skipped.

This you can read in most dishwasher manuals around.

Another question is about the energy star rating: an energy star rated machine American machine will use around 2/3 to double the power and water of the analogous "A class" European machine, if one compares to the new A+ or A++ machines this difference goes even higher, why is that?! Can't American manufacturer make their machines as efficient as the ones they sell in Europe while preserving washing ability as happens here?
And also, why are American machines so much more noisier than their European counterparts?! (E.g. an American market SMEG at 11 litresand 1 kWh per wash and 41db of noise level and a Kitchenaid at 23 litres and 1,6 kWh and 51db, both upmarket brands)