Do they have gas dryers in Europe?
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I've thought about this myself. I know Miele used to sell a gas dryer, but it may have been made just for the North American market. I'm sure Henrik or Louis can answer this.
Gas dryers are very rare here in Europe. Heatpump dryers are becoming the norm here for several reasons. Heatpump dryers are very energy efficient, but also there is an end to the resource of natural gas. There will come an end to natural gas as fuel for heating houses too. Only White Knight in the UK still manufactures gas clothes dryers. Miele stopped making them a long time ago already because they didn't sell in Europe. A lot of European people prefer line drying above using a tumble dryer, even if they have one. I suppose the extra costs of putting an extra gas line in and buying a more expensive dryer doesn't pay itself back.
Here is the White Knight dryer:
https://whiteknightdryers.com/shop/white-knight-eco43a-gas-dryer/
Here is the White Knight dryer:
https://whiteknightdryers.com/shop/white-knight-eco43a-gas-dryer/
Heat pump dryers are more energy efficient, but they take a long time to dry a load of clothes. Gas dryers are common in North America, and they can dry a load of clothes fast! More electric dryers are sold than gas dryers, but electric can be just as fast as a gas dryer, but some take a long time to dry a load of clothes. My Maytag DG810 gas dryer can dry a load of clothes fast, and does a great job at drying clothes! Gas dryers are more economic to use, since they only need a standard 120VAC outlet, but electric dryers require a 240VAC outlet to run ( 240VAC in North America is only used for electric dryers, electric stoves, electric water heaters, and air conditioning )
Well, the voltage isn't the problem. Everything is 230 Volts here. And if you want a commercial machine you can get a 400 Volts connection and a dryer that connects to it.
Well, some people think it's better for the environment to use less electricity. Some other people prefer line dried clothes over clothes dried in a tumble dryer because line dried clothes smell better. Yes, electricity is more expensive here, but not that much that we can't afford to use a dryer.
My mother uses a clothes line all summer. I miss the fresh smell but working nights it's hard for me to hang clothes outside and Tony can't do it since he's still laid up with his leg.
Two of our transmitters at the Greenville site use a 240V/400V 3 Ph for water pumps,blowers,filament supplies,LV supplies.It is a GREAT system-and MORE efficient.You don't have the LOSS with 120V systems.AEG-Telefunken from Germany and Brown Boveri from Switzerland.250/500Kw SW AM transmitters-they were installed here in 1985.
Brown Boveri later (1988) merged with Asea, the company that bought up a washing machine factory and from then on manufactured Asea Cylinda washing machines, later bought up by the furniture company Asko. Which brings us back to washers and dryers again. 
warmsecondrinse
Well-known member
Having 240v as the standard does make things simpler in some respects. There's no need for special wiring or having 240v "brought in from the street" as is often the case in the US. The extra cost of doing that, the fact that there's likely already gas piped into the house, plus that venting is likely not an issue combine to make gas a more attractive option.
That reminds me of my cousin's house in Poland. Back in the 80s random fuel shortages made it a good idea to have as many bases covered as possible. In addition to gas, wood AND cola set-ups for cooking & heating, my cousin had a standard outlet on its own circuit, like a washer here in the US often uses. He told me that the 4 electric radiators (think deLonghi) could keep the whole house habitable in winter. I couldn't figure out how that could possibly be the case...
Then it dawned on me that with 240v each radiator would produce MUCH more heat than its US counterpart, lol.
When I was in southern Brazil where central HVAC was not the norm, I learned it wasn't unusual for each room in a house to have an outlet on its own circuit near a window. A/c was plugged in during the summer and an electric radiator in the winter.
Jim
That reminds me of my cousin's house in Poland. Back in the 80s random fuel shortages made it a good idea to have as many bases covered as possible. In addition to gas, wood AND cola set-ups for cooking & heating, my cousin had a standard outlet on its own circuit, like a washer here in the US often uses. He told me that the 4 electric radiators (think deLonghi) could keep the whole house habitable in winter. I couldn't figure out how that could possibly be the case...
Then it dawned on me that with 240v each radiator would produce MUCH more heat than its US counterpart, lol.
When I was in southern Brazil where central HVAC was not the norm, I learned it wasn't unusual for each room in a house to have an outlet on its own circuit near a window. A/c was plugged in during the summer and an electric radiator in the winter.
Jim
Much more heat
Yes, that is right in theory, but I have never seen a portable electric heater with an element higher than 2000 Watts.
Yes, that is right in theory, but I have never seen a portable electric heater with an element higher than 2000 Watts.
mralex
Well-known member
White knight is the only brand that I know of that does one gas dryer
Huebsch (Speed Queen) gas dryers are sold here as an alternative for the White Knight. The dedicated website has disappeared though.
Correction on the electric heaters. I just found a few that have a higher wattage, 2200 and 2500 Watts.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Electric heating
This style of electric bar fire used to be quite common in UK homes, for living rooms, and sitting rooms.
(Photo borrowed from Pinterest).
My parents had one identical to it, which sat in the sitting room/lounge. It was 'Sunhouse' brand, part of Radiation Group.
There were 3 radiant bars, each rated at 1000W each: quartz glass with a spiral 'spring' of Nichrome type wire inside. The bars were switchable, controlled by two rocker switches: 1 bar or 2 bars, or both switches on, 3 bars.
In addition, the fibreglass 'coal effect' had two bayonet cap 60W 'fireglow' red bulbs, which provided the light.
Furthermore, under the heat reflector, there was a fan-heater type of cylindrical fan, which only provided cold air-current to agitate the 'flame effect' strips. It was controlled by a third switch.
There was a fourth switch, which acted as the main switch.
So you could have plugged in at socket:
Appliance off,
Fireglow on, no heat,
Fireglow on, flame effect on, no heat,
Fireglow on, 1 bar on, flame effect off,
et cetera...
right up to everything switched on. Full load seemed to be about 3120 Watts (maybe the bars were slightly underrated to allow for the bulbs and fan motor?) . I do remember the 'MK Electric' plug became warm to the touch when on at full power. The wiring in the flex was the old 'red, black, and green' colour code.
There was another Sunhouse fire which sat in the dining room. This was a little cheaper - no wavy flame effect. The bars on this fire were 'fireclay' with the wire element spiralling around the outer surface of the ceramic rod.
This style of electric bar fire used to be quite common in UK homes, for living rooms, and sitting rooms.
(Photo borrowed from Pinterest).
My parents had one identical to it, which sat in the sitting room/lounge. It was 'Sunhouse' brand, part of Radiation Group.
There were 3 radiant bars, each rated at 1000W each: quartz glass with a spiral 'spring' of Nichrome type wire inside. The bars were switchable, controlled by two rocker switches: 1 bar or 2 bars, or both switches on, 3 bars.
In addition, the fibreglass 'coal effect' had two bayonet cap 60W 'fireglow' red bulbs, which provided the light.
Furthermore, under the heat reflector, there was a fan-heater type of cylindrical fan, which only provided cold air-current to agitate the 'flame effect' strips. It was controlled by a third switch.
There was a fourth switch, which acted as the main switch.
So you could have plugged in at socket:
Appliance off,
Fireglow on, no heat,
Fireglow on, flame effect on, no heat,
Fireglow on, 1 bar on, flame effect off,
et cetera...
right up to everything switched on. Full load seemed to be about 3120 Watts (maybe the bars were slightly underrated to allow for the bulbs and fan motor?) . I do remember the 'MK Electric' plug became warm to the touch when on at full power. The wiring in the flex was the old 'red, black, and green' colour code.
There was another Sunhouse fire which sat in the dining room. This was a little cheaper - no wavy flame effect. The bars on this fire were 'fireclay' with the wire element spiralling around the outer surface of the ceramic rod.
Here in SoCal, a lot of people use natural gas for heating their homes. There are people in rural areas that use electric for heating ( Some people use propane for heating ). The house I live in has a wood burning fire place, and sometimes we use that for heating the house. I care more about the air conditioning, rather than the heating! LOL!
passatdoc
Well-known member
question for Louis re: gas reserves in north of Holland
Louis, do huge gas reserves in the North (Groningen, etc.) still exist, or is the field becoming depleted. When I lived there in the 70s, seems like gas was used to cook and to heat water (gas point of use heaters), and possibly for other uses of which I was not aware. It seemed logical at the time for a country without coal or oil reserves, but which had vast amounts of natural gas.
PS during the recent solar eclipse, the California electric power grid had to make arrangements to run additional generators to make up for the loss of solar power (it wasn't dark here, but the generated solar energy dropped), as if it were night. This happened because 40+% of electric power in California is now solar.
Louis, do huge gas reserves in the North (Groningen, etc.) still exist, or is the field becoming depleted. When I lived there in the 70s, seems like gas was used to cook and to heat water (gas point of use heaters), and possibly for other uses of which I was not aware. It seemed logical at the time for a country without coal or oil reserves, but which had vast amounts of natural gas.
PS during the recent solar eclipse, the California electric power grid had to make arrangements to run additional generators to make up for the loss of solar power (it wasn't dark here, but the generated solar energy dropped), as if it were night. This happened because 40+% of electric power in California is now solar.
We still have huge gas reserves, but the last years exploiting these reserves has lead to some serious earthquakes, so the resources will be less used in the future.
passatdoc
Well-known member
Just as fracking has caused earthquakes in the Great Plains states of USA.
California would have earthquakes with or without energy extraction.
(but then, most new buildings are constructed to survive 7.0+)
California would have earthquakes with or without energy extraction.
(but then, most new buildings are constructed to survive 7.0+)
Using Natural Gas For Clothes drying
May actually reduce demand for gas overall, it certainly does here in the US as large amounts of NG are now burned to generate electricity, and if gas is burned at a power plant to produce enough electricity to power resistance heated electric dryers you have to burn almost three times as much NG as you would if you just had a gas dryer in the first place.
Even heat-pump dryers make little environmental sense if NG is available in the home where a dryer would be.
Consider that a large percentage of clothes and linen drying in Europe is done by NG anyway, nearly all laundromats and commercial laundries use NG to dry the clothing there.
John L.
May actually reduce demand for gas overall, it certainly does here in the US as large amounts of NG are now burned to generate electricity, and if gas is burned at a power plant to produce enough electricity to power resistance heated electric dryers you have to burn almost three times as much NG as you would if you just had a gas dryer in the first place.
Even heat-pump dryers make little environmental sense if NG is available in the home where a dryer would be.
Consider that a large percentage of clothes and linen drying in Europe is done by NG anyway, nearly all laundromats and commercial laundries use NG to dry the clothing there.
John L.
servischris
Well-known member
Gas tumble driers in the UK
As far as I am aware, the only DOMESTIC gas tumble dryers would be White Knight.
As for commercial applications, many commercial premises have gas heat tumble dryers made by Alliance Laundry Systems, Electrolux Laundry Systems and so on. With a gas tumble dryer they will just plug in with only a 0.3kW motor and dont need a larger 32a 1~ 230v supply or 400v 3~ put in place for large heating elements. Saying that, the commercial market is following the domestic and there are commercial heat pump dryers out there and are coming into fashion - Primus seem to be leading the way on the com. HP front. (Ive worked on a few).
Chris
As far as I am aware, the only DOMESTIC gas tumble dryers would be White Knight.
As for commercial applications, many commercial premises have gas heat tumble dryers made by Alliance Laundry Systems, Electrolux Laundry Systems and so on. With a gas tumble dryer they will just plug in with only a 0.3kW motor and dont need a larger 32a 1~ 230v supply or 400v 3~ put in place for large heating elements. Saying that, the commercial market is following the domestic and there are commercial heat pump dryers out there and are coming into fashion - Primus seem to be leading the way on the com. HP front. (Ive worked on a few).
Chris
Natural gas is yesterday's news. Everyone is putting solar panels on their roofs, so they get more independent from natural resources. Houses in new developments don't get a natural gas connection anymore, sustainable energy is becoming the norm very fast.
passatdoc
Well-known member
Typically, a gas dryer in the US costs $40-80 more than the corresponding electric model. Most consumers choose gas, if there is a choice (some don't have a gas line in their home). I don't know about the comparative operating costs today, but when I moved into my home (1988), a brochure from the power company stated it cost 25 cents to dry a load by gas, $1 to dry with electricity. Several cities here, to reduce demands for electric power generation, forbade the installation of 220V outlets in the laundry rooms of newly built homes, forcing the customer to use gas.
Of course the economics are different today, thanks to increased use of solar. I have friends with solar here who retrofitted their roofs, and have zero cost monthly electric bills. I don't know the particulars, in terms of whether they have gas or electric dryers, ovens/ranges/cooktops, and water heaters, but I know they use air conditioning, which uses electricity.
Of course the economics are different today, thanks to increased use of solar. I have friends with solar here who retrofitted their roofs, and have zero cost monthly electric bills. I don't know the particulars, in terms of whether they have gas or electric dryers, ovens/ranges/cooktops, and water heaters, but I know they use air conditioning, which uses electricity.
brucelucenta
Well-known member
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Gas dryers
OMG yes, coin op laundries would almost HAVE to use gas dryers. Can you imagine the electricity bill if they were electric?
OMG yes, coin op laundries would almost HAVE to use gas dryers. Can you imagine the electricity bill if they were electric?
The reason why they mostly, and only use gas dryers in laundromats is because it would not be practical to dry clothes at the laundromat, and most people dry their clothes at the laundromat as soon as they are done. They do use electric dryers in small laundry facilities like apartment laundromats, and small commercial laundry facilities. The electric bill would be VARY expensive, if all the dryers in a traditional laundromat were electric!
The problem with larger commercial heatpump dryers is their formfactor to power ratio. Either they are verry compact but therefor are pretty "slow", or they are relativley large in comparison to their drum volume.
For example, Mieles 700mm wide "compact" HP commercial dryer (700mm width and 1500mm heigth are a common laundromat dryer size for loads up to 10kg) takes about 45-60min for a load IIRC, while the electric/gas one only take 30min.
Their bigger machines have the heatpump module tagged onto the back, and take about 5-10min longer for a full load compared to their gas/electric counterparts.
I wonder if or when laundromats will incorporate either heat regaining systems into their dryer venting or maybe they'll switch to a central heatpump system (one giant refrigeration unit handeling heating/cooling for all their dryers).
For example, Mieles 700mm wide "compact" HP commercial dryer (700mm width and 1500mm heigth are a common laundromat dryer size for loads up to 10kg) takes about 45-60min for a load IIRC, while the electric/gas one only take 30min.
Their bigger machines have the heatpump module tagged onto the back, and take about 5-10min longer for a full load compared to their gas/electric counterparts.
I wonder if or when laundromats will incorporate either heat regaining systems into their dryer venting or maybe they'll switch to a central heatpump system (one giant refrigeration unit handeling heating/cooling for all their dryers).
Heat pump dryers are energy efficient, but are not as efficient with time. Gas dryers have fast drying time, and they can get it done fast. One down side to heat pump dryers is, they are more complex, and are not as simple as a vented dryer, plus vented dryers do a proper cool-down for permanent press fabrics (synthetics) and dry faster.
Owning a heatpump dryer, I can tell you some things about that:
A) Cooldown: True. But our synthetics cycle never exceeds 120F. So no real need for that. And NO cotton cycle on ANY heatpumpdryer exceeds 70C/160F peak, and that is on these speed boosted dryers which have a small resistive heater to speed them up. Normal pure heatpump systems rarely peak beyond 140F.
B) Time: Meh. They are a little slower.
Take Siemens here in Germany: 8kg (that is abou 16 pounds!) in a normal condenser dryer takes 126min, 7kg in their vented dryer 130min (not verry optimized as these barely sell), 8kg in an A+++ heatpump dryer 148min.
The normal condenser uses 4.61kWh, the heatpump 1.48kWh. So it takes me about 10% more time, but I use a third of the energy, and I run the load about 20F-40F cooler.
On the professional side (Miele): The heatpump 325l drum dryers can evaporate 7.5l per hour at a load of 5.2kWh, same size as electric can evaporate 18l/h at up to 20kWh, the gas one can evaporate 17.2l/h at 18kWh gas power + 0.8kWh of electricity. So, the heatpump is half as fast, but uses a half as much energy for the same usage.
That makes a heatpump dryer brake barely even on a large scale professional application as they are about twice as expensive. But as ürices come down, that will change as well.
C) Lifespan/consitency: That is something that only turned around for households here a few years ago and is starting to turn around slowly for professional equipment.
Now, with A+++ dryers avaible for as low as 500€, and the cheapest heatpump dryers for 350€, it really barely makes sense to buy anythin else. And give that nothing new last for more then 5-10 years, heatpump dryers don't have a chance to age anymore. Coolants get recycled by now (at least in part), so that impact gets lower and lower as well.
Filtration has improved, so heat exchangers don't clogg up as much anymore.
D) Complicated: Nah. The only thing that changes is that a heater is replaced by a heatpump. Electricly, the difference is that you change out 2 relais for either 1 relais, a capacitor and a motor (in the compressor) or an inverter board and a motor. Oh, and you might need one NTC more. But NTCs don't fail. One motor-mounted fan is replaced by a cheap and easily replaced computer-style fan.
So, yeah, for the US market, gas (and even normal electric) still makes sense. Give that 5-10 years, and that will be different as well.
For the professional side, things start to turn around.
For the EU, heatpump is the standard.
A) Cooldown: True. But our synthetics cycle never exceeds 120F. So no real need for that. And NO cotton cycle on ANY heatpumpdryer exceeds 70C/160F peak, and that is on these speed boosted dryers which have a small resistive heater to speed them up. Normal pure heatpump systems rarely peak beyond 140F.
B) Time: Meh. They are a little slower.
Take Siemens here in Germany: 8kg (that is abou 16 pounds!) in a normal condenser dryer takes 126min, 7kg in their vented dryer 130min (not verry optimized as these barely sell), 8kg in an A+++ heatpump dryer 148min.
The normal condenser uses 4.61kWh, the heatpump 1.48kWh. So it takes me about 10% more time, but I use a third of the energy, and I run the load about 20F-40F cooler.
On the professional side (Miele): The heatpump 325l drum dryers can evaporate 7.5l per hour at a load of 5.2kWh, same size as electric can evaporate 18l/h at up to 20kWh, the gas one can evaporate 17.2l/h at 18kWh gas power + 0.8kWh of electricity. So, the heatpump is half as fast, but uses a half as much energy for the same usage.
That makes a heatpump dryer brake barely even on a large scale professional application as they are about twice as expensive. But as ürices come down, that will change as well.
C) Lifespan/consitency: That is something that only turned around for households here a few years ago and is starting to turn around slowly for professional equipment.
Now, with A+++ dryers avaible for as low as 500€, and the cheapest heatpump dryers for 350€, it really barely makes sense to buy anythin else. And give that nothing new last for more then 5-10 years, heatpump dryers don't have a chance to age anymore. Coolants get recycled by now (at least in part), so that impact gets lower and lower as well.
Filtration has improved, so heat exchangers don't clogg up as much anymore.
D) Complicated: Nah. The only thing that changes is that a heater is replaced by a heatpump. Electricly, the difference is that you change out 2 relais for either 1 relais, a capacitor and a motor (in the compressor) or an inverter board and a motor. Oh, and you might need one NTC more. But NTCs don't fail. One motor-mounted fan is replaced by a cheap and easily replaced computer-style fan.
So, yeah, for the US market, gas (and even normal electric) still makes sense. Give that 5-10 years, and that will be different as well.
For the professional side, things start to turn around.
For the EU, heatpump is the standard.
Heat pump dryers are great if you don't have a vent, but I don't know how much more they cost than a traditional vented gas/electric dryer, but they might cost a little more. Gas dryers in the US are the most economical dryers to use, and they have instant heat. I always make sure there to keep the dryer clean of lint, and I don't overload the dryer either (having a dryer with a lot of lint build up can affect dryer efficiency, and can be a fire hazard)
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