Does anyone have any tips for better rinsing?

[electron800]

Can anyone give me any advice on how to improve my rinsing results?

In my 5.5kg whirlpool I use no more than 80ml of unilever persil powder for a full load (never overloaded)& I live in a soft water area.

Then I put about 3/4 a cap of non-concentrated fabric softener in the last rinse to try to get rid of the suds.

The machine rinses 3 times in fairly low water levels with average intermittent spins and a 1200r.p.m final spin but the clothes still seem poorly rinsed.

Is there anything more I can do to improve the rinsing or is this the best I can get in this machine?

Thanks

 

[Unimatic1140]

Great Topic

So out of curisoity Matthew, how do you know that the "the clothes still seem poorly rinsed"??? What are some of the things you are seeing that tell you the clothes are not being properly rinsed?

 

[electron800]

how do you know that the "the clothes still seem poorly

well basically they come out much stiffer and smelling much more strongly of detergent than when washed in my Hoover under the same conditions. Also the rinsing water is very cloudy and sudsy even in the last rinse if no fabric softner is added. This is also true in the Hoover but to much less of an extent. Sometimes when the machine goes into final spin slightly off-balance, what pours down the glass is suds not clear water. It frustrates me, I feel like the machine isn't doing it's job properly.

 

[frigilux]

Matthew-- I have mechanically softened water and experience the same problem with my Frigidaire front-loader. As an experiment, I washed a load of bath towels and kept repeating the rinse cycle, just to see how many rinses it would take for the water to produce no suds.

After a total of eight rinses, I was still getting some suds. I've adjusted to using some fabric softener or just ignoring the suds and letting the machine spin it out the best it can.

I tried the same experiment with my Frigidaire top-loader and finally stopped after a total of five rinses. There was still suds after five rinses. (And a total of about 120 gallons of water used for a single load. Yikes!)

On one occasion, I purposely let the water get hard (didn't let the water softener regenerate) and did a load of laundry. There was no suds after the first rinse, but stains weren't removed as well, either. Also, the dishwasher did a horrible job with my very hard water. And my skin felt dry after showering. I've decided to accept the sudsy rinse water. Doesn't seem to be harming anything.

Fortunately, I don't have any skin sensitivities to detergents, so it's not really a problem.

 

[electroluxxxx]

I have the same problem. it does not effect anything just throw em in the dryer with a couple of your favorite dryer sheets and ur clothes are nice and soft along with the Great scent

 

[bajaespuma]

Ancient Chinese secret, huh?

I remember that when we had mechanically softened water, you never even felt that you had rinsed the soap off of your skin when you took a shower. IIRC only the hot water was softened and to get rid of that "slick" feeling, you increased the cold water in the mix.

What I'm suggesting here is that for those of us who live with naturally soft water and those who have their water softened with a mineral salt exchange, it's possible that we're just using too much detergent when we go by the recommended doses on the detergent label. There used to be a chart that came with some machines(the early Frigidaires and GE's)that gave recommended usage according to grains of hardness in water. It's hard to do this now because detergents are being sold to us in so many different concentrations and formulations. I have a friend here in Connecticut on the shoreline where the water is naturally quite soft(comes from a reservoir nearby) who uses one of those stupid "ion balls" instead of detergent and she swears it works. I find that with my LG front loader, 1/6 of a cup(2 1/2 tablespoons) of powdered Tide with Bleach is more than enough to produce some suds for a full and normal load of laundry. I've never bought detergent as infrequently as I do now. One thing I can say for the HE machines, if you pay attention to measurements, you can save a lot on additives. HE detergents are a rip-off designed to stem that tide(pun intended).

The last time I went to Canada, I spent 60 dollars to send back a carton containing 4 boxes of phosphate Calgon. Failing all else, a scoopful of that in the second to last rinse should do it. Interestingly, they no longer recommend adding it to the final rinse. Probably, even with phosphates on board, the formula has been changed many times since that nice lady in the laundromat used to scoop it into her GE filter-flo just to show the world how clueless her husband was.

 

[electron800]

Calgon?

Thanks, it seems like I'm not the only one with this problem. It just seems strange that I can get acceptable results in one machine and not in another, thats what makes me think its not just the soft water. I've tried using less detergent but I find less than 80ml does not always remove all stains and makes little difference to the rinsing quality.

As for Calgon is that something different in the U.S.? European calgon is a water softner that's supposed to be added in the main wash so that less detergent is needed in hard water areas. I'd have thought this could make the problem worse.

 

[Unimatic1140]

So then it sounds like the amount of detergent used isn't the problem here. There must be some big differences between the way those two machines operate. The one that rinses better, does it spin faster between the rinses or does that machine use more water in it's rinse cycles?

 

[electron800]

The one that rinses better

The Hoover uses way more water than the Whirlpool, 4 rinses with water 1/3 the way up the door and water added to the end of the wash to make the level 1/3 up the door. It only does 1 400r.p.m spin between the 2nd and 3rd rinse, but it distrbutes between the others. The whirpool only does 3 rinses with barely visible water levels but does a spin between each (although not particularly fast). I thought that this was the problem and I guess the only way to solve the problem completely would be to add more water. Since this isn't possible is there anything I can do differently to improve the results in this machine?

 

[lavamat78800]

So why don´t you use the Hoover?

 

[panthera]

I think

we really need to find an accurate index of how much detergent residue is actually left in the wash.
Even with no detergent at all, their are going to be some bubbles and 'suds' on the glass or in the last rinse water.
I have enormous doubts as to the usefulness of fabric softener for removing detergent, but would be happy to be proved wrong.

For myself, I stick to the dosage recommendations, use the extra rinse cycle (provides five real rinses and three spins before the final 1200rpm spin) and don't have any reactions although my skin is very sensitive to enzymes.

 

[nmaineman36]

One thing is that might lead up to poor rinsing results is the fact that maybe the washer doesnt spin fast enough or long enough between rinses. I notice a difference in rinsing ability in my Miele using a high spin after the main wash cycle and between the 2 rinses. the final rinse is always clear. And thats using SA8 or Tide HE and German Persil. I used to mix Tide HE with Tide with Bleach and that was a disaster in the Miele. Suds galore and the washer kicked into Oversuds mode where it was filling and tumbling for a short period of time then drain and do it again for about 8 times. The sensor system works well in the Miele.
In the Maysung washer my partner has thats another story...she seems to not even know if its oversudsing and when there isnt a problem I get an error code once in awhile that will say SUDS. It certainly doesnt rinse all that great using the standard rinsing cycle...always have to use Extra Rinse to get a good result. Plus using Max Extract and Extra spin helps some.
On the Miele I use the Max spin and it will spin at high speed between cycle portions.

 

[Unimatic1140]

The Hoover uses way more water than thoe Whirlpool
Matt is there a way you can open up the Whirlpool and tinker with the water level switch to experiment with raising the water level in the machine? Many of those water level pressure switches have (or used to have) an adjustment screw on them. But do experiment with it gently as sometimes a 1/4 turn can raise or lower the level a large amount.

I have enormous doubts as to the usefulness of fabric softener for removing detergent, but would be happy to be proved wrong.
I totally agree Keven, I do not believe that adding fabric softener removes any detergent, only suds. Some fabric softeners actually cause suds, especially in very cold winter tap water temperatures.

One thing is that might lead up to poor rinsing results is the fact that maybe the washer doesn’t spin fast enough or long enough between rinses.
Yup that's another statement I totally agree with. I have found the more soapy water that is displaced from the clothes the more clean, fresh water is absorbed back into the fabrics.

we really need to find an accurate index of how much detergent residue is actually left in the wash.
Exactly! Here is a question for everyone. If we all were to do home tests to determine how well the fabrics are rinsed, what in your opinion would be a good test? I've been thinking about this for a while. Between all of us we could figure out something. Would it be: clarity of the final rinse water, some kind of Ph test, or something else? I would be really interested to hear opinions on this.

 

[electron800]

Robert-I'd love to be able to open the machine up and raise the water level, unfourtunately this is technically my parents machine and they wouldn't like the idea of me fiddling with it.

I also agree that fabric softner dosen't help remove detergent, I only use it to kill the suds to improve the final spin (which can be slowed down by lots of suds) and becasue it at least makes the clothes "feel" softer and as if they are better rinsed.

Nino- The machines are at different houses so which one I use is determined by where I am at the time.

This machine also has no option of an extra rinse and when selecting a rinse only cycle only 1 low level rinse is carried out so it's not as if I could even maually make the machine do many more rinses without a lot of returning to the machine and selecting another rinse

 

[frigilux]

Testing rinse water: I don't think we can go by water clarity, alone; I'd like the test to show the chemical difference between tap water and the water in the final rinse. I suppose a PH test would do that...

It would be interesting if the findings of such a test were to show the suds we see in the final rinse doesn't really carry much 'chemical' weight. I, for one, would be relieved.

I also agree that adding fabric softener to a final rinse to cut surface suds does nothing to reduce the amount of detergent chemicals in the water.

 

[launderess]

Fabric softener does not remove detergent residue any more than using creme rinse after washing one's hair removes shampoo residue.

We've been down this path before; all oils and fats are anti-foam agents, thus fabric softeners which most are in part or whole based on fats, tallow and or oils will decrease foaming and suds, but that does not mean the detergent residue is removed. That being said, in cases of excess foaming, lowering the foam level will aid in better rinsing, as the washing machine will not have to deal with the froth/air caused by high suds levels, but that is far as the theory goes about fabric softeners giving better rinsing results.

L.

 

[Unimatic1140]

I don't think we can go by water clarity, alone; I'd like the test to show the chemical difference between tap water and the water in the final rinse. I suppose a PH test would do that...

So how exactly does one go about making a PH test?

 

[mrcleanjeans]

Adding vinegar instead of softener is a mah-velous way to cut through detergent residues. A 1/2 cup should do.And,no , you
won't smell like Mr.Pickle!

 

[brettsomers]

also, if the machine drains into a standpipe and the standpipe is tall, the pump and hose will retain more water. this leftover water may then taint the next fill. keep the standpipe and drain hose as short as possible.

beware of overloading. if a machine is a so-so rinser, overloading will make it worse.

use as little detergent as possible. its an open secret that the dosages stated on most detergent packages is more than many loads require.

water testing? if its not a gross load you can always taste the final rinse water. sounds silly but you dont have to drink, just taste.

 

[launderess]

Using an acidic "sour" rinse for laundry does not remove all detergent residues per se. Sour rinses were used in commercial laundries to counteract the highly alkaline nature of the detergents often used to "break" soils in the days before modern enzymes and surfactants. Sour rinsing was also used in the days when soap was the main detergent for cleaning laundry as well.

Both of the above counted on weak acids to perform several functions:

Bring down the pH of textiles washed to a level which would not cause skin discomfort when said textiles came into contact with skin.

Help remove mineral residue such as calicum and soap scum (which is mainly mineral residues combined with the fats, oils and other ingredients found in soap). This helped laundry look "whiter" in the same way using vinegar to clean away soap scum from a bathtub.

All these methods relied upon one using either an alkaline detergent an or soap for laundering. Most laundry detergents today are neutral to near neutral and in some cases mildly acidic, therefor acid rinses aren't going to remove much. Liquid detergents in general do not use sodium carbonate, nor other highly alkaline substances, and are near neutral. Thus their residue is more surfactant based, and rinsing with all the vinegar in the world is not going to remove said residue.

L.

 

[mielabor]

Detergent test

In my opinion the only way to test for detergent is to measure the surface tension of the rinse water.

 

[sparkymarky1973]

Matthew

I have the same problem in the A3060 and the quartz. The quartz is much worse because the interim spins are extremely short.It basically ramps up to full speed then slows down again. Like the old hotpoint 18580 for example. The pump doesn't keep going long enough to pump out the suds and it then goes straight into the next rinse. The A3060 can be better but also worse as although it has 2 minute interim spins, if there are lots of suds it just keeps making more whilst spinning so when it stops the drum is filled with suds.I tend to have to either put it through more rinses or only wash half a load. The quartz can be a pain like the whirlpool with selecting extra rinses because you can only select one rinse unlike the 3060 where its the mechanical timer so much easier. Oh im in a very soft water area also so have always had problems with rinsing like yourself.

Mark

 

[toggleswitch]

~So how exactly does one go about making a PH test?

Chemcially treated strips called Litmus paper.

Think swinning-pool/ hot-tub PH water-testing kits. Used for aquariums as well.

 

[mrboilwash]

As far as I know, testing institutes use a very high speed extactor after the wash to determine the pH of the water spun out for testing the rinse result.
There are loads of variables like what kind of detergent, what wash programe,the size of the load, water hardness and who knows what else. This seems to make it so difficult to generate a comparable standard like the energy lables. I also suspect if we had a standard label for rinsing, the average water use would go up again and therefore might not be politically desired.
Turbidity alone doesn`t say much, for example some detergents are almost clear in the wash if the clothes are not very dirty.

Maybe it can be an improvement if you don`t use the detergent drawer of the Whirlpool. Some drawers still give off detergent to the rinse water and of course not to overload is always a good advice for bad rinsers. Are all inermittent spins carried out properly ? If not, maybe a lower sudsing detergent can help.

Fabric softener does not remove any detergent but can be helpful to neutralize the pH, because it is usually acidic for good reason.
Are DEEDMAC or TEA Quaternary really fats ? If so I`m going to give up using fabric softeners, promise, but I still don`t believe it. I thought it`s just detergent with a different charge. Hair conditioner is an other story...

 

[launderess]

Quats, IIRC are cationic surfactants, and are used in both laundry detergents and fabric softeners. Quats have many properties as do all cationic surfactants, and the later are often blended with various other chemicals including fats or tallow to make fabric softeners.

IIRC, the huge pink coloured fabric softener liquids sold in many supermarkets around the USA are quat based, as are some of the dryer sheet fabric softeners.

Oh yes, quat compounds have disenfectant properties as well. There are some quat based fabric softeners sold for use to commercial laundries that process items which may be prone to exposure to bacteria such as diapers, hospital linen and such. The idea is to provide a mild disenfectant property to the product so items treated will stay fresh smelling and reduce any bacteria that may have survived the laundering process.



Easy way to tell if one has liquid fabric softener that is mainly fats, oils and or tallow is to allow it to sit in a cold area for a period of time. Just like with gravy or pan juices, the fat and oils will separate away from the water, leaving visable layers. Such fabric softeners also tend to pour in globs and or thicken when stored in cool areas. Many of the new versions of TOL FS such as Downy "Free" are not tallow fat based, but silicone emulsions and stay liquid at in cooler storage. They also do not leave globs of crud around the cap from product that has dripped out during pouring and dried.

L.

 

[launderess]

You Can Often Find Laundry pH Testers

On fleaBay by such compaines as Ecolab.

Or follow the link:

http://www.kittiwake.com/Default.as...ProductSubSection/91/ProductSubSubSection/246

 

[tomturbomatic]

Years ago on the Laundry Room forum of the House & Garden website, a member who was a chemist used the measurement of parts per million of residual detergent to determine rinsing effectiveness. One of the members bought the testing equipment to do some personal testing. One of the more interesting findings was a comparison between the member's FriGEmore and a neighbor's top loading WP washer. After all of the rinses in the front loader and the one deep rinse in the top loader, the remaining detergent in identical loads was the same.

 

[mrboilwash]

There is indeed an ingredient called "Tallow Alcohol" in Comfort. But I have no idea if that is a fat, an alcohol or maybe even a cationic surfactant ? I don`t want to hijack the thread, but maybe somebody knows what this mysterious substance is. I just can`t believe there is actually some kind of grease in a fabric softener, is there ? That would be digusting in my opinion.

Now back to rinsing. That test from the House and Garden forum, was there a certain dillution factor mentioned ?
Would be interesting to know how much detergent is left in an average load. For example if one washes a load with 100 units lets say grams of detergent, how much is acceptable after the rinse? 1g, 1/10g or even less ?