Do top-loaders truly wash clothes better than front-loaders?

[chachp]

Thoughts on balanced spinning in a F/L washer

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">I guess I have had a F/L for so long now that I just automatically make sure the load is such that it won't go off balance.  For example, last week I was washing our king size mattress pad.  The Samsung we had gave mixed results on how well it could balance this.  The Miele is about 2 for 2 on whether or not it was able to complete the spin so I just add a large white towel to the load and that seems to do the trick.  When I was testing this and had a load that didn't spin out, I just threw in a big white towel and set the machine for a spin only.  At 1600 RPMs these come out ready for a short run in the dryer.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">That's about the only thing I wash that sometimes has an issue to complete the spin.  Everything else spins just fine.  It actually amazes me sometimes at how it starts and stops to get the load balanced.</span>

 

[jaums]

My Vote: Front Load

I had a 1960"s (?) Maytag TL that I used for many years. It cleaned poorly compared with other TL machines I had used previously. I noticed it's agitation was lazy compared with the series of TL I grew up with and had used as an adult.

When it died in 2005, I did my research and bought a Kenmore 44082 front loader.

I was amazed at how much better it cleaned the clothes, using much less water and detergent.

When that machine died this past summer, I researched again and made my way to the LG WashTower (WKEX200HWA), FL washer with a dryer on top.

Despite using even less water, so far it seems to be cleaning noticeably better than the Kenmore. My main comparison is ring around the collar and inside shirt cuffs.

I was used to needing to apply liquid detergent or pre-treat to collars and cuffs, but without pre-treating the LG does better than the Kenmore and with pre-treating it does better on really bad cases than the Kenmore. I'm still experimenting with the cycles, temperature and other choices.

The AI has lots to work with--I see lot's of different tub movements, turbo and rinse sprays, etc.

2 concerns:

The lazy spins after the wash and between the rinses. Seems like faster & longer spins to get out the soapy water would improve rinsing. Or is that part of a plan to get rid of extra suds that might be there? I don't see suds--I'm careful not to use too much detergent.

I like the tub light, wish it would stay on more. I don't get it going off as soon as you push Start & it goes off before I get the last sock out & have missed that last sock more than once since I didn't push the button 3 seconds to turn it back on.

Yes, the Maytag lasted a l o n g time, but if I had thought about it a little more, I may have overcome the rule that you don't replace a washing machine until it breaks.

Over all I'm still very pleased with the LG Washtower.

& even if you select the maximum 3 extra rinses, it dispenses the softener with the last rinse.

https://www.lg.com/us/washer-dryer-combos/lg-wkex200hwa-washtower

 

[launderess]

Maytag Top Loading Washers

Am not looking to stir those old pools, but there are many comments or threads about Maytag TL washers and "lazy" agitation. This along with suspect to poor cleaning and or rinsing results. Thus it may not be a fair race to lump Maytag washers in with say those offered by Whirlpool.

Ironically one of Maytag's best performing washers was their wringer with square tub. While subsequently famous for their long lived and rugged transmissions that came with various later models of automatic washers, few if any could equal results of powerful agitation combined with strong currents of water by that square tub.

 

[launderess]

Lazy Agitation

I give you the Maytag HA806



1978 Maytag Washer A408



1990 Maytag Commercial Washer



Maytag A700



Compared to Whirlpool washer (circa 1960's) with famous "Surgliator" agitator.

1960's Whirlpool



Hotpoint 96700 TL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI-UtAA8rtQ

Norge AW-220
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIgRXwoUu8E

And finally just for giggles Maytag wringer washer (round tub).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFm6WX4d6Lw

You can see, well you can see that unless somewhat under loaded Maytag automatics in various models do not roll over wash much if at all. Rather like the Norge things just get batted about as swished through water, but otherwise don't move.

For reasons only known to Maytag they stuck with agitator design from wringer days that kept fins largely at bottom. Thus turnover was largely dependent upon currents of water forcing things down and around. This happened really well with square tub Maytag wringers and even their round tub models, but various automatics just weren't up to the task.

 

[maytag85]

Turn over in my 1963 RCA Whirlpool Imperial Mark XII, and this is probably this best example of how well the Surgilators work. Never had any issues with things coming out dirty after doing a load of laundry in this washer and this by far is the best cleaning top loader I’ve owned so far.

 

[estesguy]

GE WPRE8100 Hydrowave

Does a FL clean better? Oh I'm sure without a doubt they do. But I'm keeping my TL 2007 TOL GE WPRE8100 Hydrowave as long as I can. Why? Because I feel confident I can fix this thing if necessary. I have no such feeling about FL machines. This machine fills to the top, has good turnover, also a warm/warm cycle, and has never gone out of balance on me. I have extra parts on hand, motor, mode shifter, electronic control board, before they go NLA. Regular washes run 34-44 minutes depending on selection, and I'm not an auto mechanic, so these cycle times work great for me. I used to have a family, but since 2015, it's just me, so I only run a few loads of laundry a week. This machine is already 13 years old, and I just replaced the ECB, as the push to start was taking multiple pushes to turn it on. 15 minutes to replace that! Other than that, its been trouble free, and rust free. The only caveat is I'm not sure how the outer plastic tub will hold up over time, as I know plastic can deteriorate with age. But for now, no FL in my future.
[this post was last edited: 12/3/2020-11:45]

 

[mrsalvo]

Concerning the original question, I've never owned a front loader, so no experience. However, a friend of mine did buy one and after he ran a load of very dirty laundry I must say that I was amazed how clean everything came out. Didn't think it was possible.

In 2015 I purchased a SQ 432 and at the time thought I made a very good purchase. After 5 years of hard use, sick parent and all, it still performs but is not the quietest machine, transmission is loud. I now live alone and I've considered getting a new front loader as higher water rates are getting ready to kick in the first of year, again. Since Covid hit, I try to keep my laundry done up and not let it pile up, but washing so frequently I've noticed higher water bills....and it's the washer no doubt.

Honestly, I'm on the fence about my washer. My biggest complaints about it are:
1) It's rough on fabrics if heavily loaded. Not uncommon to find small pin holes in shirts, esp. tee shirts, and ripped towel edges. For this reason I only load it as high as the second hole in the agitator which wouldn't even be considered a big load at all in any other washer. For that amount of clothes, it uses an insane amount of water. There's a lot of lint.
2) Rinse times could be longer. It struggles to get rid of suds, esp. with towels. Usually run 2 rinses, but with towels I often run 3. I do not like high sudsing detergents.
So I work around the constraints and make do.

It took me longer than most to come around to newer technology, harder to teach an old dog new tricks. But I would be willing to relearn how to do laundry and use less resources.

I am speaking only for myself and my experiences.

Barry

 

[combo52]

Reply #44

Hi John, be sure that you have an extra top seal and bearing along with an extra inner tub and tub lock nut We see the inner basket break apart frequently and it takes the outer tub with it if you don't catch it fast. You should also have the front cabinet support frame [ these bend often ] along with a lid switch.

 

It is far easier to put main bearings in a SQ FL washer than doing major repairs on these GE TL machines, Simple repairs like the water pump or motor replacement are about the same.

 

John L.

 

[rp2813]

The first two videos above capture what I've experienced with a Pitman type Maytag 712.  If the tub is packed, turnover suffers.  As shown, some makes are far better than others in this regard, but I was surprised to see that the old Norge was even worse than the Maytag.   That goes counter to everything I've read here from Norge aficionados. 

 

The 712 isn't my daily driver, and I'm mindful about its capabilities.  My biggest issue is the way-too-short deep rinse that, with a full load, can barely manage a single turnover of contents within the allotted time.  At the very least, Maytag should have allowed for another long spray rinse after the deep rinse to remedy the situation.  That said, I've learned that with just some sensible consideration for load size, the 712 gets the job done well enough.

 

I can recall turnover issues on my mom's '74 Kenmore with large tub and Penta-Swirl agitator.  With a full load, the turnover was pathetic.  The Penta-Swirl had even less pronounced vanes, all of them at the very bottom, than its Maytag contemporaries.

 

[launderess]

H-Axis washers that spin, stop, redistribute, then spin...

Yes, some of all that dance is to get load properly distributed for extraction, but there is another reason as well.

Loosening up wash, then extracting, lather rinse and repeat allows for better and even extraction of water.

If you've ever put sopping wet wash into a spin dryer you'll notice when taken out there are areas that are almost dry whilst others are more moist to even wet. That is because water was not extracted evenly from the start thanks to things being bunched up. Same thing happens to some extent with all top loading automatic washing machines.

When doing laundry with Maytag wringer washer last weekend noticed same thing. This is one reason why people were told when using either power or hand wringers that wash should be spread evenly along width of rollers. If you send things through in a heap water is not evenly extracted.

My older Miele does a series of graduated 30 second pulse spins before beginning main spin cycle for "Normal Cottons/Linens". The newer AEG Lavamat and Electrolux toplader H-axis washer do series of spins, stop, tumble about, start spinning again.. this even when load isn't unbalanced. It drove one made at first until understood method behind madness. Things emerge more evenly moist than using spin dryer.

You notice difference in results in larger items like sheets, pillow slips, blankets, etc.... If you take things out of washer then hold them up to light/hang to dry you'll see clearly things from former often have streaks that are more wet compared to relatively dry areas.

Other benefit of all this early redistributing of wash is you're not using wash as a sieve when extracting. When you begin spinning from start and that's all there is you're pulling water (and everything suspended in it) through wash but things won't be even. That is areas of larger mass (where things are bunched up), obviously won't allow water to pass at nearly same rate as thinner areas. So things get "stuck" as it were.

If you've taken dark items out of a top loading washer, in particular if turned inside out during washing, you often see lint, detergent powder or other residue in seams or creased areas when turned right side out. That is an example of fabric acting like a sieve. Extraction couldn't "pull" that residue/sediment through wash easily as the water, so the latter left that gunk behind on its way out.

 

[maytag85]

I find it interesting how some people say Maytags have Lazy Agitation, and I’ve literally put my hand inside the tub of my 1973 Maytag A606 with a ever so slightly under loaded load of laundry when it was washing and things were getting moved around by the power fin agitator. Only time the agitation can be lazy on a Maytag is if the belt(s) are worn or if it’s over loaded and since I load my Maytag A606 properly I’ve never had any issues with it. If you don’t want lazy agitation on a Maytag, put a load sensor agitator on a Maytag with a helical transmission or use a Maytag with the orbital transmission or put a 50hz pulley on.

 

[qsd-dan]

Funny about those posted videos is that they're all incorrectly loaded:

1. Underloaded, which will cause fabrics to swim around rather than roll over. Agitation is a bit on anemic side and the as well as the spin which is an indication that the pump belt is adjusted too tight.

2. Overloaded. Also, the transmission is barking which is an indication of a seizing upper transmission shaft....probably among other things.

3. Underloaded, causing anemic rollover.

4. Overloaded. This machine also has a 54 OPM transmission which is slower than the later models. The Bakelite agitators in these machines require a slight underload for proper rollover compared to the Powerfin. The transmission in these earlier machines were also filled with some very thick transmission oil (oils have come a loooooong way in 60 years) and we haven't got into other possible areas the may need attention.

5. Underloaded.

6. Underloaded

7. Overloaded. Agitation looks anemic compared to Roberts '64....the machine needs some attention.

7. First off, the water level is too low (it should be up the top of the fins) which will produce faster rollover. Second, the N2L uses 3 gallons less than the E and J machines yet agitates at the same speed. This will naturally produce faster rollover. More than 6-7 minutes of washing in an N2L will tear up fabrics....I know, I own one.

 

[appnut]

water level is too low (it should be up the top of the fins

Dan, I'm assuming you are referring to the 1964 Wards. That's the high water level set from the factory. My "other mother" had the exact same washer model, except hers didn't have suds saver. That's the way hers was on high water level. We had the 1964 Norge DispensoMat TOL version. That's exactly the same fill level our high water level came from the factory.

 

[qsd-dan]

Hi Bob, I was referring to the Maytag N2L wringer washer in regards to water level. I did find your Norge story interesting though, thanks.

 

[gorenje]

Front loaders are "indisputably" far better

Hi everybody

When the question was are front loaders better than top loaders I've always said:

Just try an experiment, try to wash a really dirty load of whites in a front loader or the same load in a toploader WITHOUT bleach and see the difference.

Front loaders are far better, especially the European ones, or whichever one has an internal heater and does a profile wash.

Some mentioned that old toploaders and really hot water were maybe as good as front loaders. I don't agree because of the profile wash. Yes hot water makes miracles, that's right, but starting from cold and reaching almost boiling water is the real thing, because hot water from start set a lot of stains.

The mechanical action in a front loader (tumbling and beating on the drum) is more effective compared to a toploader (floating and vigorously pulling thing around). I don't need "turnover" ... I don't need my laundry to have fun floating around in the water I need clean clothes.
I'm always sure my under socks dirt will come out perfectly from my frontloader even if the socks are white. And the same for stubborn stains on whites.

Not to mention that frontloaders are much much gentler on clothes.

Ok the cycles are longer, but I don't care. Some machines can wash up to 9 kg of laundry, thats a huge ammount.

 

[pinkpower4]

Topload. I’m with Eddie on this one.

I’ve been lucky enough to own the Whirlpool topload set that had the dual action agitator. The ones with a real transmission and simple mechanics that just worked. I wish I could buy that type of top load again. It worked for fifteen years. I paid $625 for the matching set back in the 90s. If I had known then what I know now, I would have fixed it. I only had replaced a set of dogs up until the time of the next repair.

I went to an LG front load. Newer is better right? I have no complaints about mildew clothes. We left the door slightly open and ran a load of tap hot occasionally with bleach. Our regular clothes came out OK, but they never really smelled clean and fresh like the one that came out of the top load. No problems with the machine trying to enter a spin. It was a direct drive. Perhaps that helped? I only had two repairs I could fix myself. A rotor where the screw loosened causing the center part of that to strip. A routine check may have prevented that repair. A drain pump. Kids left bobby pin in pocket. The bearings went out at ten years. Toward the end of its life, I found a way to adjust for a tad more water, and I think that helped. I could still open the door at any point during the cycle without water pouring out. I rarely used fabric softener (I think this is why I had no issues with gunk). I use both powder and liquid detergents. Where this machine shined is I believe it has an internal way to heat the water (my hot water tank is set to about 120) and some type of sani wash cycle that could not be beat. I do miss that! This was the cycle I used for my son’s clothes as well as whites. No sour smells. Plusses were it did use less water and less detergent was needed for that reason. I have no clue why they ruined them by making some models now that literally try to wash a whole load with water that barely covers the bottom of the drum.

Then I got the Maytag mvwp575gw. My clothes smell fresh and clean again. Where I notice the biggest difference in with larger, bulkier items. Because this model has a dual action agitator it was able to move that bulky comforter in, down, and through the water. The same twin-size comforter I had washed numerous and regularly in the front load came out so much cleaner! The front load just tumbled it around, so the dirty water settled back on the fabric that was to the inside. This was my son’s who does our yard work, plays sports, and rides dirt bikes. Most newer top loads have energy saving regulations that actually cause them to be less efficient and to not clean as well. I was lucky enough to find this machine thanks to Eugene and Kirk’s reviews. It does have tap hot for the main wash cycles and all the cycles work as expected from the more aggressive Powerwash to the gentler Delicates cycle. I have used mostly liquid detergent (Tide and Persil). I don’t use fabric instead I use freshening beads or those Snuggle scent booster if desired. I think fabric softener not only gunks up the washer but it leaves a coating on the clothes that causes the water and detergent not to be able to penetrate into the fabric as well. I use dryer balls for that same reason. I typically opt for a presoak. This model adds ten minutes for one and uses the same water for the wash cycle. A full tub of rinse water is used. I can wash and dry any load in less than one hour and a half. Since I use a spin dryer, it cuts my actual machine dry time to 30 minutes or less.

The only real quirk of this washer is the only half tub fill is the Normal eco. It’s too rough for delicates and is the only cycle that adds cold when hot is chosen. It works great for smaller loads. I can wash and dry in less than an hour! Since I use a spin dryer first, it is more like 45 minutes from start to finish! With the newer hang suspension models, one has to be more careful about washing like items with like items.

This top load is easier for me to fix. I dislike they have replaced simple mechanical timers with control boards. You won’t convince me that it decreases reliability and adds to the cost unnecessarily for those who just want the basics. The one I have only has one control board. While the new belt drive may make it easier to repair and find parts for, I do think you lose a bit of life with some of the parts. The gearcase isn’t as sturdy as one the old fashioned transmission Whirlpool I had.

My kids are getting older now, but will probably be out of the house by the time I purchase my next washer. The Laundry Alternatives, TC5, Maytag mvwp575gw (they need to at least add half load options for ALL cycles or a water level switch), new LG top load with agitator are on my list to look at first. For a front load, I’d look at the LGs with turbo wash. If I won the lottery, I’d definitely take a look at the SQ front load.

 

[pinkpower4]

Edit

I can’t go back and edit my post. I said this, “ You won’t convince me that it decreases reliability and adds to the cost unnecessarily for those who just want the basics.”. What I meant is no one will convince me that replacing that mechanical timer with a control board was a good thing. I would say the same thing about ATC. The more electronics, the less reliable most things become. In this case, it makes them less usable since the purpose is to control wash cycles or limit hot water.

My experience is important because I am the customer you sell to. Mom approved and kid tested LOL.

 

[sudsmaster]

My two cents...

I think the big issue affecting modern TL wash effectiveness is shared to a much lesser extent by modern FL machines: energy and water limitations. These have led to the dreaded "spray rinse" approach of modern TL machines, which cannot seriously compete with a full rinse of older designs.

I replaced my GE Filter-flo machine with a Neptune 7500 back around 2000, and have never looked back (the GE is in the workshop awaiting eventual occasional service someday). The Neptune may not be the best FL design out there (and has been discontinued anyway), but it cleans quite well, and generally doesn't grow mold or smell bad. I help prevent that by running at least one really hot load a week. I also use STPP to help strip detergent precipitate buildup away from the outer tub and other parts. It generally spins just fine, as long as it's not overloaded. I've learned its limits regarding bath sheets etc.

Out in the workshop I also have three Miele machines of various vintages. Mostly I use the 90's era 1918a model. It out cleans the Neptune but of course cannot hold quite as much. It also takes a lot longer; part of that time lag is that it has to heat all the water itself (no hot water in the workshop). So mostly I use it for whites, like towels and t-shirts. Not jockey shorts cause the 170F temp seems to shorten the life of elastic stuff.

Along the way I also picked up a used old dial Frigidaire front loader. Have never run it but it's a back up just in case the Neptune runs its final spin. It's also in the workshop, but without an internal water heater it's relegated to display only out there.

The weirdest top loader ever made, I think, is the Neptune TL that came out a decade or so ago. You know, the one with two slanted wash disks at the bottom that are supposed to take the place of an agitator and result in water/energy savings. Someday I would like to watch one of those in action, if any are still running.

Any of the above would beat the pants off a wash tub and washboard.

YMMV

 

[chachp]

I'm curious about comments that clothes smell cleaner ou

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">of a top load washer.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">That has not been my experience and I'm curious to know why people think that happens in a F/L machine.  My F/L machine has the ability to do extra water in the rinse cycle.  I've tried both the normal rinse water level and the extra water rinse cycle.  I don't experience any foul smelling laundry as a result using either option.  My machine does monitor the water and if the rinse still has a lot of soap in it, it will add another rinse.  I'm also very careful with the amount of soap I use.  I've spent a fair amount of time testing different amounts of detergent to try to get to a place where it cleans well and doesn't leave a lot of detergent in the clothes.  We have soft water and when I use powder I am literally using one tablespoon of powder.  I get a tiny bit of sudsing on the glass and very clear rinses.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">Is that why I don't get any smelly laundry?  Do all F/L machines do multiple rinses?  I realize they probably don't all have the sensor but I thought they all do at least a couple of rinses.  I generally don't use fragrance beads and only occasionally use Fabric Softener.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">I always leave the door open a little and pull out the soap dispenser tray a little bit when I am finished for the day.  So again, never any smelly laundry nor have I ever had any mold or foul smell coming out of the washer.</span>

 

[DADoES]

Neptune TL

 
There are a few vids of my Neppy TL on my YouTube channel.  I used it a couple weeks ago for a maxed-out load of cargo shorts, briefs, and a few other items (no video of that).  It handles loads of heavier-type items nicely (cottons/towels, jeans, etc.) and washes them well.  Loads consisting of only lightweight or synthetic fabrics, not so much.  I once watched a load of 21 casual button-down shirts not rollover AT ALL for the entire wash period.  I restarted the wash and helped it roll.  It's very touchy about spin balancing and will abort the post-wash and between-rinse spins if it can't balance (tries max of three times).  The final spin tries numerous more times to get a satisfactory distribution, will refill and tumble I think twice, IIRC, with three distribution tumbles on each drain before stopping for help.  Two rinses is the default on all cycles, Extra Rinse option makes it three.  It's interesting and fun to use on occasion but a real frontloader is better, of course.