Energy wasters

[2-drumsallergy]

Which? report : Detergents | 01 December 2005

Biological detergents

We tested biological detergents to see how the big brand names compare to supermarket own-brands.

We tested the leading powders and tablets on 15 stains – from fats such as butter, to proteins such as egg yolk, and vegetable stains such as blueberry. And we checked how they affect clothes’ colour and whiteness, too.

We tested biological powder, non-biological powder, biological tablets and colour powder.

Biological powder
The big-name brands’ biggest lead over supermarkets is in biological powders. They knocked spots off the own brands at removing stains. Ariel has the edge over Persil because it gives the fabled ‘whitest whites’.

Biological tablets
Tablets are easy to use, but our tests show that popping a couple in with the wash gives worse results than a biological powder. They’re pretty hopeless at removing fatty stains.
We haven’t named any Best Buys because none of the tablets is that much better than the others.

Non-bio and colour
Non-biological detergents performed well in our tests but the results of the colour detergents were disappointing.
Non-biological powder

Non-bio detergents are best for people who have eczema and dermatitis. They don’t contain enzymes, the part of ordinary detergents that break down food stains. But the Ariel, Persil and Fairy non-bios are still almost as good as the best bio powders.

Colour powder
Colour powders don’t have bleaching agents, which break down the coloured dyes in the fabric. This means they can be poor at tackling vegetable stains, such as tea, wine and tomato ketchup. Our Best Buy is Persil because it’s excellent at coping with protein stains, such as bolognese sauce and baby food.

 

[carlstock]

May I Just Say…?

Hey, Jon and Nick!

Here are some points:

• Ariel is generally the best performing laundry detergent in the UK, particularly for stain removal, although tests by Which? found that Persil made for ‘better’ whites.

• Ariel can be rather difficult to rinse out, even with a premium brand washer.

• Ariel is heavily loaded with perfumes and other ingredients that P&G refuse to rule out as potentially harmful. What about GM enzymes?

• If one uses a green energy supplier or uses a wind turbine or solar panel on their home, it is up to them whether they use higher temperatures.

• Using chemicals – that is, powerful detergents like Ariel – to clean clothes at lower temperatures is alarming. The damage done to the environment by such powerful detergents is worrying, along with much of the unknown safety information regarding individual ingredients in products like Ariel. Far better to be kinder to the environment by using green energy to power a washing machine on a high temperature wash and thus pumping out fewer chemicals into the sewage system. Basically, is it better to use high temperatures with a mild detergent or low temperatures with a heavy duty detergent? Higher temperatures can in some cases make up for a weaker detergent, along not always, and some stains may require enzymes.

• Using fabric conditioners can lead to a build-up of slime inside washers that is not immediately apparent. This can also lead to a build-up of mould, which can be hazardous. Solution, even if it’s not as good: don’t use conditioner, or use Comfort Pearls instead.

• Regular use of liquid/capsule detergent can corrode certain parts of washers, as well as causing the same problems with fabric conditioners (see above). Excessive dosing of liquid/capsule detergent can also cause corrosion.

• Regular use of colour detergents – power/tablets or liquid/capsules – can lead to a build-up of slime and mould. This is mostly because there is no bleach in such detergents – liquids/capsules never have a bleach in them.

• Regular low-temperature washes cause problems for many owners’ machines (see above points regarding slime and mould).

All of the bulbs in my house are energy saving bulbs, and I started using them in 1993. I use modern, advanced consumer electronics products from manufacturers that have a long-term history of low-standby power consumption. My Freeview receivers (that’s digital terrestrial TV to everyone outside the UK ) use less than 1W when on standby. Many other makes use far more. At night, they are completely disconnected from the mains, as are all of my electronics except the Sky+ boxes, which have to be on 24/7.

Most of my hi-fi equipment has no standby modes at all, so they are shut off completely. Also, most of my consumer electronics products – and this is something quite unusual these days – are made in the UK or elsewhere in Europe. They are actually built here or in Europe, not just assembled.

We also recycle as much as we can, as well as buying local produce where possible. (Nick, fancy some Tiptree jam? Yum!)

I for one have to wash my bed linen at 60 degrees C because of the existence of dust mites. Such a high temperature kills the mites of course.

Anyway, all I am saying here is that what counts is our experience. Do we use a heavy duty detergent like Ariel along with a low temperature? Or do we use a more eco-friendly detergent like Ecover at a high temperature? We could use Ariel at a high temperature, too, and if we really do wish to wish at high temperatures, that really is up to us. There is an environmental cost in many cases, but hopefully this can be offset by applying more eco-friendly practises elsewhere.

Regards,

Carl

 

[lavamat_jon]

Thanks David... I forgot they did an article last December.

Anyway, it seems that my point has been proved that both Persil and Ariel are about as good as each other for cleaning with small pros and cons of their own.

Jon

 

[lavamat_jon]

Carl... seems we posted at the same time!

You do have a good point with wash temperatures; you have to add more to make up for the loss of another when it comes to laundry. So using Ariel but at a lower temperature can actually do worse to the environment than using an eco friendly powder but at a higher temperature.

BTW, I've always thought of Unilever to be a much better company when it comes to ethics, and I believe they do not rely so heavily upon animal testing like P&G does. I have seen pictures on the internet and what P&G does with it's animal testing is just unnecessary and sick.

Jon

 

[2-drumsallergy]

Jon,
Perhaps you should read my previous post again, I based my opinion on my personal experience of UK detergents not on the Which? washing up liquid report. I did feel however that it was worth mentioning the Which? report as there is a lot of snobbery towards P&G detergents and products. You are very accomplished at snobbery and never miss an opportunity.

P&G detergents are consistently best sellers worldwide surly if they gave poor results they would not sell in such quantities. I am not biased towards any detergent or brand I use whatever detergent gives me the best results.

If you hare having problems with stain removal and rinsing you should consider changing your washing machine.

David

 

[carlstock]

Rinsing

David,

Regardless of the machine in use, some detergents simply will not rinse out particularly well. Ariel is a case in point, which is most likely due to its primary use of zeolites and more polymers, which can remain in the water after multiple rinses in even the best washing machines. Many engineers also recommend Ariel, but they also recommend Persil as a good alternative.

Persil is a quite different formulation, with fewer polymers and a phosphate base. Persil is far easier to rinse from clothes, which leaves a much clearer rinse water.

Finally, Jon is far from a snob – he just likes his Miele washing machines, which are amongst the best washing machines money can buy at the moment in terms of performance, reliability and efficiency. Those facts are borne out by users, Which? and independent service engineers.

Regards,

Carl

 

[2-drumsallergy]

Brand reliaability

Hello Carl,
Actually Which? state that Bosch is the most reliable brand for major appliances with the exception of vacuum cleaners nd fridge freezers although they do score highly with these products.
AEG Electrolux and Miele are reliable brands but as an appliance engineer I can tell you Miele machines are very much over rated and over priced and they do break down, I repair them on a regular basis and believe me they are also extortionate with their parts prices. I personally recommend Bosch or AEG Electrolux washers as in my experience as an engineer they are very reliable. I think the Electrolux Insight is a superb machine, well built very quiet and top spec at a reasonable price.
Also a few months ago my Sister had to dump a 14 month old Miele W2652WPS because of very poor stain removal, she was very angry after paying £700 for a Miele having to replace it after only 14 months. The Miele engineer was out with her machine on four occasions and told her every time it was operating to factory spec. To add insult to injury she was charged for the fourth call as no fault could be found.

A final note on detergent deposits and corrosion: the deposits I have encountered are not caused by softener (softener deposits are greasy) this is a white chalky film but it can easily be brushed away, lime scale is a hard off white deposit and is difficult to remove mechanically.
I have not noticed ny corrosion issues with any Unilever or P&G powder, liquid or tablets however certain supermarket brands aggressively attack cast aluminium components to the point of eating through drum spiders. I find that most people use way too much detergent especially with powders which have a lot of fillers to bulk up the product and fill the box.

David

 

[carlstock]

Which? Tests

David,

Thank you for your response.

Although I have quoted Which?, I would personally question much of their testing, particularly with reliability ratings for different brands, although I am referring to consumer electronics here. I am a Which? subscriber.

In one recent survey, it was suggested that three brands of Freeview receiver – Thomson, Grundig and – had quite different ratings for reliability. This is absurd because all of the boxes with those brand names on are made in the same factory in Wales! Indeed, the Grundig factory in Wales was bought by Thomson, who then proceeded to make the same Grundig models with Grundig labels on and the same Grundig models with Thomson labels on.

This continued until recently, and there is no difference between these models, so there cannot be any variation on reliability. One brand or the other does not have ‘rejects’ that are inferior to the other brand’s – the models are identical!

The above example shows a flaw in the reporting of reliability by Which? subscribers because it fails to acknowledge the similarities between products, as well as some consumers’ inability to report certain faults or to acknowledge certain faults as ‘operational quirks’.

Back to washers…

Why do you believe Mieles are overrated? The only machines now with stainless steel drums? They will of course go wrong, just like any other make. However, statistically, Mieles fail less often. I do have a soft spot for Electrolux Group products – Zanussi, Electrolux and AEG – because they offer very good value and are well built (according to the engineers I have spoken to). However, most engineers I know do suggest Bosch because they are a good compromise on Mieles, with much lower spares costs.

Miele spares can be very expensive, I know, but there is only one Miele. Anything else is a compromise. ;-)

Carl

 

[neptunebob]

Now calm down all you Englishmen!

We Americans are the big energy wasting champs, you have nothing on us!

 

[carlstock]

NeptuneBob - hehe

Careful, NeptuneBob!

If you say that again, our Prime Minister, Tony Blair, will want to play catchup and try to match the United States’ energy needs so that the United Kingdom is seen to be supporting the US. ;-)

Carl

 

[newwave1]

Hmmm well heres my lil bit of input...I have 3 machines. One modern 2 vintage.I like to use my vintage machines alot because they put alot of water in for rinsing and were TOL for their time with alot of features.

My way of being energy efficent with these machines is that i always do fullloads, dose the right amount, pretreat if necessary and use them later in the day when its apparently cheaper to run.

Though through winter i use my aeg. Which is one of the most energy efficent machines and extremely reliable up to this point. Its extremely efficent with waterlevel sensing,cold fill, high intermittent spins so i can get away with 2 rinses when using easily rinsed detergents. Its been on most days for 3years & 5months and *touches wood* has never gone wrong yet. Its motor growles more in its old age. but thats about it.

I'm afraid i'm struggling to adapt to the concept of turning down to 30. I'm stuck in my tried and tested methods. I have a hottub that goes up to 40degrees and when its on 30 gees thats cold. lol. So thats y i struggle to adapt to this concept knowing its a very cool solution. Maybe hearing some postitives through time will make me do so. So i guess the things i do to be energy efficent will make up for my use of higher temperatures!

Darren

 

[2-drumsallergy]

Why do you believe Mieles are overrated?

Hello Carl,
I believe Mieles are overrated because of my experiance as an engineer, my Sisters disastrous experience with her Miele W2652WPS which went to the tip after 14 months, and my own experience with a Miele W2888WPS which I returned to the retailer after three weeks my reason for the return extreme levels of noise and vibration on the 1800RPM spin, it also had a pathetically small drum.

Stainless steel tub units:
Miele are not the only machines with stainless tubs all Asko models have stainless tubs as do most Servis machines, upper range Bosch and Siemens models are also fitted with stainless tubs also certain AEG washers. You might be interested to know that Miele will be introducing plastic tubs in the near future throughout their range.

A final point on plastic tubs:
There is nothing wrong with plastic tub units providing the engineering is sound. The older of my two Dyson washers my CR01 Memory has a plastic tub unit, this washer has now 5000+ cycles on the clock with no breakdowns whatsoever what's more it still runs like new. there are also a lot of benefits with plastic tubs such as reduced noise and vibration and better thermal insulation properties.

Satellite receivers:
Yes I am familiar with the Thomson facility in Wales. Modern electronics can share the basic design and circuit design however the quality and price of the individual electronic components fitted to each brand line can vary widely, this explains the variation in price point between the brand names also the results in the Which? Magazine tests. If Which? published erroneous data they would be sued out of existence.

David.

 

[lavamat_jon]

As you already know David I am more than happy with my W2652WPS, it is easily the best washing machine I have ever used. You are forgetting that I also have an AEG washing machine, and my mum has had quite a bad experience with a Bosch washing machine. From using both the AEG and Miele in everyday use next to each other the Miele is by far better than the AEG, even though the AEG itself is a stellar machine. The bearings on my high end (80000 series) AEG are going already after 2 years use averaging 2-3 cycles a week, and it does not wash nor rinse as well as on short cycles like the Miele can. I have never found the 5 kilogram tub of the Miele "pathetically small", it is larger than most washing machines of yesteryear and I often wash big towel & bedding loads in it as well as double duvets. If you took the time to watch the videos I posted a week or two ago you will see the sort of sized load I can wash in it. In fact the only item that can't fit in it is one that has to be washed at the launderette in the 35lb Ipso washer extractor. I shan't be changing my washing machine in the near future as you suggest I should; in fact if you were to read Which? you will indeed find that Miele come out top and are always in the best buys for washing machines, tumble dryers, and dishwashers.

I have also had experience working in independent appliance retail, and we used to get more call outs even for Bosch and Electrolux made machines (of course not as much as machines from the cheaper end of the market) than we ever did for Miele. In fact most Miele's that we had call outs to were at least 10 years old.

In terms of myself apparently being a snob, well as I've said before you can think what you like of me but how dare you accuse me of being a snob when you don't even know me. There is a big difference between being a snob, and appreciating quality. Believe it or not I don't care what washing machine or brand of any other electrical appliance anybody else owns - if I was a snob then I would. Besides, this message board is by no means a place for personal insults, we are a very friendly community and if you have a problem with somebody then you should either bite your tongue or at least send an email privately. I certainly do not want this to be a long term issue so please either sort out whatever problem you have with me by emailing me or just not bother posting insults to me at all. I shall say no more on the matter, we have both said enough a month or two ago.

BTW, no Bosch/Siemens or AEG washing machine nowadays have stainless steel outer tubs.

Have a good evening,

Jon

 

[2-drumsallergy]

Jon,
Miele 5Kg models have pathetically small drums you sem to forget my sister and I have both had 5Kg Miele models. My sister now has an 8Kg Electrolux Insight both she and I are very impressed with its quality performance and capacity which is vastly superior to any domestic Miele model. My sister finds the extra 3Kg (More than 50% larger than the Miele) capacity a real bonus as she has two young boys.

There is a huge difference between selling washers and repairing them in the real world. I am not biased toward any brand but I can only recommend washers to my customers that provide the best performance, quality and value for money over the life of the machine Miele washers are simply not worth the money. This much is evident not only with my experience as an independent engineer but my own personal and family experience of the brand.

As for your being a snob you most certainly are, you have annoyed so many people on this site. In my opinion you are a complete a** hole so why don't you just f**k off and annoy people somewhere else. This site is for discussion and sharing not for bashing, snobbery and attacking others. There is no pleasure whatsoever left for me in this site so just add me to your ever growing list of victims. I will be deleting my profile as soon as I complete this post.

Goodbye.

David

P.S.

Do not e-mail me as I had to block your e-mail domain after reading your previous abbusive and insulting communications.

 

[lavamat_jon]

For the record, the emails I sent to David were not abusive or insulting at all, instead they were sent in the intention to solve any disagreements. It seems that David was only here for an argument, and this club is better without him.

Thankfully I won't be insulted for no reason whatsoever anymore.

Jon

 

[carlstock]

No manners in the UK these days?

An obvious lack of manners there, David.

Swearing at others is not acceptable.

I have seen more polite 13-year-olds.

 

[mattywashboy]

i don't stand for anyone using bad langauge or abusing any of my personal friends. Where did you come from david, you just waltzed in and started mouthing off calling people this and that and the other. Maybe you need to seek some help if you can't control your anger on a washing machine discussion forum. You have insulted Jon and while he may not mean much to you he means a hell of a lot to me and others in this forum. If you have deleted your profile then good, go and abuse someone else. If not then you had better watch what you say.
btw hi jon *waves*, just fighting your corner, talk on msn later
Matt

 

[irishwashguy]

I think that you need to up the dose of happy pills David

The only victon I can see is you David. All of the people that I know from the here are the best, if you get real, and give them a chance. I love this site. And as for saving energy, I do my part as much as a can. All of the light bulbs are eco, as well as the car is very efficient. i bought a front loader tow years ago. i just love it.
Matt, what kind of front loader are you thinking about buying?

 

[mattywashboy]

i have bought a BOL Whirlpool front loader, 850 max spin (in the australian climate there is no real need for much faster). Its coming on thursday and i am excited, i can do nice hot washes and get good rinsing, also will save on water too.
6th SenseTM Technology optimises water & energy usage

11 wash cycles so there is a perfect cycle to meet all your washing needs

Variable Temperature.

Easy Ironing option makes ironing easier and saves you time

Temperature Display.

Time remaining display to keep you in control

WASH CAPACITY (KG)
5.5kg

SPIN SPEED (RPM)
850RPM variable spin speed

WATER RATING
AAAA

HEIGHT X WIDTH X DEPTH
845mm x 600mm x 580mm

 

[appnut]

Matt, congratulations. Welcome to the front load washer club!!! Very nice machine too.