European vs American "HE" Detergents

[launderess]

Whilst going though my stash of vintage and modern laundry detergents one wondered about the wisdom of using even low foaming products both modern and vintage. In particular am concerned about the Lavamat due to it's miserly use of water and often rather long cycles.

Well since one wanted answers not questions decided to see what there was on the Internet.

According to some authorities using high dilution detergents (products designed for American old school top loaders with central beaters)is not wise in modern front loaders in particular European versions. Theory goes that high dilution detergents are designed to work in lots of water. Thus one will not be able to achieve proper dosage to clean, keep soils suspended, prevent dyes from transferring, etc... buy using small amounts in a front loading washer.

 

[sudsmaster]

It's already well established that high sudsing American detergents are not appropriate for any make of HE washer, not just European ones. This is not news.

 

[mrb627]

???

I think the American HE detergents are formulated for cooler washing temperatures while Non-American HE detergents are formulated to handle washing in higher temperatures without foaming out of control. It amazes me with how the machines continue to get more water restrictive, we haven't seen a completely Suds-Free detergent like for an automatic dishwasher.

Malcolm

 

[electron1100]

Suds

Same here for me where I live (very soft water) its the same problem with all brand leader powders, they are all very sudsy when it comes to rinsing and very often over scented for me.

That's why I switched to a supermarket brand that cleans aswell as Ariel and Persil but it is very low in suds and therefore rinses out very easily and doesn't really smell of anything.

 

[hoovermatic]

Supermarket brand

"That's why I switched to a supermarket brand that cleans aswell as Ariel and Persil but it is very low in suds and therefore rinses out very easily and doesn't really smell of anything"


Which supermarket brand did you go for?

 

[jerrod6]

You would think that with the decrease in the amount of water available for rinsing that the USA detergent manufacturers would reduce the amount of suds in their detergents to almost nothing and work to make them provide suds free rinses at least by the second rinse.

This is one of the things that bugs me with the detergents readily available to USA consumers; that and the fact the all of them even those for darks and blacks contain optical brighteners.

Now along comes brands like German Persil for whites that is advertised to be used in 30C to 95C washes so nothing stands still.

 

[launderess]

Point one was trying to make in initial

Post was that "HE" or whatever one wants to call detergents made for H-Axis washing machines are designed to deliver their properties in low amounts of water and over often very long cycle times.

According to something one read online (a patent application?) high dilution detergents (such as those made for American top loaders of old) are meant to deliver full power, soil suspension, dye transfer prevention , etc... for wash times <20mins. Detergents for front loaders must cope with wash cycles that run thirty minutes or longer, thus remain active far longer.

Americans can get away with using high dilution detergent say like Tide in Laundromat front loaders because those machines have very short cycles IMHO. Also lack of a pump means suds lock while an issue is not nearly as much of one with domestic machines.

The other concern is that it is probably not possible to use "less" of a high dilution detergent in a front loader (say to control froth), and still achieve consistent results. Without enough product not only is cleaning ability compromised but soil suspension and etc....

 

[roscoe62]

Should be interesting

To see where the future will be with these detergents and the "newer" front loaders with even less water usage.Carnage may be just around the corner in the laundry room?

 

[electron1100]

Supermarket brand

I was recommended to use Tescos own so I bought a small box to try it out, and haven't looked back.
I just don't know why the major manufacturers do it, I understand some people like scented powders etc, but suds???? many years ago a friend who was an industrial chemist gave me a small amount of lather inhibitor just half a teaspoon in with Ariel and that worked a treat.

ah well such is progress ;-)

 

[aquacycle]

Tescos own

Gary, how are you finding it? I used Sainsburys own powder once, but it wouldn't shift basic stains like deodorant marks from clothes. How is the Tesco one? I do love Tesco's own fabric softener, so might have to give the washing powder a go.

 

[electron1100]

Tescos own

I have been using both the powders (colour/bio) for just over a year now and I like them both very much I have no problems with stains other than Bolognese sauce on T towels on a 60d wash so unless I do a boil wash I soak T-towels overnight in Tescos Bio powder.
But I did mention before that after 3 modern machines I now use a 33 year old Hoover machine with high wash levels and short programs and I am convinced it is down to this machines wash action and water usage that I get such good results.
But I cannot comment on its likely performance in a modern machine as back in the day I was using Ariel/Persil/Daz powders to try and achieve good results in the modern machines

Gary

 

[liberatordeluxe]

I can recommend Simply by Aquados and M&S detergents. They don't create the excess foam like Persil does. However the new Ariel liquid is much easier to rinse and not as foamy as the gels!

 

[liberatordeluxe]

Gary, What lather inhibitor do did you use by the way? The ones the major manufacturers use are not that good are they and they only start to work at certain temperatures like 60C. Ariel powder for whites gets very foamy when on warm washes but when you up the temperature to say 60C the foam 'dies' down.

 

[nickuk]

Sainsbury's powder

Have been using the new Sainsbury's concentrated powder. Comes in a plastic self dosing jug. It is even more concentrated than Ariel future used to be. Smells like
megaperls, rinses well and has 5 enzymes. Made in the Netherlands? Damn fine product, and the most significant advance in the detergent sector we have had for ages. Yeah yeah I know, pods and all that......

Will post some pics if anyone interested. Am wondering if the brands will follow this and replace powder tabs, which I heard several years ago were on the way out.

 

[paulc]

Nick,

Believe it or not the majority of powders we have at the moment are the same, if not stronger in concentration that Ariel ultra was. When you compare the dosage of "big box powders" now to the equivalent in the 80's and early 90's there is quite a difference. The Ultra's, Micro's and Futur's failed to take off as the average customer could not get used to using 100 to 120ml of powder compared to their 250ml to 400ml dosage of the powder they were used to. Since the old compact powders were withdrawn mainstream powder has been gradually concentrated to a point where 50ml to 100ml of powder is the recommended dose in soft water.

P&G however have just brought out Ariel, Bold and Daz "compact" powders although not on the shelves in Edinburgh yet. Mind you we don't have the Sainsbury's compact either.

 

[liberatordeluxe]

Hello Nick,

I would be interested in seeing some pictures of this concentrated powder by Sainsbury's. Always shop in Sainsbury's so hopefully will see it.

I think its good the detergent industry making products more concentrated as you don't really need all that much for a clean wash. I find even with hard water the recommended amounts are still too much for normal soiled clothes. Unless your covered in car oil or do an extremely dirty job I think the suggested amounts will lead to over foaming.

 

[paulc]

Here is a pic of the Sainsbury's compact detergent as posted on facebook by a friend.

 

[liberatordeluxe]

Thanks Paul for posting. Good on Sainsbury's for bringing in super concentrated powders.

 

[paulc]

The bottle is self dosing, you tip it up and it dispenses 25ml at a time. I've edited this as I had got the recommended dosage wrong , pic to follow.

 

[liberatordeluxe]

Did we ever actually have any 'colour care' detergents say 1980's til early 1990's? I recall Persil Automatic being used by my parents to wash our clothes then and my Mum told me they didn't have 'colour care' back then. Is that right? We have so much choice today which I suppose is a good thing but can be confusing for some.

 

[liberatordeluxe]

Getting back to the original post I think the self dosing is a great idea will await to see it in Sainsbury's.

So Ariel is bring out compact powders and doing away with the tablets?

 

[paulc]

Persil in the 80's was marketed as safe for all laundry , including wool!! Here is the ingredients and dosing instructions for the Sainsburys compact

 

[paulc]

Ariel compact

As I said before, these are pics posted by a friend on facebook who appears to live in an area where new detergents are introduced.

 

[paulc]

Dosing

instructions

 

[launderess]

Colour Care

Sort of yes and no.

P&G repositioned Cheer as their "color" detergent in one wants to say the 1980's or so. Prior to that Cheer contained bluing agents and so forth (which some versions still do), but nothing so much to prevent dyes from transferring and prevent colours fading.

Then P&G came up with "Triple Colour Guard" which was supposed to prevent coloured laundry from fading, dye transfer..... http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=16003071

For most of history on both sides of the pond linens ranging from bed, table, bath and right up to blouses and shirts were either white or light colourfast shades. Nothing that would be harmed by say laundering in normal detergent with bluing agents and perhaps oxygen bleach. Chlorine bleach would be another matter however.

Today of course we have *linens* in all sorts of deep and rich colours such as carmines, reds, browns, blacks, etc... Frequent laundering with detergent that contain any sort of bleach or OBAs will affect these items. Indeed over the past twenty or so years there has been a major switch to using colour everywhere from our wardrobes to home.

In the old days you wanted white or light coloured *linens* because they would withstand the hot water and harsh laundering processes often required when using soaps and so forth. With modern automatic washing machines and detergents you can achieve "clean" in warm and even cold (86C) water, so the potential for damage to colours is less.

 

[paulc]

Laundress

Also, on this side of the "pond" in the 80's and before, ingredients in detergents were designed to work at different temperatures. All main brand powders contained oxygen bleach but this was not fully effective until temps of 60deg C or above were reached, so coloured items washed at 40deg C were not so affected by fading. With the advent of lower temp washing and oxy bleach that operated in cooler water there was more of a need for detergents designed for coloureds, although it could be argued the introduction of colour specific detergent was a marketing ploy also.

 

[liberatordeluxe]

Thanks for the postings laundress and Paul. Will keep my eyes peeled on the new compact powders!

 

[liberatordeluxe]

Thanks for the postings launderess and Paul. Will keep my eyes peeled on the new compact powders!

 

[launderess]

Sodium Perborate

Was the "Per" behind Persil and like the rest of "active" soap and later detergent powders used for washing sodium perborate is the "colour safe" bleach. That is the stuff requires temps of 140F or higher to really get going bleaching wise. Since few if anyone would be washing colours at boil wash temps, there you are then. Same thing with colour safe bleaches like the original "Clorox II"

With the development of oxygen bleach activators (TAED in Europe and NBOS in America) perborate or percarbonate bleaches became active at lower temps and thus the bleaching action started soon after temps reached >86F, therefore colours likely could be affected. Hence the need for detergent just for such items that di not contain bleaching agents.

Sodium perborate is in the cross hairs of EU regulators because of the damage borates cause to aquatic systems. If you notice many detergents on both sides of the pond have switched to sodium percarbonate. You'll also see many products making claims they are friendly to the environment as they do not contain borates.

Sodium percarbonte is known as the "cold water" oxygen bleach since unlike sodium perborate it does work in warm, cool or even cold water. It may take longer to achieve the desired results, but never the lass. In fact it could be argued activators aren't necessary with percarbonate bleaches, but there is a method to the madness.

In water activated (TAED) oxygen bleaches become Peracetic acid which is a more powerful bleach and antimicrobial than hydrogen peroxide. Peracetic acid is recognized in both the EU and North America as a powerful disinfectant. It is what brewers use to sanitize bottles before using them for beer. However the stuff is very unstable in pure form (it only comes as a liquid IIRC) and IIRC slightly dangerous. Activated oxygen bleach OTOH is far more stable for transport, shelf life, etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peracetic_acid

 

[jerrod6]

I am wondering, what of todays He detergents sold in the USA formulated for both front loading and top loading machines? The former type of top loaders using 19 to 21 gallons of water for each fill seem to be missing from the scene at least in the big box stores so It seems now days that the top loader machines also do not use as much water and both of these types of machines take a long time to get on with the cycle. The top loaders don't even have a manual timer so no telling how long they take.

So for todays environment are the USA He detergents still formulated for short wash cycles? If they are can they be working well with todays top loaders longer cycles, or are todays top loaders that are using less water still trying to wash in detergent formulated for short washes while they have less water to work with and take a longer time to complete even when the detergent says it's He?

Front or top loaders either one don't seem to use a lot of water, so thorough rinsing is still a concern for me- rash occurred last December after using Tide He Powder with bleach and liquid Tide He for two weeks in a row even though I have a machine that rinses well so I guess I most have tougher skin than I do.

Hey that's it! - I have the gentle skin of a baby and must be treated +well and with dignity. Yes.. I must remember that line for future use! not that anyone is gonna believe it.

Seriously though, why can't USA He detergents be formulated to be very low foaming, well rinsing, and still clean effectively?