Energy star water factor question

[jerrod6]

Mark

In your picture is this the minimum amount the washer will fill to? Many FL adjust the amount of water to the load size so wouldn't your tub contain more water than this if it contained clothes?

 

[mark_wpduet]

Jerrod.

Yes, it would. If I tossed clothes in they would absorb that water thus the machine would fill back to that level in the picture. Prior to the adjustment, if I filled the machine without clothes on a normal/heavy duty cycle, it would fill with about 2 inches of the baffle not touching the water, now the baffle is completely submerged and then some. I can tell when I'm running a load that the "sloshing" sound is much more pronounced!

 

[electron800]

I've often wondered if US FL's used less water than

But from seeing that picture, I'd say that even prior to adjustment that is about the normal level for a modern front loader.

This confirms for me that any problems that people have had with these machines producing poor results is not down to them using too little water.

This means the poor results many people have had in the U.S. from modern front loaders must be caused by either cycles being too short or not vigourous enough, low water temp in machines without heaters, poorly designed HE detergents or simply incorrect usage.

I think it is most probably a combination of cycles being too short and incorrect usage/poorly designed detergents.

As for wear and tear I've never had anything damaged in either a top loader or a front loader. I have only ever used a top loader once or twice, so I can't comment on long term wear but family members have clothes which are about 25 years old and still regularly being worn and washed in front loaders and are not showing signs of wear.

Matt

 

[revvinkevin]

My two and a half cents... hope you don't get jealous!

Below you can see my 12 year old (3.1 cu.ft) Frigidaire washer which, by todays standards uses a HUGE amount of water (LOL).

I did not modify the water level at all, but I did modify it so it will tumble as it fills. Originally it would sit still as the water flowed in, then after the water level switch was satisfied, would start tumbling. If I was doing a load of towels or something else that really absorbed the water, it would sometimes stop to re-fill 2 or 3 times, very annoying.

Recently I had an *itch* to get a NEW washer & dryer.... but after doing a load at a friends house in their 2 year old FL LG set I decided to save my $2000 for something else! I did not like the really low water lever AND the long cycle time. It took over an hour to complete the load!

 

[ronhic]

....over an hour...

That is fast for a 'normal' cycle...

Most European (and asian) machines take between 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 hours on the normal cycle.

I only ever use the full cycle if the load is particularly full (or dirty) otherwise I use the quick wash feature. At 40c (warm) that is still 68min....though

 

[aquarius1984]

HMmm

That Frigidaire looks to be a right hash of machines.
(I am aware as to who makes them but its still a right hash)

*Door of Europoean Zanussi/Electrolux
The wash dial and smaller dials are the same as my Grandparents *Belling Wash Wise 1100/1300. (Gorenje) Can you still adjust the part you grip to suit where you want it in relation to the pointer?
*The drum looks somewhat Gorenjeish but not the same as my grandparents. THeirs was somewhat similar to the Hotpoint one in the UK crossed with an old style Bosch.

 

[chestermikeuk]

Frigidaire

Oh Kevin ANOTHER washer!!!...Lol....having seen a range of your front & top loaders at the shops and in action I am mighty impressed with the Frigidaire range & hear great reviews as well!!!, your mate Rich with schnitzels,(hi Rich) introduced us to them at the washer convention many yrs ago!!! simple in design & solid in construction, just what you need, looks a decent water level as well!!! I looked at the newer ones in Omaha last year (not last yr 1997) the ones with the square /round door, if I had to pick one I`d pick Frigidaire!!!

My MaytagAsko really has a good range for features IMHO, variable wash times & cycles, I can do a 95d superquick wash from cold in 48mins with 3 rinses & 1600rpm....similarly if I need long extended for white table clothes after after the vac & washer boys have been round then long can be 2.30hrs...Can also add super rinse up to 7 rinses if needed & high water levels across all programmes,

Happy washing, Mike

 

[revvinkevin]

That Frigidaire looks to be a right hash of machines.

Robert... I'm sorry but I don't know what "right hash" means.

Mike... Another washer? LOL.... well yes I suppose so. But this Frigidaire washer (and matching dryer) has served for the weekly laundry needs since I bought them new almost 12 years ago. We have (probably) done an average of 4 loads per week which works out to roughly 2400 loads run through them. I have to say I've been pleased with their performance and reliability. The ONLY problem I have ever had is.... about two weeks ago I pulled the timer knob to start the machine and the knob came off in my hand! I looked it up on line, 2 days and $18 later it had a new timer knob! (the internet is an amazing thing, isn't it?)

I did not know for a number of years that Electrolux makes this washer for Frigidaire... and they still make it today. I have also seen this same machine sold under the Kenmore and GE names as well.

Yes my friend Rich has the same "square door" set you have pictured and I assume it's also made by E-lux. Differences are it has a "slightly" larger capacity (3.5 cu ft vs. 3.1 for mine), a larger door opening and a lot more cycles. He says he like his a lot, but it's OVERLY sensitive load imbalance when trying to spin.

OH... I almost forgot! While I have not actually timed it, this washer does the "normal" cycle in I believe 35 - 40 minutes. This is for a main wash, 3 rinses and spin after each. If I choose "Heavy wash", that only adds 4 minutes to the main wash time. Being that is has a mechanical timer, even the "extra rinse" option does not lengthen the cycle time . I'm sure I could sit down and time it.... IF inquiring minds really want to know!

 

[mark_wpduet]

Revinkevin

Thanks for that picture. I've always wondered what the water level was like in the older Frigemore's. That tub isn't tilted is it? It does use a good amount of water but I was imagining since it was an older FL washer that it would come up more. But that still uses plenty of water to wash with. Is the rinse level higher? My Duet drum is tilted so its hard to compare, though there is definitely more water in yours than mine. The Duet does rotate as it fills though. I don't think I want to adjust my washer anymore because watching it wash, I feel like there is a good amount of water in there. I turned on the delicate cycle and the water touched the glass door.

 

[revvinkevin]

Frigemore? No, Frigelux!

Hi Mark, to answer your questions....

> No the tub on this one is not tilted. This machine was built (1997) before they started tilting the tubs (or was the Neptune FL out by then? If so I stand corrected)

> The water level is rigidly fixed, no adjustments, no choices, no higher levels for rinses, no "water+" button and no water level adjustment for cycles (like delicates). I have added extra water through the dispenser drawer, but that is the only way it will go higher. As I am pretty happy with it I have no intention of messing with the water level.

The photos below are my older Westinghouse style (Kenmore badged) front loader. It has a water level adjustment (with reset) and the photos below are the lowest level setting and the highest.

 

[autowasherfreak]

I have the washer and dryer in Mike's post, and they are excellent machines. I have no complaints about them at all, with the exception of the cycles being longer. Cleaning wise, I couldn't be more pleased.

 

[mark_wpduet]

Thanks for those pics and taking the time to do that! I emailed Whirlpool asking that they should give the customer the "option" to add more water to their future front loaders. They can still have the energy star rating as the customer can choose the option for more water if they want. LOL Not that they will listen to me but who knows. They replied stating thanks for my input, that they are always looking for customer feedback to improve their appliances. I'm happy with my Duet. It's almost 4 yrs old. I saw the Kenmore HE5t commercial today and they stated "rated best cleaning" machine. Probably by CS. I dunno. Anyway. I'd keep that frigemore. It looks great. I can't believe they STILL make that machine!

 

[newwave1]

Ahh a subject close to my heart.

One of the main factors that are important to me in my laundry process is rinsing. Now with a modern machine it is the first thing to suffer as you can't take any more water away from the wash, so it has to be taken from the rinse water.

They was a period in the early 2000's where manufacturers went abit crazy and some machines on their eco cycles used as little as 39litres!!! far too little. Thankfully they've rised by about 10litres over the past 5years.

Now were abit more fortunate this side of the pond and in europe as all of our water miserly machines (except for a few) have an extra rinse option, and more premium machines have water plus options that increase not only rinse water levels but also the wash water level too!

I currently have a bosch from 1997 which standardly has low water levels, *about a couple of inches deep* with maximum speed interval spins including the spin after the wash* which with low foaming loads is acceptable. However it does have the hidden gem of the higher water level button! which increases the wash water level into the doorseal and then does high rinses and adds a rinse! Which is very fun to watch, aswell as very well performing!!

Attached is a picture of the final rinse water level!

I have to agree that your machines should have the option of a higher water level. Especially with such large load capacity. From watching videos of various US models the low water level in the wash is fine for your robust fabrics as the lift and drop motion of the load is more effective. Too much water will cushion the load. but you do need the load to be well saturated!

I have always believed that water efficency is a good thing when it doesn't come at the expense of the wash!

Here in the uk they had the right idea in the 1990's when being more economical was becoming a priority.

They used the right amount of water so that the machines were efficent but also washed and rinsed well! For example a hoover machine from 1986 used 120Litres *I'm afraid i don't know what that is in gallons* & then a hoover machine from 1996 used 68litres. based on a 5kg load.

The scarey thing is now a modern 8kg machine uses less than the machine from 1997!!!!

I do think it would pay for us to write to some manufacturers and give them this website if they wanted to hear how their machines should work. Then people would be very satisfied with their future purchases!!!

Darren

 

[ronhic]

Agreed....

Darren,

I personally thing you are right. There should be an option for a higher water level such as that offered by Miele. Gorenje used to have the option years ago and my mothers old Asea did too. All she had to do was hold the 'gentle' wash button in and the machine would take extra water. Let it out and the machine would continue with the 'normal' cycle but with more water in the wash.

My Westinghouse (think Zanussi ecovalve or John Lewis machine) uses about 68lt on its normal cycle for an 'Australian 6.5kg' load. The same drum in the UK would do 6kg. Go figure. Anyway, I find that it rinses quite well. The normal long cotton cycle has 3 rinses that don't hit the door, though the last is a little deeper. On the quick cycle though, the 2 rinses are about the same height as the one in your picture. In all cases there is a spin between stages.

Ultimately, I would like to be able to completely customise my wash cycle and think this should be an option. It wouldn't be hard for a manufacturer to offer this either....

Ideally I would like

- prewash option on every cotton/synthetic cycle and 30m/30c
- to choose between 15-60min wash component where at 15min, the machine automatically used water say an inch above the bellows but could be adjusted for wash times longer than this
- between 2-5 rinses each with a variable water level but higher default if 2 choosen
- choose to have a strong interim spin rather than what I am 'told' is correct.

My ideal cycle would be

- 20-40min wash at low/medium
- 3 rinses the first of which would be 'med/high', then 1 'low' and final 'medium'
- 1000 rpm 2min interim spins
- 1200-1600 final 10minutes with the final 4-5 min at top rpm

Total time 72-92 min....and a 'guestimate' given my current machines water usage at about 75ltrs

 

[newwave1]

Ronhic!
I'm glad you agree lol. Your westinghouse is just like my parents AEG which is essentially an electrolux machine with an AEG badge.

The quick option on the machine operates identically to your westinghouse. The rinse levels are really good and you still get fast interm spins!

Though i've selected rinse + on the machine perminantly so all the rinses are deep but the spins are slower which i think is purely so the machine reduces wear and tear as my bosch does the same thing with higher water level selected!

One thing i forgot to mention is recirculation jets! I did read somewhere that below a certain water usage a machine should have a recirculation jet. I find them very good. except the only grumble is as it comes back on for a rinse it dumps some suds back on the load!!

My bosch has a cascade fill which starts when the machine is spinning at maximum speed and fills as it slows down and then tumbles to the required level! Which i find very effective.

Don't whirlpool duets do this? can anyone confirm for me?

I have to agree that manufacturers should look more into the custom features.Then you can truely say you get the ultimate wash as it is set to your requirements!

My ideal cycle would be water up to the rim of the drum like my old zanussi does.

Slow tumbles for the first 10minutes, then long tumbles with short pauses for about 20minutes maybe throw in a couple of distribution tumbles to power the water through,

The fast spin after the wash with a cascade fill up to about 4inches up the door glass for the rinses and as my bosch does a guarenteed rinse time *irregardless of the fill time it will rinse for 5mins per rinse* then a final spin with minor faffing for balancing making its way quickly up to max spin.

All in all about 1hr-1hr 10mins!

Darren

 

[ronhic]

What do manufacturers really know.....

......we the users should be put in charge of product development and lets see what we come up with...

I will say one thing, there won't be a machine out there that won't rinse properly and they will still use a small amount of water when compared to 15 yrs ago....

...and I reckon skin complaints will reduce as a direct result!

 

[newwave1]

Amen to that!!

 

[mark_wpduet]

Yes! The Duets *do* the cascade rinse/spin. The drum slows down while water is being sprayed on the clothes It maintains a slow spin as the rinse water fills the drum. It does this for maybe two min's, then starts tumbling and still filling with water until the water level is reached. Honestly. I think it uses the same water to wash with as does to rinse with. Mine will rinse three times when extra rinse is chosen. With my water level adjusted a bit higher than before. I'm pretty happy with it. Though I'd still LOVE a water plus button or even a water plus rinse button, so the rinse will be deeper. I wonder how much water the modern FL's can handle without doing any damage? I know when I chose delicate cycle, the water touches the glass, but at the same time, its a delicate cycle, so the machine it very calm during this cycle.

 

[ronhic]

One day...

manufacturers will listen....

....one day

 

[launderess]

Cascade Filling

Or whatever you boys are speaking of, is found on commercial and laundromat front loaders all the time.

After spin machine starts to fill while the draining valve (these machines do not have pumps), remains open, thus water comes in and goes out, all while the drum is tumbling one way. After awhile valve closes and machine begins to fill.

Think this is a feature that can be disabled or set by laundromat owner, as only the large 50lb machine will do this. It also is set for four rinses, while the smaller machines have three.

 

[chestermikeuk]

"One Day Manufacturers Will Listen"

What makes you think they arnt now!!! with the on-line blogs & customer feedback forums, most manufacturers and detergent companies are regularly viewing on-line information about their companies & products for feedback!! I know for a fact that the R&D & training for P & G & Lever UK read AW forums!!!

The issue is "will they convert the feedback into results that we want!!!I regularly feedback pros n cons about new machines & detergent products, my big feedback gripe at the moment is the spin/rinse programming...the problem is with detergents is that people regularly overdose!! with the newer machines having the narrowest of gaps between the two drums its imperative that any machine can cope with sudz lock or able to detect & clear the suds & detergent residues by means of extra rinses or high water levels until clear!!

The narrowness of the drums almost acts like a Mr. Whippy machine, it tends to aerate the detergents while spinning and make the situation worse, the easiest way to do that is open the cold water valve and have the water (assuming its coming into the top of the drum) spraying onto the spinning drum....the older Servis, Hotpoint & Hoover machines did this, same as Laundress is saying with commercial machines,

Of course the key issue is keeping within the EU efficiency ratings and to use a little water as possible, now while you may think spraying water over a spinning drum is wasteful if it does the trick of clearing the sudz quicker, then less water is required on the deep rinse!!

AND, the more we all feedback to the manufacturers, the more possibilities that programmes & detergents will be adapted!!!

 

[chestermikeuk]

Washers

Hi Mark, what make/model of washing machine did you have before the Duet?? and what are the likes / dislikes between the two??

Cheers, Mike

 

[ronhic]

V-Zug

That's it....

I want to adora V-Zug

 

[launderess]

One Must Understand

It is not purely the fault of appliance makers.

On both sides of the pond, regulations via government are shaping things on the ground. Worse still persons wishing to purchase, and those seeking to produce appliances that are not energy efficient or careful with resources risk scorn from the Raffia Mafia.

Simply put aside from commercial washing machines, which fall under different regulations, if any, get used to doing laundry with less water for modern machines.

Of course the secret is to keep using vintage washers long as possible. Intend to keep my Miele going long as parts can be had, even if one has to scour obscure warehouses in Germany.

L.

 

[toggleswitch2]

Scary that 4 and 5 inches is now impressive, as water levels go.

~I did not modify the water level at all, but I did modify it so it will tumble as it fills.

Would love to know how to do this. I too have a FridGeMore-Lux simialr to yours.
A private email would great if you choose not to post it here.

 

[mark_wpduet]

Chestermikeuk

Prior the the Duet I had a Whirlpool top load washer. I don't know the model. It was bought in 2002 and I had it for three years. I sold it to my sister who works for Whirpool in Greenville OH who got me a discount on the duets. I noticed when moving the old unit and loading it in the truck to take it to her that there was a small amount of oil on the laundry room floor. The thing is now 6.5 yrs old and still working according to her. I liked the machine. It was 3.2 cu ft capacity it had the xtra roll agitator that pushed clothes to the bottom; it also had extra rinse. When I bought it I was looking for four things. Large capacity (3.2 cu ft at the time was the largest I could find for a TL), extra rinse, the xtra roll agitator and the speckled porcelain tub (not plastic) .

My grandma had a Kenmore top loader from 1984 that just died last year. It had the dual action agitator and I always felt it rolled the clothes over better so that's the type of agitator I was looking for. I went from doing six loads a week in the Whirlpool TL to four loads per week in the duet.

Speaking of my Duet. I want to add something. I just started using Tide HE powder, prior to me using that, I always used Sears HE powder in the big bucket. I can't find it anymore so I bought a large box of tide he and just poured it in the pail. Since using the Tide HE. I can smell it on the clothes once finished washing if I don't use extra rinse. If I do use extra rinse, I smell nothing at all. The Sears detergent isn't heavily perfumed so it wasn't as noticeable as the Tide HE. The person mentioned above about the CASCADE rinse. The Duet does not drain the rinse water it adds as its spinning, it retains the water and clothes just slosh through as the tub spins slowly.

 

[newwave1]

Hi there mark!
It was me that mentioned the cascade rinse Seems your whirlpool rinse is just like my bosch! I find the cascade very beneficial with the water hitting the clothes at speed and then the cascade remains as the machine tumbles and fills to the required level!

I do like those duets. Dreamspace was there name here in the UK! i wanted one when they came out!

Darren

 

[launderess]

P&G Holds Patents For Scent

Designed to remain on laundry after rinsing, drying and for extended periods in cupboards/closets. Apparently some focus or marketing group asked consumers what they found lacking in laundry detergents, and a repeated request was for the "fresh scent" to remain longer.

Soo P&G came up with perfumes that are designed to remain, which is why one has a hard time getting rid of the stench, sorry, smell. This is more easily noticed on the various highly scented detergents like "Lavender Rose" and such.

 

[ronhic]

....and that explains

....why some of our laundry powders have such a powerful fragrance...

I can't stand most Colgate-Palmolive products and Radiant is another highly perfumed offender....

 

[toggleswitch2]

Long-lasting "fresh-scent"?

Subtlety is a lost art, apparently.

Sad that such masking odors will cover the fact that the laundry is often still dirty, even right out of the "energy-star" washer [read: no-water machine].

The parallel is a freined of mine who uses incense in his home rather than enmptyng the cat-box, scrubbing the toilet, dusting (which is definitely needed from the incense)vacuuming and moping. Who exaclty are you fooling? No one.