It's RS647G. 33 years ago would it have used a 40 or 50 amp 240v. circuit and a 14-50R wall receptacle?
Electrical requirements for my old Hotpoint range
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It could have used either 40 or 50 amp circuit, if I were installing a single oven electric range I would use 40 amps as it is a lot safer when something goes wrong.
We went a step safer in the warehouse-museum and installed all 25+ ranges and wall ovens on just 30 amp lines.
We went a step safer in the warehouse-museum and installed all 25+ ranges and wall ovens on just 30 amp lines.
Hey Bob, a 40 (#8 copper wire) or 50 amp (#6 copper wire) circuit would be used. If it is a circuit with separate ground, the receptacle is the NEMA standard 14-50 (4-wire), and if the range is grounded through the neutral, the 10-50 (3-wire) receptacle is used.
33 years ago the code allowed the range cabinet to be grounded through the neutral if the circuit originated at the service entrance, so the 3-wire was most common. If the range circuit originated at a sub panel, the 4-wire was used.
The code now requires the 4-wire circuit for all new installations.
33 years ago the code allowed the range cabinet to be grounded through the neutral if the circuit originated at the service entrance, so the 3-wire was most common. If the range circuit originated at a sub panel, the 4-wire was used.
The code now requires the 4-wire circuit for all new installations.
So Tom I'm surmising you're telling me I'm going to have to have an electrician come out and change the connection the range plugs into. In ignorance, what's service entrance vs. sub panel. Is the latter my circuit breaker panel in the garage?
Tom & John, thank you both for responding.
Tom & John, thank you both for responding.
When we moved into our previous house, there was a mid '80s P7 free-standing range in the kitchen. When we removed it, we found that it was hard wired with flexible conduit to a junction box. We'd never seen anything like it, but knowing the previous owner, nothing surprised us.
With very little research, but knowing the type of cord the new 40-amp range required, we bought both the cord and the compatible receptacle and wired it all up. It was a simple DIY installation, and since the new range was dual fuel, if anything, it required fewer amps than the all-electric range it replaced. This circuit ran through a breaker box.
So Bob, if you already have 40 or 50 amp service to the range's location, and presumably have seen the type of cord used on similar GEs or Hotpoints, wouldn't this just be a matter of matching up the correct receptacle for that type of cord's configuration (if it's not the same already)? Getting an electrician involved and dealing with code compliance is just asking for headaches and huge expense. Even at our current house, when we pulled out my mom's '49 Westy in 2008 and replaced it with the dual fuel Electrolux, I unplugged the Westy from its 1960 receptacle and plugged in the Electrolux. Done. It couldn't have been simpler. Nine years later, no fires, no electrical shocks, and the oven works perfectly. I don't get why this has to be so complicated. Maybe I'm missing something.
And yeah, I'd also like clarification on the difference between sub panel and service entrance. With my limited knowledge, it seems to me that any residential service of 240v would always run through a breaker box, but I don't know if a breaker box is aka a sub panel. I presume that if no breaker box or sub panel is involved, there would be one of those Frankenstein throw switches for the 240v line at the service entrance.
With very little research, but knowing the type of cord the new 40-amp range required, we bought both the cord and the compatible receptacle and wired it all up. It was a simple DIY installation, and since the new range was dual fuel, if anything, it required fewer amps than the all-electric range it replaced. This circuit ran through a breaker box.
So Bob, if you already have 40 or 50 amp service to the range's location, and presumably have seen the type of cord used on similar GEs or Hotpoints, wouldn't this just be a matter of matching up the correct receptacle for that type of cord's configuration (if it's not the same already)? Getting an electrician involved and dealing with code compliance is just asking for headaches and huge expense. Even at our current house, when we pulled out my mom's '49 Westy in 2008 and replaced it with the dual fuel Electrolux, I unplugged the Westy from its 1960 receptacle and plugged in the Electrolux. Done. It couldn't have been simpler. Nine years later, no fires, no electrical shocks, and the oven works perfectly. I don't get why this has to be so complicated. Maybe I'm missing something.
And yeah, I'd also like clarification on the difference between sub panel and service entrance. With my limited knowledge, it seems to me that any residential service of 240v would always run through a breaker box, but I don't know if a breaker box is aka a sub panel. I presume that if no breaker box or sub panel is involved, there would be one of those Frankenstein throw switches for the 240v line at the service entrance.
A bit of clarity
First off, as long as the current circuit which is in place is safe and adequate for the load, use it.
Arguments can be made for separating the ground and neutral, but let's be honest, here - anything which tears a #8 or #6 cable running straight back to the grounded neutral bus at the service panel is going to knock out everything else with it.
NEC only speaks of 'electrical panel'. Whatever you call it, the 'main' or 'service' panel is the one which is hooked up directly to the power company lines and has no more than six breakers to flip to disconnect everything which comes out of that box from the power company lines.
Everything else may be thought of as a sub-panel.
Only at the 'main' or 'service' panel may the neutral bus be bonded directly to the metal panel box and connected to the ground wire.
Every panel after that may not bond the metal box to the neutral bus and must keep the ground and neutral separate from each other.
Everything else is just a matter of local names and not paying attention to the code.
One interesting note for those looking to update 3-wire to 4-wire - unless local code prohibits it, NEC permits running the ground wire within the same raceway (in other words, indivisible) with the old 3-wire cable. It must be continuous and may not be removable. So many local codes don't allow this that somebody is bound to say this isn't true.
That's how our local electricians were able to update a house we were moving into which needed 4-wire service for the new range and dryer.
What one may no longer do (and for some time now) is to ground things to different points throughout one building - here a water pipe, there a rod driven into the ground, another one directly from the service panel. Note carefully, I said, throughout one building before you tackle me with the but...but...but, outlying building, ground rods, etc.
As to 30, 35, 40 or 50 amp service - John is right - the breaker should be the absolute lowest rating which can just carry the load reliably.
So (and let's not get into the PF discussion, yes, it's AC but it's also virtually a purely resistance load, so this is more than close enough):
30A * 240V = 7200 Watts or 7.2kW
35A * 240V = 8400 Watts or 8.4kW
40A * 240V = 9600 Watts or 9.6kW
50A * 240V =12000 Watts or 12kW
Except for one of our Flairs, I can't recall ever seeing a range really use anything near 8.4kW, much less 12kW!
Hope that helps.
First off, as long as the current circuit which is in place is safe and adequate for the load, use it.
Arguments can be made for separating the ground and neutral, but let's be honest, here - anything which tears a #8 or #6 cable running straight back to the grounded neutral bus at the service panel is going to knock out everything else with it.
NEC only speaks of 'electrical panel'. Whatever you call it, the 'main' or 'service' panel is the one which is hooked up directly to the power company lines and has no more than six breakers to flip to disconnect everything which comes out of that box from the power company lines.
Everything else may be thought of as a sub-panel.
Only at the 'main' or 'service' panel may the neutral bus be bonded directly to the metal panel box and connected to the ground wire.
Every panel after that may not bond the metal box to the neutral bus and must keep the ground and neutral separate from each other.
Everything else is just a matter of local names and not paying attention to the code.
One interesting note for those looking to update 3-wire to 4-wire - unless local code prohibits it, NEC permits running the ground wire within the same raceway (in other words, indivisible) with the old 3-wire cable. It must be continuous and may not be removable. So many local codes don't allow this that somebody is bound to say this isn't true.
That's how our local electricians were able to update a house we were moving into which needed 4-wire service for the new range and dryer.
What one may no longer do (and for some time now) is to ground things to different points throughout one building - here a water pipe, there a rod driven into the ground, another one directly from the service panel. Note carefully, I said, throughout one building before you tackle me with the but...but...but, outlying building, ground rods, etc.
As to 30, 35, 40 or 50 amp service - John is right - the breaker should be the absolute lowest rating which can just carry the load reliably.
So (and let's not get into the PF discussion, yes, it's AC but it's also virtually a purely resistance load, so this is more than close enough):
30A * 240V = 7200 Watts or 7.2kW
35A * 240V = 8400 Watts or 8.4kW
40A * 240V = 9600 Watts or 9.6kW
50A * 240V =12000 Watts or 12kW
Except for one of our Flairs, I can't recall ever seeing a range really use anything near 8.4kW, much less 12kW!
Hope that helps.
Thanks Keven, that helped.
Not to contradict what others have said, but I'd like to add details:
Around here, a main panel, service entrance panel or similar names is the first panel after the meter, and it's required by the building codes (it may or may not disagree with current NEC) to have a main breaker that shuts off power to the entire building. It may contain as many breakers as the building needs. That's the place where the neutral and ground are bonded.
A different panel which is fed from the first one is a sub-panel. Say you install a new laundry room with a collection or a new workshop, if the main panel is not *right there* in the same room, it can quickly get annoying and expensive to get lots of new circuits to the new area -- the solution is to install a cable to support all the connected load you expect to use (say, 100A, or 150A) in the new area, linking the main panel to the sub-panel, which will have a "main breaker" designed to protect the cable between both panels, then a lot of smaller breakers for whatever you are using.
In principle, using a neutral wire as a ground wire is not bad. It was more widespread when copper wire was a more expensive than now. In practice, using an insulated neutral wire and a bare ground wire has proved safer, particularly for large appliances that have metal cabinets, like ranges, dryers etc. One of the problems with only one neutral wire is that if that is the only wire that gets interrupted during an electrical accident, the metal frame may still be energized. Having two wires lessens the chances and increases the short-circuit capacity for the entire circuit, thus shortening the time the circuit breakers will cut off power to the entire circuit completely.
As for ranges that use 50A there should be plenty. People describe older electric ovens as much faster to heat up to temp despite having less insulation, although the stovetop burners used to be less powerful back then. But the current ovens claim to have 4,000W broilers and 3,500W baking elements (plus whatever they use for the convection), and the stovetop burners tend to be faster (more powerful) than the older ranges. The baking and broiling elements are not on at the same time (and when they are, the broiling element is not using full power), but many people will in fact be using the oven and the 4 elements at the same time, particularly when it's a holiday.
Both my previous GE (electric coil burners) and the current induction ranges claim in their plate to use 50A and have a connected load of 12kW, for what's worth.
Around here, a main panel, service entrance panel or similar names is the first panel after the meter, and it's required by the building codes (it may or may not disagree with current NEC) to have a main breaker that shuts off power to the entire building. It may contain as many breakers as the building needs. That's the place where the neutral and ground are bonded.
A different panel which is fed from the first one is a sub-panel. Say you install a new laundry room with a collection or a new workshop, if the main panel is not *right there* in the same room, it can quickly get annoying and expensive to get lots of new circuits to the new area -- the solution is to install a cable to support all the connected load you expect to use (say, 100A, or 150A) in the new area, linking the main panel to the sub-panel, which will have a "main breaker" designed to protect the cable between both panels, then a lot of smaller breakers for whatever you are using.
In principle, using a neutral wire as a ground wire is not bad. It was more widespread when copper wire was a more expensive than now. In practice, using an insulated neutral wire and a bare ground wire has proved safer, particularly for large appliances that have metal cabinets, like ranges, dryers etc. One of the problems with only one neutral wire is that if that is the only wire that gets interrupted during an electrical accident, the metal frame may still be energized. Having two wires lessens the chances and increases the short-circuit capacity for the entire circuit, thus shortening the time the circuit breakers will cut off power to the entire circuit completely.
As for ranges that use 50A there should be plenty. People describe older electric ovens as much faster to heat up to temp despite having less insulation, although the stovetop burners used to be less powerful back then. But the current ovens claim to have 4,000W broilers and 3,500W baking elements (plus whatever they use for the convection), and the stovetop burners tend to be faster (more powerful) than the older ranges. The baking and broiling elements are not on at the same time (and when they are, the broiling element is not using full power), but many people will in fact be using the oven and the 4 elements at the same time, particularly when it's a holiday.
Both my previous GE (electric coil burners) and the current induction ranges claim in their plate to use 50A and have a connected load of 12kW, for what's worth.
Thank you everyone. It would make sense to me that current installation uses 40 and wall socket should be compatible. Replacement goal is double oven induction range.
Hi Bob, Yes your current power supply will be fine for your new double oven induction top range.
Hi Ralph, connecting a range or dryer directly to the homes wiring is actually the best and safest way to do so. We see lots of electric ranges connected this way in condo kitchens for example. Keep in mind to do this the appliance must be installed within sight of the breaker panel in case someone is working on the appliance they would see someone that might try to restore power while servicing the appliance.
You can also install a separate cut-off switch box near the appliance and hard wire the appliance, this is what is almost always done in shops and factories with heavy equipment. A hard wired connection is much safer and more durable than trying to run 30-50 amps of power through a cord and outlet.
Every month we see at least a 1/2 dozen outlets on ranges and electric clothes dryers that burn up and fail and while I don't see the ones that actually start house fires I have seen a lot that came pretty close to doing so. So who ever hooked your range directly to the power source may have actually known what they were doing.
Hi Ralph, connecting a range or dryer directly to the homes wiring is actually the best and safest way to do so. We see lots of electric ranges connected this way in condo kitchens for example. Keep in mind to do this the appliance must be installed within sight of the breaker panel in case someone is working on the appliance they would see someone that might try to restore power while servicing the appliance.
You can also install a separate cut-off switch box near the appliance and hard wire the appliance, this is what is almost always done in shops and factories with heavy equipment. A hard wired connection is much safer and more durable than trying to run 30-50 amps of power through a cord and outlet.
Every month we see at least a 1/2 dozen outlets on ranges and electric clothes dryers that burn up and fail and while I don't see the ones that actually start house fires I have seen a lot that came pretty close to doing so. So who ever hooked your range directly to the power source may have actually known what they were doing.
Bob,
You can also look at your electrical panel, there must be a breaker for the stove and it will tell you if it's 40 or 50A.
You can also look at your electrical panel, there must be a breaker for the stove and it will tell you if it's 40 or 50A.
Paulo and John
So very well put.
Interestingly enough, as long as six or fewer breakers have to be thrown to kill the whole service, that's good enough. You don't 'have' to have a main breaker in the NEC.
Local codes may always be stricter. Or stupider - we 'must' have an outlet and plug on our 240V equipment in our area. How much better hardwired in is! John is so right about that - and it does not good to argue with the idjiots around here. Ditto 'wirenuts'. The enormously safer, easier to use, better for many reasons including one can SEE that the connection has been made properly European style connectors aren't permitted here - despite being OK with NEC. Oh, heaven's no. They're 'metric' (seriously, that's what I was told).
Meanwhile, right across the border the young woman running their department is pushing them hard.
Sheesh.
So very well put.
Interestingly enough, as long as six or fewer breakers have to be thrown to kill the whole service, that's good enough. You don't 'have' to have a main breaker in the NEC.
Local codes may always be stricter. Or stupider - we 'must' have an outlet and plug on our 240V equipment in our area. How much better hardwired in is! John is so right about that - and it does not good to argue with the idjiots around here. Ditto 'wirenuts'. The enormously safer, easier to use, better for many reasons including one can SEE that the connection has been made properly European style connectors aren't permitted here - despite being OK with NEC. Oh, heaven's no. They're 'metric' (seriously, that's what I was told).
Meanwhile, right across the border the young woman running their department is pushing them hard.
Sheesh.
Paulo, I already tried that, but I cannot see the little number on the circuit breaker "switch". I'll have to ask one of my neighbors to come do that.
Bob, I agree basically with what nearly everyone above has said. If your receptacle is the 14-50, use a 4-wire cord. If it's a 10-50, use the 3-wire cord. There's no need to change out an existing receptacle. The only time there is a requirement to meet the current NEC is if you are installing a new circuit, such as new construction or complete renovation.
As for the "rule of 6" mentioned by Keven, it applies to distribution panels (usually feeders to other panels, but sometimes large 240 volt loads of 30 amps or more), but no longer to lighting & appliance panels (each such panel must have no more than two main breakers).
As for the "rule of 6" mentioned by Keven, it applies to distribution panels (usually feeders to other panels, but sometimes large 240 volt loads of 30 amps or more), but no longer to lighting & appliance panels (each such panel must have no more than two main breakers).
Bob,
Sorry it's being difficult for you. If you have a magnifying glass, those come in handy.
But one of the handiest things I've seen maintenance folks do is to just take a picture with a cell phone, then zoom in until you can read it. It might work for you too.
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
Sorry it's being difficult for you. If you have a magnifying glass, those come in handy.
But one of the handiest things I've seen maintenance folks do is to just take a picture with a cell phone, then zoom in until you can read it. It might work for you too.
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
John, thanks for the additional information on hard-wired connections. I had never seen such a thing in a residential application until we pulled out that stove in 1990.
Ralph, I have heard of 1950s vintage Kenmore electric high-speed dryers being hard-wired in.
PAULO THANK YOU!!!
I'd hug you if I could. You are a lifesaver!! I was able to take a good picture with my cell phone and blew it up and IT'S A 40 amp!!!
I'd hug you if I could. You are a lifesaver!! I was able to take a good picture with my cell phone and blew it up and IT'S A 40 amp!!!
Camera ...
I have to do that sometimes to read small print on parts and labels and such. Maybe the pending cataract surgery will bring in some improvement.
I have to do that sometimes to read small print on parts and labels and such. Maybe the pending cataract surgery will bring in some improvement.
