vacerator
Well-known member
in South Carolina.
Due to new tariff on parts from China. 126 job losses.
If you want the story, Google it.
Due to new tariff on parts from China. 126 job losses.
If you want the story, Google it.
Element Electronics is closing
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Sad that so many are loosing their jobs. However Element TV's are among the very worst out there in terms of quality. So there is no great loss there.
I view it differently.
I am saddened by Element closing.
I spent over 20 years working in the technical and engineering departments of two of the highest quality television manufacturers that you would know. These were Japanese companies as most American TV manufacturers were dying or dead by the time I got into the biz.
I know of Element and I was rooting for them. Perhaps they were just an assembler of televisions. Many major brands do the same thing - import a "kit" and assemble it in the USA. Fine.
However, I viewed them as a refreshing restart of television building in the USA.
This administration effectively stomped out what little flame there was for TV manufacturing in the USA. It is regrettable that jobs were lost and a smaller player was hurt along the way.
I am saddened by Element closing.
I spent over 20 years working in the technical and engineering departments of two of the highest quality television manufacturers that you would know. These were Japanese companies as most American TV manufacturers were dying or dead by the time I got into the biz.
I know of Element and I was rooting for them. Perhaps they were just an assembler of televisions. Many major brands do the same thing - import a "kit" and assemble it in the USA. Fine.
However, I viewed them as a refreshing restart of television building in the USA.
This administration effectively stomped out what little flame there was for TV manufacturing in the USA. It is regrettable that jobs were lost and a smaller player was hurt along the way.
The GOP/republican/DJT definition of MAGA=concentrate the WEALTH with the already wealthy, and screw the working man and women and the middle class. And sadly the very people that are getting shafted, are the diehard base that supports his agenda. And they will never see what he is doing, until it has all been irreparably done too them.
The closing of the Element TV plant and the loss of these jobs is only the beginning, there will be more of this to come under DJT’s MAGA.
Then just like all through history, it will be a Democratic POTUS, House and Senate that will be charged with cleaning up the mess, if at all possible. And when everything is on the right foot again, the deficit is way down, or gone and we have a surplus budget, well then nothing else will do, but to put the same incompetent republican party back in control so they can screw everything up all over again.
If we can ever break this cycle, maybe we will have a real chance of ongoing progress and prosperity. I can only hope. I should live so long!
Eddie
The closing of the Element TV plant and the loss of these jobs is only the beginning, there will be more of this to come under DJT’s MAGA.
Then just like all through history, it will be a Democratic POTUS, House and Senate that will be charged with cleaning up the mess, if at all possible. And when everything is on the right foot again, the deficit is way down, or gone and we have a surplus budget, well then nothing else will do, but to put the same incompetent republican party back in control so they can screw everything up all over again.
If we can ever break this cycle, maybe we will have a real chance of ongoing progress and prosperity. I can only hope. I should live so long!
Eddie
I deleted the above post because I forgot I wasn’t in the DL forum, and I’m glad I realized it right after I hit the post button. I aploogize to anyone that may have read it before I could delete it and been offended. I’ll keep my powder dry here on the Super forum in respect of the site rules.
Eddie
Eddie
I googled it and got this, & yes I read CNN's story also
I raise a brow at the part where it says ..... Element made $14.8 million in government subsidies as part of its deal – double the $7.5 million it claimed to have invested in South Carolina. AND .... Element leeched off of the state of South Carolina’s taxpayers until it was no longer profitable for the company to do so … and is now pointing the finger of blame in an effort to evade accountability for its actions.
I raise a brow at the part where it says ..... Element made $14.8 million in government subsidies as part of its deal – double the $7.5 million it claimed to have invested in South Carolina. AND .... Element leeched off of the state of South Carolina’s taxpayers until it was no longer profitable for the company to do so … and is now pointing the finger of blame in an effort to evade accountability for its actions.
The book "the Fall of the American Consumer Electronics Industry" is highly illustrative of what happens when a nation with a protectionist industrial policy targets the industry of a free-market nation. (In other words, what started in the early 60s and culminated in the lates 80s with a mopping-up operation between Japan and the US.)
The same pattern has been repeated in many industries and is occurring right now in white goods.
https://www.amazon.com/Fall-U-S-Consumer-Electronics-Industry/dp/0899308805
"This work traces the history and background of the once great American consumer electronics manufacturing industry, an industry that was plagued and finally destroyed by an American-Japanese cartel subverting enforcement of our traditional trade laws. The work is not a Japan-bashing diatribe, but a call for changes in Washington, and a return to free trade in our domestic and foreign commerce."
The book is highly footnoted and contains many of the original corespondences between trade officials and representitives of American industry... In other words, it's pretty hard to deny what really occurred,
To watch the media fret over the loss of 126 "screwdriver jobs" after the loss of an entire industry (employing thousands in R&D and other back-office functions, as well as actual assembly) is to watch a political agenda unfold, rather than a sincere interest in informing the public.
For example, a very simple and undeniable truth to be widely publicized is that European tariffs on American automobiles is 4x what is imposed by the US. That's a situation which has existed for decades. Might I ask where their "outrage" was hidden during that time?
The same pattern has been repeated in many industries and is occurring right now in white goods.
https://www.amazon.com/Fall-U-S-Consumer-Electronics-Industry/dp/0899308805
"This work traces the history and background of the once great American consumer electronics manufacturing industry, an industry that was plagued and finally destroyed by an American-Japanese cartel subverting enforcement of our traditional trade laws. The work is not a Japan-bashing diatribe, but a call for changes in Washington, and a return to free trade in our domestic and foreign commerce."
The book is highly footnoted and contains many of the original corespondences between trade officials and representitives of American industry... In other words, it's pretty hard to deny what really occurred,
To watch the media fret over the loss of 126 "screwdriver jobs" after the loss of an entire industry (employing thousands in R&D and other back-office functions, as well as actual assembly) is to watch a political agenda unfold, rather than a sincere interest in informing the public.
For example, a very simple and undeniable truth to be widely publicized is that European tariffs on American automobiles is 4x what is imposed by the US. That's a situation which has existed for decades. Might I ask where their "outrage" was hidden during that time?
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
vacerator
Well-known member
Ok, fine, well
they make/made TV's, and my neighbors have had theirs for several years now, of course they are not at home during the day, hardly on weekends, so it isn't on all that often.
Other companies have profited from tax subsidies and, or government contracts supported via tax revenue. Ex; Blackwater, and Haliburton. Also, every major undertaking during the great depression was federally funded. Hoover dam, Tennesse Valley Authority dams and resivoir's, etc. Even the Golden Gate bridge, Bay bridge, Empire state building, Pulaski Skyway, etc., etc. had at least partial state and or federal subsidy. All created employment. Junk in, junk back out is the bottom line, as we witness 2004, through 2009.
TV's are used in the home/RV, etc.
I may upgrade my membership to include as the tub turns, and D/L when I receive the remainder of my fathers inheritance, sans any capital gains tax, as part is a real estate sale.
I've always been frugal, and having plenty of money is new to us. It will not burn through our pockets. Had my folks not been so frugal, they're wouldn't have been anything left.
they make/made TV's, and my neighbors have had theirs for several years now, of course they are not at home during the day, hardly on weekends, so it isn't on all that often.
Other companies have profited from tax subsidies and, or government contracts supported via tax revenue. Ex; Blackwater, and Haliburton. Also, every major undertaking during the great depression was federally funded. Hoover dam, Tennesse Valley Authority dams and resivoir's, etc. Even the Golden Gate bridge, Bay bridge, Empire state building, Pulaski Skyway, etc., etc. had at least partial state and or federal subsidy. All created employment. Junk in, junk back out is the bottom line, as we witness 2004, through 2009.
TV's are used in the home/RV, etc.
I may upgrade my membership to include as the tub turns, and D/L when I receive the remainder of my fathers inheritance, sans any capital gains tax, as part is a real estate sale.
I've always been frugal, and having plenty of money is new to us. It will not burn through our pockets. Had my folks not been so frugal, they're wouldn't have been anything left.
Carmine ....
I have read that book and highly enjoyed it. I think it should be required reading for anyone that thinks the economic world we live in today is face value or what they only read at selective media outlets.
The book again is: "The Fall of the American Consumer Electronics Industry"
and it isn't just the Electronics Industry that it describes, it really is describing what has/is taking place across most industries today.
I have read that book and highly enjoyed it. I think it should be required reading for anyone that thinks the economic world we live in today is face value or what they only read at selective media outlets.
The book again is: "The Fall of the American Consumer Electronics Industry"
and it isn't just the Electronics Industry that it describes, it really is describing what has/is taking place across most industries today.
vacerator
Well-known member
Nothing ventured,
nothing gained. Once the beurocrats or nay sayers were through with Nicoli Tesla, and trying to bury Edison, I think the American electric development was also subsidized, as was the telephone industry. Many people made big money investing into AT&T.
Seems it may soon be a monopoly once again. The Kroger Co. is nearly also one.
The economy is different than 50 years ago. Are there many TV repair men/women left?
Nations which had little to no economy of scale then are now further developed nations contributing to the entire global economy.
Poland's economy for example grew 6% per year through last decade, and still is.
There have even been improvements in S. Korea, the Phillipines, Viet Nam, and of course China is much better off, if partially at our expense.
Is money a tool to use through life, or to have sit around?
People are the purpose for which money should be used, not solely people used to make money for hoarders of the money.
It's a very large picture, and can never be a perfect world for any one nation.
Utopia does not exist.
nothing gained. Once the beurocrats or nay sayers were through with Nicoli Tesla, and trying to bury Edison, I think the American electric development was also subsidized, as was the telephone industry. Many people made big money investing into AT&T.
Seems it may soon be a monopoly once again. The Kroger Co. is nearly also one.
The economy is different than 50 years ago. Are there many TV repair men/women left?
Nations which had little to no economy of scale then are now further developed nations contributing to the entire global economy.
Poland's economy for example grew 6% per year through last decade, and still is.
There have even been improvements in S. Korea, the Phillipines, Viet Nam, and of course China is much better off, if partially at our expense.
Is money a tool to use through life, or to have sit around?
People are the purpose for which money should be used, not solely people used to make money for hoarders of the money.
It's a very large picture, and can never be a perfect world for any one nation.
Utopia does not exist.
sfh074
I'm sure you and I are among a pretty small club of those who have read the book. On and off, I'm working on a book about my time in the auto industry, which I believe is also world's different than how it's portrayed in popular media... However, I believe the book is so critical to understanding (especially post WWII) US trade policy that I dedicate a chapter to it, fully crediting the author, who I'm sorry to say is now deceased.
I pasted a few excerpts below. I'm interested in your thoughts since you have read the book. For others, it shows the depths of detail contained in the book.
-------
... I’ve also devoted some time to the subject because many rightfully wonder why American manufacturers don’t speak up more stridently; if in fact they are being so disadvantaged by imports and exclusion from foreign markets. It’s possible that they may have looked at the outcome for Zenith Radio Corporation, which did choose legal remedies, pleading (and suing) for the enforcement of internationally recognized anti-dumping laws, anti-monopoly laws and prosecution for U.S. Customs fraud; only to be repeatedly undermined by involvement from our own State Department and Justice Department. The waters of international law enforcement get very murky when politics are involved. Zenith demonstrably resisted the temptation to off-shore its manufacturing, research and development for decades after its competitors had moved their manufacturing to Asia, or closed their doors altogether. By the early 1990s, this industry-leader was reduced to a shell of its former self. Zenith’s ace-in-the-hole, a compatible system of HDTV was their only proprietary asset of any value....
...Japanese manufacturers had captured the entire U.S. portable radio market with a similar (although less lucrative) dumping scheme. Thus by 1968, facing declining sales and finding no further means of cost reduction, Zenith was forced to end U.S. production of portable transistor radios. They were the last holdout. Zenith executives had seen the handwriting on the wall for the more profitable television market as early as 1960, and reasoned that American competition would lower prices in the Japanese market, thus ending the cartel’s ability to endure losses from predatory dumping in the United States. Beginning in 1961, Zenith decided to enter the Japanese market.
Zenith management contacted C. Itoh and Company, a major Japanese trading company for help in distributing Zenith products in Japan, which had proven popular at trade fairs and demonstrations throughout Japan. However, this effort would soon meet with failure as Zenith was met with a virtual firewall of Japanese government protectionism. In a translated letter from C. Itoh, it was explained, “[Ministry of International Trade and Industry] (MITI) would not allocate the currency, because Zenith products are exceedingly popular in the market here.”_
Undaunted, Zenith management made a second attempt to begin importing, this time though another trading company by the name of Nichimen. Again, the effort proved futile. A final letter was received from Nichimen to Zenith management, dated May 16, 19632
After several publicity and news releases on the intention of our company to market Zenith’s product line, there was an abrupt halt to the entire program. Although the reasons for this halt have never been fully explained to me, I feel they were due to the following reasons:
The Japanese Electronic Industry Association’s pressure to the Government;
The Japanese Electronic Industry’s pressure to the leading chain and department stores;
An attempt to pressure our company and persuade us by various means not to indulge too aggressively in the distribution of these products.
A third, all-out effort was made with C. Itoh in 1963. This was again met with resistance and delay. Eventually, the idea of exporting into Japan was given up.
As had been the case with portable radios, the dumping margins were so great that attempts to cut costs and match prices were simply impossible. Without enforcement of various Federal anti-dumping, anti-trust and duty laws, it was felt that U.S. consumer electronics manufacturing would be destroyed. The remaining U.S. television manufacturers filed a petition with the Treasury department in 1968 pleading for enforcement of the Antidumping Act of 1921. Zenith’s own president, Joseph Wright, carrying the weight of what was now the United States largest television manufacturer, personally asked Congress and the executive branch to expose this unlawful conduct, and put a stop to it as required by Federal law. Standing in opposition to this petition was RCA. Any successful attack on the Japanese cartel would threaten RCA’s multi-million dollar royalty income, and diminish the need for their technical assistance. In filings with the Treasury department, Zenith demonstrated that 19-inch color TV’s were being sold in Japan for over $500, while the same sets were sold through American retailers for less than $300. On higher-end models, the dumping margins were even more lucrative.
I'm sure you and I are among a pretty small club of those who have read the book. On and off, I'm working on a book about my time in the auto industry, which I believe is also world's different than how it's portrayed in popular media... However, I believe the book is so critical to understanding (especially post WWII) US trade policy that I dedicate a chapter to it, fully crediting the author, who I'm sorry to say is now deceased.
I pasted a few excerpts below. I'm interested in your thoughts since you have read the book. For others, it shows the depths of detail contained in the book.
-------
... I’ve also devoted some time to the subject because many rightfully wonder why American manufacturers don’t speak up more stridently; if in fact they are being so disadvantaged by imports and exclusion from foreign markets. It’s possible that they may have looked at the outcome for Zenith Radio Corporation, which did choose legal remedies, pleading (and suing) for the enforcement of internationally recognized anti-dumping laws, anti-monopoly laws and prosecution for U.S. Customs fraud; only to be repeatedly undermined by involvement from our own State Department and Justice Department. The waters of international law enforcement get very murky when politics are involved. Zenith demonstrably resisted the temptation to off-shore its manufacturing, research and development for decades after its competitors had moved their manufacturing to Asia, or closed their doors altogether. By the early 1990s, this industry-leader was reduced to a shell of its former self. Zenith’s ace-in-the-hole, a compatible system of HDTV was their only proprietary asset of any value....
...Japanese manufacturers had captured the entire U.S. portable radio market with a similar (although less lucrative) dumping scheme. Thus by 1968, facing declining sales and finding no further means of cost reduction, Zenith was forced to end U.S. production of portable transistor radios. They were the last holdout. Zenith executives had seen the handwriting on the wall for the more profitable television market as early as 1960, and reasoned that American competition would lower prices in the Japanese market, thus ending the cartel’s ability to endure losses from predatory dumping in the United States. Beginning in 1961, Zenith decided to enter the Japanese market.
Zenith management contacted C. Itoh and Company, a major Japanese trading company for help in distributing Zenith products in Japan, which had proven popular at trade fairs and demonstrations throughout Japan. However, this effort would soon meet with failure as Zenith was met with a virtual firewall of Japanese government protectionism. In a translated letter from C. Itoh, it was explained, “[Ministry of International Trade and Industry] (MITI) would not allocate the currency, because Zenith products are exceedingly popular in the market here.”_
Undaunted, Zenith management made a second attempt to begin importing, this time though another trading company by the name of Nichimen. Again, the effort proved futile. A final letter was received from Nichimen to Zenith management, dated May 16, 19632
After several publicity and news releases on the intention of our company to market Zenith’s product line, there was an abrupt halt to the entire program. Although the reasons for this halt have never been fully explained to me, I feel they were due to the following reasons:
The Japanese Electronic Industry Association’s pressure to the Government;
The Japanese Electronic Industry’s pressure to the leading chain and department stores;
An attempt to pressure our company and persuade us by various means not to indulge too aggressively in the distribution of these products.
A third, all-out effort was made with C. Itoh in 1963. This was again met with resistance and delay. Eventually, the idea of exporting into Japan was given up.
As had been the case with portable radios, the dumping margins were so great that attempts to cut costs and match prices were simply impossible. Without enforcement of various Federal anti-dumping, anti-trust and duty laws, it was felt that U.S. consumer electronics manufacturing would be destroyed. The remaining U.S. television manufacturers filed a petition with the Treasury department in 1968 pleading for enforcement of the Antidumping Act of 1921. Zenith’s own president, Joseph Wright, carrying the weight of what was now the United States largest television manufacturer, personally asked Congress and the executive branch to expose this unlawful conduct, and put a stop to it as required by Federal law. Standing in opposition to this petition was RCA. Any successful attack on the Japanese cartel would threaten RCA’s multi-million dollar royalty income, and diminish the need for their technical assistance. In filings with the Treasury department, Zenith demonstrated that 19-inch color TV’s were being sold in Japan for over $500, while the same sets were sold through American retailers for less than $300. On higher-end models, the dumping margins were even more lucrative.
vacerator
Well-known member
Today Japan
is not an electronics leader either.
For every action, there is a reaction. They bombed us at Pearl harbor, we killed several hundred thousand of their people, then we helped them rebuild, and fostered their industries.
Some say we allowed Japan to ruin our auto and electronics industries, and today's young people have other options to earn good livings.
It's now history. The past is the past. We've moved on.
is not an electronics leader either.
For every action, there is a reaction. They bombed us at Pearl harbor, we killed several hundred thousand of their people, then we helped them rebuild, and fostered their industries.
Some say we allowed Japan to ruin our auto and electronics industries, and today's young people have other options to earn good livings.
It's now history. The past is the past. We've moved on.
vacerator
For one thing the only part of this that relates to "Japan" are the historical occurrences. Are you making an argument that people shouldn't read, discuss, or learn from history because "it's the past, move on!"
...when in fact, it's not the past. It's very much the present. Please note the date of the story... recent, ongoing yet nothing to do with our current President.
-
BY CHRIS GILLIS |THURSDAY, JULY 21, 2016
The U.S. Commerce Department on Wednesday has preliminary determined that antidumping duties should be assessed on imports of large residential washing machines from China.
Dumping occurs when a foreign company sells a product in the United States at less than fair value.
In its investigation, Commerce preliminarily found dumping has occurred by Nanjing LG-Panda, Appliances Co. Ltd. and Suzhou Samsung Electronics Co.
The department also calculated a preliminary dumping margin of 80.49 percent for all other Chinese washer producers/exporters.
For one thing the only part of this that relates to "Japan" are the historical occurrences. Are you making an argument that people shouldn't read, discuss, or learn from history because "it's the past, move on!"
...when in fact, it's not the past. It's very much the present. Please note the date of the story... recent, ongoing yet nothing to do with our current President.
-
BY CHRIS GILLIS |THURSDAY, JULY 21, 2016
The U.S. Commerce Department on Wednesday has preliminary determined that antidumping duties should be assessed on imports of large residential washing machines from China.
Dumping occurs when a foreign company sells a product in the United States at less than fair value.
In its investigation, Commerce preliminarily found dumping has occurred by Nanjing LG-Panda, Appliances Co. Ltd. and Suzhou Samsung Electronics Co.
The department also calculated a preliminary dumping margin of 80.49 percent for all other Chinese washer producers/exporters.
vacerator
Well-known member
Not at all Carmine.
Books are for people to read at will.
All I meant was the past is that, and some things are beyond our control, so I don't live in it.
I was in corporate middle level management for many years. I've seen many changes. I also know many in the auto industry, hourly, and otherwise, contract, and direct.
We had a conversation at breakfast about Kroger not accepting Visa at this current time pending a new contract with Visa.
Why now? Past contract renewals were prompt, and any large entity can renegotiate in plenty of time before one expires.
Many I know can tell you, I've been fairly insightful and accurate as to why things transpire. I read between the lines so to speak. I think Kroger wants to lose enough customers ate least short term to lower it's bottom line so the FTC stays off their backs about my afore mentioned monopoly.
Now I may be way off, but it's my preminition.
Those with the 24K gold rule, and they more often than not get mostly what they want. Out of our control. The others blow smoke. They all know the same powerful people.
Books are for people to read at will.
All I meant was the past is that, and some things are beyond our control, so I don't live in it.
I was in corporate middle level management for many years. I've seen many changes. I also know many in the auto industry, hourly, and otherwise, contract, and direct.
We had a conversation at breakfast about Kroger not accepting Visa at this current time pending a new contract with Visa.
Why now? Past contract renewals were prompt, and any large entity can renegotiate in plenty of time before one expires.
Many I know can tell you, I've been fairly insightful and accurate as to why things transpire. I read between the lines so to speak. I think Kroger wants to lose enough customers ate least short term to lower it's bottom line so the FTC stays off their backs about my afore mentioned monopoly.
Now I may be way off, but it's my preminition.
Those with the 24K gold rule, and they more often than not get mostly what they want. Out of our control. The others blow smoke. They all know the same powerful people.
Not free trade
Free trade I feel is incorrectly named. Disciplined trade is a better name. Discipline is necessary in free trade else it is always taken over by the greedy every time. The book outlines this with example after example how greed steps on great ideas of invention. For a global economy to thrive, there has to be a set of rules agreed upon by all and these rules followed by all to stifle this intrinsic greed. The rules are in place and have all been agreed upon. No new rules are really necessary at this point, but still today an enormous player in the global economy doesn’t think the rules apply to them. To prove the point, if the US did what China does with their food supply because of sheer greed, there would have already been a revolution in this country. Thank goodness our founding fathers understood this intrinsic greed and we continue to limit monopolies from forming.
www.spiegel.de
Free trade I feel is incorrectly named. Disciplined trade is a better name. Discipline is necessary in free trade else it is always taken over by the greedy every time. The book outlines this with example after example how greed steps on great ideas of invention. For a global economy to thrive, there has to be a set of rules agreed upon by all and these rules followed by all to stifle this intrinsic greed. The rules are in place and have all been agreed upon. No new rules are really necessary at this point, but still today an enormous player in the global economy doesn’t think the rules apply to them. To prove the point, if the US did what China does with their food supply because of sheer greed, there would have already been a revolution in this country. Thank goodness our founding fathers understood this intrinsic greed and we continue to limit monopolies from forming.
Greed for Profit: China Being Poisoned by Its Food Industry, Says Author
Antibiotics in the meat, pesticide used as preservatives, mercury in the drinking water -- Chinese author Zhou Qing says China's food industry is poisoning the country in its greed for profit. If ordinary people knew, there would be a revolution, he adds.
vacerator
Well-known member
Yes Ben,
That's why I thought Boeing put their newest plant there.
Old saying though; the toes you step on today may be connected to the butt you have to kiss tomorrow.
The USA has also paid farmers not to grow too much. China was nearly on the verge of starvation. We had to sell whet to Russia in 1977.
I read yesterday a US container ship full of soybeans is drifting at sea off of South China.
I don't know where it's all going, or how. Like I said, nothing we can do about it. Let our Govt. try with tariff's, sanctions, etc. If it goes sour, we may not recover from the next crash. That too may also be in part at least deliberate.
Live long, and proper everyone.
That's why I thought Boeing put their newest plant there.
Old saying though; the toes you step on today may be connected to the butt you have to kiss tomorrow.
The USA has also paid farmers not to grow too much. China was nearly on the verge of starvation. We had to sell whet to Russia in 1977.
I read yesterday a US container ship full of soybeans is drifting at sea off of South China.
I don't know where it's all going, or how. Like I said, nothing we can do about it. Let our Govt. try with tariff's, sanctions, etc. If it goes sour, we may not recover from the next crash. That too may also be in part at least deliberate.
Live long, and proper everyone.
vacerator
Well-known member
Bud made another good point.
I did a bit of web shopping in Rome. I closed in on Google street view map of a mall near Rome, Italy. The same Weber Genesis grill which costs $449 here had a price tag on it for $499 Euro's. That's about the same price.
Yes reading, and shopping is good.
I did a bit of web shopping in Rome. I closed in on Google street view map of a mall near Rome, Italy. The same Weber Genesis grill which costs $449 here had a price tag on it for $499 Euro's. That's about the same price.
Yes reading, and shopping is good.
