Do-it-yourself copper plumbing

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scoots

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A lot of the members here have laundry rooms with multiple working washer/dryer sets at fully plumbed stations. Did any of you guys do your own copper plumbing for your set ups? Where did you learn the skills? How long did it take?

I am asking because I want to install a laundry tub and a utility sink in my basement. It's a short straight run to my work stations, and I don't want to pay a plumber hundreds of dollars for a skill kids pick up in High School shop class.

-Thanks
 
I've done it.

It is simple in practice, difficult in theory.

First, you need to size your pipes. A 1/2 inch pipe is great for supplying 1 washer, 1 sink, etc. For more than 1 point of use, you must use 3/4 inch pipe. It's ok to split the 3/4 and have 1/2 inch going to each individual connection. I would recommend running a main line in 3/4 and then using Ts with 1/2 inch lines to each individual connection.

As for actually soldering, I was taught in 1 hour by a pro.

First, you will need a torch. Cheap torches have a gas valve you turn and then you must light it with a striker. Better torches have a button you press that, in a single action, opens the gas flow and strikes a spark. All you need to do is push the button and it lights itself. You can either lock the gas on or hold down the button. This automatic torch is a godsend. I would strongly recommend you get one for both convenience and safety. IT IS WORTH EVERY PENNY!!!

Second, you will need gas. Propane comes in blue bottles and is pretty forgiving because it has the coolest burn. It is also the slowest, but that is an advantage if you're just learning. MAPP gas comes in a yellow bottle. It burns hotter than propane and will allow you to work faster but it is less forgiving. I recommend you stick with the propane. You will need MAPP gas, however, if you are soldering pipe larger than 3/4 (not likely in a home).

Third. What parts to use? You will need pipes, pipe joints, and valves. Buy ONLY ball valves. Older style gate valves are cheaper, but you have to dismantle them so you don't melt the guts with the torch. Ball valves can take the heat and they go from shut to full-on in 1/4 turn. Valves take a long time to heat, but be patient.

Fourth, you will need tools. The torch is covered above, but you will also need a pipe brush, flux, pipe cutter, and solder. Buy a good all-in-one pipe brush. It has a wire brush on each end for cleaning the inside of the fittings and valves, a 1/2 inch on one end and a 3/4 on the other. It also has 2 holes in the body with wire brushes. These are for cleaning the outside of the pipes, one hole is for 1/2 inch, and the other is for 3/4. You make the pipe and fittings all nice and shiny before you flux and solder. If you don't make the connection clean, it won't seal. When in doubt of whether it is clean enough, keep brushing. You can also use sandpaper in lieu of a wire brush, but the brush is much easier.

Flux is essential. Buy lead-free plumbing flux and use it. You don't need as much flux as you might expect, but being new, I would recommend using lots of it. Not everyone fluxes both the pipe and the connector, but I do and I recommend you do too. The flux helps draw the molten solder into the joint and ensures a solid connection.

Solder is what gets the job done. Standards for solder have changed over the last 20 years to eliminate lead content. If you have old solder, don't use it, get the new stuff. The new stuff melts at a higher temp than the old stuff, but better to be safe. Make sure you buy plumbing solder and not electrical solder. You may want to try some flux core plumbing solder too. It might be a little more forgiving.

The pipe cutter is important. Buy the longest length of copper you can because it's cheaper per foot that way. If you need to have the pipe cut to fit in your vehicle, that's ok and the folks at Lowe's or Home Depot will do it for you. Just tell the person at the register the pipe was originally 1 piece. Your cutter will consist of a small tool which fits around the pipe and has an adjustable handle. Tighten the handle until the tool's cutting wheel touches the pipe and spin the tool around the pipe. Tighten the handle every few revolutions and repeat until the pipe is cut. Do not over tighten the handle or else you will dent the pipe and it won't fit into the fittings or valves.

Fourth. Technique. I suggest you get some spare pipe and fittings and practice for awhile before you actually start plumbing. Cut some lengths of pipe then clean the ends, clean the fittings too. Then flux some of the ends and fittings and put them together. Do one joint at a time and then more as you get a better feel for it.

Unwind some solder from the roll and roll it around the pipe. That is about the right amount of solder to use for each joint on that size of pipe. Next, unwind more solder from the roll so you can hold it without the heat coming back up the solder and burning your fingers. Finally, bend or straighten the solder as you deem fit so you can hold the solder with 1 hand and the lit torch with the other.

Light the torch and apply the heat where you want the solder to go, do not heat the solder directly. Don't heat the outside edge of the joint either, heat the back side of the joint so the solder flows in that direction. The joint is hot enough when you touch the tip of the solder to the hot joint and it melts by the heat of the copper and flows into the joint. You don't really need to move the solder around, that's what the flux does. When the molten solder runs out of the joint you have used just a little too much, but not enough to be a problem. If the copper starts to discolor a lot, you have overheated the pipe and likely burned off the flux. When this happens, you must take it apart, clean it till it shines, flux, and solder again.

Fifth. Some cautions and tips.
Copper conducts heat very well. The pipe will get hot pretty far from the joint. To stop the spread of heat, wrap the pipe with a wet rag, just not too close to the joint you are trying to solder. You may use a wet rag to quickly cool a hot pipe or joint. If you are soldering near wood, spray the wood with water before you solder. Also, keep a squirt bottle handy in case something does start to burn. Soldering a joint is not slow so if something starts to smolder, keep soldering until the joint is done, you can spray the smoldering spot long before it becomes a hazard.

If you are soldering a joint, solder both ends of the joint at the same time. Heat the joint, apply solder, then heat the other side very briefly and apply solder there too. This way you won't melt one joint while you solder the next one.

After you have soldered a joint or set of joints, cool the hot pipe with a wet rag and wrap the pipe with the wet rag so you don't melt your new work when you work on the next joint down. When soldering the connection to your existing plumbing, wrap a wet rag around the pipe so you don't melt any joints in your existing plumbing.

Always solder dry pipes because steam will find a way out through molten solder and result in a gap in the solder joint. Always solder ball valves with the valve open to allow any steam to escape. Also, when you turn on the water, the ball valve's handle may leak a little. There is a nut that holds the handle on and another behind the handle, make sure these are tight.

When buying straight joints, always make sure to get ones that have a small indentation that serves as a pipe stop. This way, when you insert the pipe, it stops at the right spot and there is enough joint left for the other pipe.

Get a washing machine connection valve so you can use a washing machine hose to connect your practice plumbing to a hose spigot to pressure test it before you tear loose on your house. It is not recommended to reuse previously soldered joints and valves, but cutting the pipe to which the valve is connected and connecting that to your new work is just fine, just so long as you don't accidentally melt the valve's joint.

You may want to consider an anti-hammering device. This is essentially a vertically-mounted section of pipe which connects to the plumbing at the bottom and a cap at the top. This traps air in the vertical pipe which acts as a shock absorber. If the washer shuts off the water, the air will compress so the pipes won't hammer.

Be patient, take your time, and make sure there is someone else nearby to serve as a second set of eyes. You will be playing with fire.

Clear as mud?
Dave

PS: If you have doubts, get someone to teach you. Maybe there's a small class at a local community college or vocational school.
 
Excellent primer on sweating copper plumbing, Dave.

I'm gonna keep a copy for future reference. I have a stack of copper pipe and fittings waiting for me to get motivated to replace the threaded steel pipe under 1/2 of the house with copper, and put in larger (3/4) feeder pipe for the one location this is now copper but 1/2 all the way. Part of the hesitation is over technique. The other is that it's grueling to be crawling around down there. And lastly, it's the mental challenge of redesigning the pipe layout (the steel was added onto haphazardly, and pipe nearly runs in circles to get to some places). I figure it will take me more than one day so I'll want to stage the job in sections so I can still have water service overnight.
 
I have done it

but not for plumbing. I have made garden trellises made from copper pipe, and thats when I learned to solder. It does take some practice, and yes the automatic torch is great, but my soldering was quite sloppy for awhile until I got the hang of it.

That said, when I got my new washer 2 months ago I decided to replace a run that had had a slow leak for a long long time. I chickened out on replacing the tubing and the valve myself, and had a more experienced friend do it. I just have bad luck with plumbing repairs, and prefer not to do it myself.
 
Well I just replaced 2/3 of the plumbing with PEX. VERY easy to work with, goes anywhere easily. Fished it through walls with few problems, bend it around corners easily. Crimping is a breeze too.

Not that I wanted to do it. The house I've been redoing for some time had issues. Furnace cut out last winter and everything froze -solid- 10 degrees inside, -20 out. Market sucked so I let it sit, now looking at leasing it out so need to get things done. Hated cutting holes in the walls that were freshly painted and market ready, but luckily the holes were minimal with PEX, using copper would have been major destruction. I have two upstairs baths and a laundry room, all the copper that is left if about 5'. Must have used about 100' of PEX for just those two rooms, much more elsewhere.
 
Matt:

I am shocked that in such a cold climate there wasn't a back-up heater of some kind.

Say a gas heater (non-electric controls)in the basement or on the main level. Perhaps even enough electric heat to maintain just-above-freezing temperatures.
 
I had it done

By the lead maintenance man where I work.

Because there is something to be said about experience, as well as having the proper tools for the task at hand. As I didn't want to spend a fortune on the project, (main reason for not "cold"-calling a plumber);and i didn't want to buy tools & equipment i would only use once.

Also, as i live in a manufactured/mobile home; i needed someone knowledgable in working with PVC & ABS materials. So, all considered; i felt confident with the individuals' experience that i hired, and was charged a reasonable rate.

It has been several months since the project, & NO regrets.

A word of caution however, cities & states vary with building &safety codes, so keep in mind, a permit "may" be required to avoid any unexpected surprises down the road, so-to-speak. ...(especially when it comes to gas lines).

P.S. Just learning to post pics, so hopefully some will follow soon.
-Russell
 
Copper vs. PEX.

I have never used PEX. I am familiar with it, but I also had a personal encounter with Quest, or polybutelene pipe. It went together the same way as PEX and was absolutely guaranteed to fail (usually at the joints on hot water lines) within 10-15 years. The metal crimp ring would heat up as hot water flowed through the pipe and then cool off once the water was shut off and cooled inside the pipe. This cycle of heating and cooling over a decade or more was enough to cause metal fatigue in the crimp ring, causing leaks. The company that made Quest pipe has since been sued out of existence. I hope the design has been substantially improved with PEX.

I am a professional historic preservationist and am admittedly very conservative with building materials. I only like using materials that have a long LONG and well-proven track record. I like copper because it has the reputation I am looking for and I know exactly what to expect from it over many years of service, both good and bad. Professionally, one of my worst fears is causing damage to, or destroying, something historic due to something I did. I don't like to take risks or chances with buildings.

Personally, I understand how PEX is cheaper to buy and install in pretty much every measurable way, but copper is not that bad. I found it quite easy to work with and not at all expensive. Well, the price of copper is high, but if I am doing a small project or a repair, it is likely I could buy the connections and pipe with money from my couch. Valves are the most expensive parts. If I am doing the work myself, I will use copper every time. I don't need an expensive proprietary crimping tool and I am confident in the ability of properly installed copper pipes to stand the test of time. In lieu of soldering, you can use Shark Bite connectors. They are fast and easy. Unfortunately, fast and easy things haven't got the greatest track record, so I tend to avoid them.

I have learned a few lessons that may be relevant here. Pipe insulation is dirt cheap. USE IT!!! Use it on ALL hot water lines to save money and use it on all cold water lines to reduce noise. It's easy to install, easy to remove, and can actually make a huge difference. Remember, copper conducts heat and it can radiate heat from a hot water pipe into the room instead of the faucet. Insulating pipes will not prevent pipes from freezing, but it will buy some time before they do freeze.

Copper's disadvantages in comparison to PEX include:
More expensive materials.
More labor intensive, and therefore more expensive, installation.
More susceptible to freezing.

Copper has a long and good reputation. Also, once you learn how to work with it, it is actually extremely easy to work on.

I'll stick with my classic copper,
Dave
 
Dave, that is EXCELLENT information, great job!

I have a couple notes / points to add.....

I have never used a "pipe brush", actually didn't know they were out there. I've always used the little blue roll of "sand paper" specifically for scuffing up the copper pipe ends prior to flux and soldering, it works great!

Also, always measure twice, cut once... then lay everything out and pre-fit it to make sure everything is where you want it to be BEFORE you start soldering. Pull it all apart again once you know it's all good.

On cooling the freshly soldered joint with a wet rag.
I would suggest NOT doing that and just let it cool naturally, UNLESS there is a risk of a surrounding material overheating and burning. BUT, that is mostly a matter of watching were the torch flame goes as you solder. When welding something, if you cool the fresh weld too quickly, like spraying with water, the weld cools too quickly and can cause the weld to crystallize, weakening it. Though at a much lower temp, soldering is similar, so I would let it cool naturally if you can. ALSO, halving the wet rag wrapped around the other end of what you are trying to solder can make it much more difficult to bring the joint up to temp for the solder to flow.

Yes, solder dry pipes. If there is water in the pipe you are trying to solder, not only can there be a steam / solid joint issue, but the water in the pipe dissipates the heat from the torch, making it EXTREMELY difficult to get the joint hot enough to even melt the solder.
Believe me, I've been there and done that!

Once you are connecting everything and soldering your final joints, have a small mirror (2 or 3 inches square) handy for seeing the back of the joint you are trying to solder. It helps. Also have a dry rag near for wiping the joint 1 to 2 minutes after you finish the solder. This way you can inspect the joint to make sure there is enough solder to seal it.

The one thing I can suggest is don't rush. Take your time, follow each step, try not to overheat the joint and check your work after, but before it cools completely. This will make it easier to bring the joint back up to temp if you need to add more solder.

Here is a photo of the plumbing I added for the washers. I tied everything in at the utility sink connections. It was a little challenging right under the sink, but it all came out great!

Kevin

RevvinKevin++8-26-2009-01-40-32.jpg
 
I have a lot of experience with fabricating PVC plumbing - from working on the irrigation water for the yard and fish pond. It's rather simple, but unlike solder there is no undoing what has been cemented in place.

Anything but copper or galvanized steel is illegal in this town. Also all waste/drain pipe under the house is supposed to be cast iron - no ABS allowed by code (but a previous owner installed it an a couple of spots anyway).

A little known plumber's trick: If soldering or repairing a line that has some water still left in it... take a chunk of french bread and shove it up into the pipe that is dripping. It will absorb the water so that one can complete the soldering job. Then, when the water is turned on, the bread will dissolve and be ejected out the nearest on faucet (although it's a good idea to remove any faucet screens first).
 
You can also use compression fittings. Big advantage is that these are removable, which can be very convenient when you foresee future expansions/alterations: you can e.g. temporarily close open ends with brass disks. Other advantage is that you don't need to apply heat, which is sometimes impossible due to presence of heat sensitive materials and the tube doesn't need to be dry when you want to change the connection.

Disadvantages are: more expensive; doesn't look so neat; can sometimes sweat (I always use grease to prevent this).

So my strategy is capillary fittings where possible and compression fittings at strategic points.
 
Pex is all that gets used in these parts for radiant heat, and is the std for plumbing in the $500k-up McMansions, for whatever that's worth.

The downside is you need the $100 crimper that evenly "shrinks" the copper rings around the tubes. From that point on its a breeze. I got turned off copper when 3/4 elbows and tees were nearing a buck+ a piece.

The other big advantage is that it's often easier to home-run all your fixtures as the PEX will snake like romex back to your distribution manifold, allowing quick shutoff of each circuit and much faster installation than a backbone setup (where it makes sense to do so). And because of the individual runs, pressures and temps tend to balance and track evenly...important while you're in the shower and someone flushes a toilet!
 
If I was doing a new build, it would be done with PEX. Very easy to work with and the home runs do manage flow nicely.

And to Toggle's question of back up heat, How do you provide backup heat to a 3 level 3000+ sq. Ft. home? You may have some heat in the basement but it wont do much good on the second floor where the bathrooms are. I have 3 fireplaces with gas logs in the house, which would heat nicely, if they were thermostatically controlled, but they are not. You just don't expect the furnace that has been operating well for several years to decide to cut out. When I walked in I could hear the igniter clicking away, the computer did not open the gas valve. all I had to do was power off the furnace and power it back on and it kicked in immediately.

Luckily all the pipes froze at the same time and there was no water damage. The house is mostly plaster and that would have been a mess to fix. The only damage was sort of my fault. When I saw everything was froze I decided there was not any point in paying $150 mo for heat, so I left it off. A few weeks later it warmed up outside and the ice melted in the powder room toilet. The bottom of the toilet tank had cracked so the water ran all over the maple floor that runs through the foyer, bath, dining area and kitchen, have not decided what to do with that yet...
 
Hey Bill,

I would agree woth most of what's posted here. Though the process Dave spelled out may seem lengthy, it really isn't that bad. Each joint takes, literally, about 60 seconds to prepare and about the same to solder (less, really). If the prep is done correctly, that's most of the battle. Don't skimp on cleaning the copper!

Only a few things I would comment on:

Yes, do clean the joints with a damp rag shortly after soldering. Seconds after removing the heat from a properly soldered joint, the solder is set. What you're doing isn't so much about cooling the joint, but removing the residual flux from the outside. If you've ever seen a joint that has a lot of verde-gris (green oxidation) on it, that's a joint that wasn't wiped.

Yes, make sure you have the flame on the opposite side of the joint from the solder. You want the main part of the flame to be on the female side of the joint and the solder to be on the male side. The solder will flow towards the heat. While you're heating the coupling, periodically touch the solder to the seam. When it kind of sticks but doesn't melt, it's almost ready. A few seconds later, you should be able to touch the solder to the seam and the solder will flow. It will look as though it's being sucked into the joint, and that's exactly what you're looking for. Ideally, you don't want to see a little drip of solder on the bottom of the joint, but, truth be told, it won't hurt anything as long as the whole joint is soldered.

To show how easy it is, check out the link for the YouTube video I've included. I checked several, and this looked like the best example.

Good luck to ya!

Chuck
(my late pipe-fitter Dad would be proud!!)

 
THANKS EVERYONE!

This is one of THE MOST USEFUL threads I've ever seen on this website.

This is the bread and butter of our hobby. If we are to collect washers, we need to know how to plumb. My bro-in-law just built a small house and plumbed it with PEX. Very cool stuff to work with. Somewhat flexible and EASY to work with. You still have to solder some copper for the valves but for the most most part, just running the stuff is a piece of cake.

I wish there was a way to "sticky" this thread like in other forums.
 
First, I want to apologize for the delay in offering thanks for this thread, I actually posted something early yesterday, but the post seems to have disappeared.

I wanted to especially thank VolvoGuy for perhaps the most complete description to a technical question I have ever asked on the internet. Thanks also to RevvinKevin for photos of his set up (very similar to what I have in mind), and Perc-o-prince for the extra pointers.

I will be going with solid copper: First I really do need a laundry tub and a shop sink in my basement. That being said, the second reason is that the new sinks will act as a test bed for limited re-plumbing of the house.

I recently purchased the house I am in (1910 bungalow) and discovered that the "new" plumbing that was installed two years ago "steps down" from 3/4" to 1/2" diameter in the mains and water service in the house runs at a trickle.

I honestly think the plumber pulled a fast one on the former owner... but the good news is since the house has a full basement with a plumbing core for all water service, it's not that big a job to replace a few feet of copper piping at the correct diameter.
 

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