Es Lebt. Es Lebt! Meiner waschmaschine Lavamat Toplader

[jetcone]

Hmm

As I understand it the trick is the frequency conversion and producing the correct current. Once past that, voltage conversion with a transformer should work as long as you can supply the proper current and voltage from the output of the transformer. Early frequency conversion was complex as it had to employ mechanical means to do so but I think today electronics have taken over? Any body know for sure??

 

[launderess]

You can still find rotary frequency converters out there

They are big, loud, and not sort of thing you'd want in a non industrial space, but never the less....

From what one understands electronic especially modern offerings of frequency converters offer a more fine tuned output (pure sine waves, etc...). This makes them a good match for equally modern appliances/equipment that have sensitive electronics nowadays.

Believe it or not NYC subway system still used old rotary converters until rather recently (1999).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_converter#Obsolescence

Frequency changer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[gizmo]

now here's a thought... (well two actually)

Hi Launderess

As I understand it, your small frequency converter can run everything in that machine except the heater.

This means you could do the following if you could be bothered...

Fill the drum manually using a hose connected to your hot tap. (hose dangled into drum - load clothes and detergent, add hot water, when filled to the same level as the machine would do, turn off tap, withdraw hose, close machine and set it for a temperature below the water temp you just filled. Then the heater won't turn on. To prevent the heater ever being energized, (eg: if the water cooled down during the wash) a technical person could disconnect the heater element, it would only require one wire terminal to be removed from the heater and taped up - completely reversible. I suggest this slightly convoluted method as I'm sure you Launderess would never commit the sin of a cold water wash.

 

alternative more technical method - your chosen technician removed the wires from the heater element and connects them to a 220 (or 240) Volt relay. You add a second 220V 60Hz supply to inside the machine, assuming your home has 220V. This is independent of the 220v 50 Hz supplied by your converter, it is a 220V 60Hz supply of normal US electricity. Heater elements don't know about frequency, they are as happy with 220V DC as they are with 220V 50 Hz or 60 Hz. So your frequency/voltage converter feeds 220v 50Hz to your machines controls and other components, when the heater is called for the machine's circuitry energizes the relay which connects 220V 60Hz to the heater element. the heater will then function without the little frequency converter being overloaded. The only downsides are the cost of paying a tech to do the modification, the legalities of modifying an appliance away from its specification (though your machine isn't approved for US use any way, so your insurance may already be at risk) and the potential oddity of a machine that takes two power cords, each plugged in to different places.

 

it's a bit Heath Robinson-esque but it would work.

 

[launderess]

Thanks for help, luv

But sadly no; frequency converter is too puny to power (or rather cope with) current load drawn by motor for washing or spinning above a certain weight of wash.

Have never used the heater because knew (or assumed) a 1 KvA converter would never work, and didn't want to harm the thing.

Others may be able to explain better, but know that total amps for frequency converter must be same or a bit greater (for margin of safety) than appliance.

My 1kva converter is: 240V Setting 0-300V (High grade): 0-300V, 4.2A

AEG toplader pulls at least 10 amps (according to electrical plate).

It's all over my head, but has something to do with inrush current IIRC.

Thought a 5KvA frequency converter which is rated at 20 amps would suffice, but tech keeps saying one needs 10KVA or above.

Think this explains things better than I.

https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/342107/the-washing-machine-problem

 

[gizmo]

eek.

What cycles have you used?

I can see only one unheated cycle on that dial - the wolle (wool) Kalt (cold) cycle. Every other wash position of the dial shows a temperature in degrees C. So every wash is heated, except the cold wool wash. There is no switch to turn off the heater - the 4 buttons are spin speed, pre-wash, stain, and quick wash ("time saving.")

 

I have a bit of experience with similar machines (though not AEG). The 10 amps will <span style="text-decoration: underline;">include</span> the heater. The info plate shows the MAXIMUM current drawn, and that occurs when heater is on. I strongly doubt that the motor could pull anywhere near enough current to cause your freq converter to break a sweat. I have a similar machine by Brandt of France, when washing it uses less than 200 watts. Varies constantly from 60 to about 200, mostly about 120 watts. I use it plugged in to a power meter so I know its consumption accurately. When the heater kicks in it uses about 2200 watts total, including the motor which runs simultaneously with the heater.

The worst I have ever seen was a Philips top loader, another French machine, which used 900 watts when tumbling. It was a lovely little machine but the control circuitry is awful, barbaric 1970s electronics being responsible. Sorry if I am talking too much jargon here, but the Philips uses the heater element in series with the motor when tumbling, with more power disappearing into the heater element than its efficient little motor actually consumes. I can't believe the much newer AEG would use such awful electronics, I reckon your issue is the heater element is coming on during wash whether you expected it or not. Can you disconnect a wire from the heater and try again? Will it do a "Wolle Kalt" wash?

 

If I am wrong (it happens occasionally...) then your AEG must have some awfully crude circuitry in its motor controller, to have a motor drawing over 1000 watts, however briefly, when it is doing only about 100 watts of actual work.

 

I live on solar power, my Brandt washer runs perfectly well on our 3000 watt inverter which converts 24 volts Dc to 240 volts 50 Hz AC even when the heater kicks in. (and with other loads in the house on at the same time.) We are currently using that machine in the house due to other dramas with other machines... briefly, the change over from our old LG front loader to a recently scrounged Miele front loader did not go well, with the Miele washing our laundry floor unexpectedly...

 

Using front loaders on solar inverters used to be a drama 20+ years ago, it was the initial cause of me getting involved with pulling washing machines apart and modifying them. but the electronic controls inside them have improved dramatically since about 25 years ago, and should cause an inverter, or a frequency converter rated at 1000w, little bother.

 

good luck with it.

Personally if your machine requires a purchase of a 5kva converter at a high price, I would have it converted into cat food tins at the scrap metal recycler, and chase up something more efficient.

 

[launderess]

No, unlike AEG front loaders sold in North America these European machines don't have a "Kalt" or "20C" setting for normal cottons/linens or any other cycle besides Wool.

Upon applying for information was told this is how things are done now in Europe. All washers are cold fill and machine will heat to desired temperature. This is supposed to be progress and energy efficient because "machines use so little water" today. Oh well..

In any event simply ran washer on "30C" cycles filling with water from tap knew quite well was higher temperature. Machine senses temp of water and does not engage heater. This is normal for all AEG washers as my Lavamat front loader will do same, abort or shorten heating time based upon temperature of water in drum.

However there is a down side to this; washer's computers allow for "X" minutes of time to heat water (think it is ten). If machine reaches set temp below set parameters washer will deduct cycle time, sometimes drastically.

If want to do a 120F wash with front loader Lavamat but see no reason to start with ice cold tap water, so start with say 100F. Machine will start with about 54 minutes total displayed. It drains wash water at about 45 minutes remaining, then one looks again and display reads 32mins or so.

Maddening thing is even when set to 30C, washer will still do this during certain times of year when tap cold water is rather warm. In winter it is because the boilers are on for heat, so water standing around in pipes is warmed by conduction. In summer water sitting in mains is warmed if standing too long during hot weather. Only way to get really "cold" water in either situation is to allow taps to run; and often for a very long time. That is a huge waste of water so don't do it often, only for maybe cooking for filling up drinking water pitcher when one wants fresh cold water.

Now my older Miele washer with electronic/mechanical controls doesn't care if thermostat is satisfied early. Miele marketed something called "cycle guarantee" which assured one got proper selected wash time regardless.

Back to matter at hand.

Washer will cope with (very) small loads, but again anything remotely approaching rated capacity trips frequency converter. While it could be heater, am still thinking 1kva frequency converter (which equals about 1kw) cannot cope with in rush current motor needs to deal with 4 or 5 kilos of wet laundry.

At least one or two former active members ran their AEG laundry appliances from step-up voltage converters. So we know if machine can be programmed or whatever to accept 60hz power a step-up converter of 3,000 watts is fine.

In a perfect world would line up frequency converters at 3kva, 5kva and 10kva keeping the one that proved satisfactory. Sadly the things cost very dear and have to choose just the one.

One thousand watts at 220 volts comes to about 4.5 amps which is higher than stated rating for converter at 4.2 amps.

Interestingly other converters from same maker rate at:

3 KVA - 12.5 amps

5 KVA - 20.8 amps

10 KVA - 40.6 amps

Why they are suggesting one go with 10 KVA for a whopping 40.6 amps over smaller converters I don't know. But again do not know how to run sums used for such calculations

 

[henene4]

So, been thinking...

These machine can be configured to run on 60Hz.

Trouble is finding someone who can do this.
Some versions can only be configured via a service interface that only trained service professionals get acess to - software and hardware wise.
Some can be configured via a configuration code that would be entered as a binary string through a service menu.

No idea how to find out what is true for what model, further no idea how you would enter that mode nor how you would figure out what to configure it too.

So I sat behind some things and came up with a couple of ideas - all not verry probable to work.

First was to find a preconfigured electronic that would fit the machine.
Most likely source to find a voltage and frequency compliant source was Canada since they did have AEG washers at some point to some scale - and speak english.
Found euro parts canada who are the only authorized AEG service company in CA.
Maybe hit them up and ask them if they might be abled to help.

Second was Electrolux USA.
They should have company wide acess to all literature and parts - even Canada.
It's a far reach but they might be abled to help you.

Last was trying a German forum - some on there are willing to help with weired stuff.
You'd have to either try really hard on your german or try english and explain yourself.
On teamhack there is a manual on how to enter a configuration code (https://forum.teamhack.de/thread/11682-fehlercode-e90-eingeben/?postID=87073#post87073) and they might be really kind and help you.
Or try elektronikwerkstatt: https://forum.electronicwerkstatt.de/phpBB/

Just some more thoughts on mine.

 

[ozzie908]

I am at a loss also as to why

A 40amp supply would be needed, Ok so its not on a 240 supply with a 20 amp service which is all it would have if back here, The max fuse rating is 13amp and that's only for when things go askew and draw more than 13amp it will blow the fuse, Is there anyway you can find a used middle of the range one and see if that works as I have never known a healthy washer blow a 13amp fuse unless it has a short and then you get a nice bang and a flash and its dead before you pull the plug

 

[henene4]

Ok so I might be onto something

Just took my a couple minutes more.

So this is verry technical and you might - if you mess up - risk bricking both your AEGs.
Further this is totaly hypothetical. It might not work at all on any of this.
Anything you do is at your own risk.

Also, this is gonna take some writing to explain.
TL;DR: I might be abled to reverse engeneer this thing.

So, ok.

Since even the more up to date machines seem to be configurable (found instructions on a post for machines as recent as 2019) I suppose both your machines can be manually configured.
But we can check that.

These configuration codes are 16 digit codes consisting of the numbers 1 through 9 plus 0 as well as the letters a through f.

I might have found a way to check the config codes for both machines.

Now, at this point we just want to check that you can enter the configuration menu.
So only do the following, once you acessed that menu DO NOT PUSH ANY further buttons.

From the german forum what I can gather is following:

For the 88840:

Turn the machine off.
Hold down the upper most option button and the one beneath that.
Turn the dial one to the right.
Let go off the buttons.
Turn dial clockwise to the last stop before off.
The display should show 2 digits.
If it does you entered configuration mode.
Turn the machine off.

For the 46200:

Enter service menu:
-Turn machine off
-Press and hold the start button as well as the button to the left of it
-Turn dial one to the right
-Keep buttons pressed until you enter service mode, then let go
Now go to the last setting, you should see 2 digits on the display as well (or the status lights just lighting up).
Then turn off.

Now for the frontloader that should certainly work.
For the toploader I am not sure since it only has 3 status lights.
If you can't enter service mode try tuning on first than pressing and holding the 2 buttons.

Now if we got this far, we might be getting somewhere.

Now these 16 digits seem to have a pattern and I have my suspision as to which character defines frequency (4 being a C everyhwere I look seems a good candidate).

So to reverse engeneer this we need as much input as possible between a machine that works on 60Hz and one that dosen't.

So we're gonna read out the existing configuration codes.
For that, keep a piece of paper handy.
For proper notation make a list with 2 colums: Position and Value.
The fields for "position" you should fill like this:
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c d e f
Position 0 is the first position (binary counting basicly).

Beneath each you will note down the corresponding value.

The left value in the display is your position.
This should increase incrementaly step by step as you scroll through the 16 digits.

The right one will be the value of the position.
These are the values we wanna read out.
They can be 0, 1-9 or a-f.
They don't have any directly obvious pattern.

Enter the configuration menu as listed above.

For the 88840:
Once you see the 2 digits, we just want to read the codes out.
Now note down which ever value you see for the position you see.
(Means check the first digit in the display, go to the corresponding position in your grid, then check the second digit and note down that value below the position.)
Now with second button, the second from the top in the colum of option buttons, you should scoll through the postions.
So press that once.
The first digit in the display should increase by 1 step.
If it did, you are good to go.
Read out the second digit in the display and write it down for the corresponding position.
Repeat until all 16 spaces are filled.
Turn off machine.

If for what ever reason the second digit should change once you try to advance for the first time, KEEP PRESSING THE SAME BUTTON UNTIL YOU ARE BACK AT DEFAULT.
Then try the other of the 2 buttons (the upper one).
The order might be reversed somehow.

Now, enter the configuration mode on the toploader.
Here, the Start button would change the value (so don't touch that once you are in configuration mode).
The button to the left will scroll throught the positions.
So do the same as for the FL and write down postion and value for each of the digits, then come back here and we'll check if we can work something out from there.

If any of this even works.
As I said, it might not.

 

[launderess]

Thanks for all that information!

Long ago reached out to AEG Canada (who still sells and services Electrolux/AEG washers for USA), and was promptly told off.

They know us because have dealt with them off and on due to the AEG front loader (ordering parts, various service information, etc..), but flat refused to provided information requested.

Doing so (giving ways to change frequency on AEG toplader) would "invalidate CEE certifications) or some such was the response.

Again know there is a way for AEG laundry appliances sold in North America to be swapped for 60hz use; our front loader and dryer have 50hz on ratings plate but work perfectly fine. This as opposed to the Miele which says "60hz".

We know from previous threads that motherboard for these model washers is "50hz/60hz". Since everything is run off the PCB there is the sticking point. Board either must be changed or programmed differently for 60hz use, but no one at Electrolux/AEG is ever going to tell how.

This query in some form has bounced around various European and other laundry appliance forums. Response is always same; crickets from anyone remotely professionally connected with AEG or who otherwise would know.

Have accessed service menu for AEG front loader to clear error codes (after installing new water solenoid). But am afraid to do something that might brick the washer. Especially now since AEG in Canada knows what one was likely up to. Am afraid they might say "poor you daft cow, we told you to leave it alone", and not assist restoring machine back to proper use.

 

[launderess]

Why Keep It?

Well as previous owner pointed out expressly and with great emphasis one received a basically brand new late model Euro washer for nothing. Am only out of pocket a small shipping charge (Uship) from NJ to city.

That alone is a savings, besides where or when are another of these top loading h-axis washers going to come along literally right in one's back yard? Lost out on the other "free" AEG top loader in Detroit out of my own stupidity, was determined not to let that happen again.

If end up having to spend a bit for a proper frequency converter still think come out ahead. Will have a washer that pretty much will last until one gives up this hobby, or leaves this earth.

Some like American appliances, think we know one has a thing for European things. So who knows, may find other uses for a frequency converter besides this toplader. Off the bat could run my Textima bugelmangel for a start. It does fine on 220v/60hz, but would run at proper slower speed at 50hz.

Since have several other washers, there isn't a huge rush to get the AEG toplader up and running. Thus can wait until proper converter can be sourced at a reasonable price.

 

[launderess]

It's Been A Funny and Long Journey

But this time "Es Lebt!" for sure! Well at least so far so good.

Got everything hooked up and decided to go for a mortgage and put the toaplader (and converter) to a test; full load (about 8 pounds) of bath linens (thick towels, wash cloths, hand towels). If one or other failed to perform, I'm done....

Well about 15 minutes into a two hour wash cycle (Cottons/60C), and everything is spot on!

First and foremost can tell from converter readings toplader amp pull is all over map. From a low of ten to sometimes a bit over forty. Wiser heads were correct in that it would take a converter likely larger than washer and cost same or more to power unit. Since got washer for free, there was only transport costs. So that's me for you there.

Don't want to think what total kit came to; so will just leave that aside for now.

 

[launderess]

Oh the endless wait

Thought cycles on the AEG Lavamat were long, but this Electrolux AEG toplader takes things to a whole other level.

Two hours and about ten minutes after starting towel load things finally finished. That was with using the reduced time feature. Otherwise things would have been over three hours I believe.

Am not that thrilled Electrolux took away 50C and gave "40-60" mix. For hot washes one has either 95C or 60C. Would have liked to do second load of whites at my usual 50C, but that's out, so chose 40C instead. That "40-60" mix is three and one quarter hour long, and cannot be shortened. Scrub that.....

All and all an interesting bit of kit. Machine heats water at beginning, then washes for a bit, then heater comes back on again. Don't know if this is some sort of profile washing, or just maintaining selected water temp.

Bath linen felt a bit heavy after just a 1200 rpm final spin (highest machine offers). Just hung them up to dry and after whites are done in dryer will pop them in for a bit to fluff.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Ah, good - well done with your perseverance.

And welcome to the world of longer programme times - not terribly pleasant, is it? I wonder though, whether that 'Cottons 40°-60°C Mix' programme is really an Eco cycle in disguise?

Try the standard Cottons 40°C, or Cottons 60°C instead... the timings might be a tad more sensible, or be more amenable to user adjustment.

I suppose too, that if you have age-old linen or cotton fabrics which require a gentler treatment, you could consider using the EasyCare 40, 50, 60°C programmes instead. The agitation should be less severe than the Cottons cycles.

 

[ozzie908]

This opens a whole new arena for you

You may find another Miele that was brought over and won't operate on your voltage and now you have this converter it will enable you to use someone else's costly mistake

Nice one and congrats xxx

 

[bryggerset]

The program cotton 40-60 degrees is an eco-program for lightly soiled clothes usually washed at 60 degrees celsius, but which instead of washed for longer time of 40 degrees celsius for longer time on 40 degrees, to achieve the same result.

In the parts of northern Europe I've been to and live in, you don't wash in cold water. It has been tried to chainge habits, but it has not really gained ground. The soaps therefore, are almost not on the shelves anymore.

You asked for the warm-up in several tempi. Some modern models warm the cold water up to a certain temperature and stop, to allow the enzymes in the detergent to work at their optimum temperature before warming up to the final temperature. They do not afterheat, but have longer washtimes.

Older European machines warmed up to the desired temperature and then then afterheated if the temperature became too low. Your Miele does probably afterheat.