eurr outlets

[sudsmaster]

Back during the California electricity crisis in 2000, I researched the cost of generating electricity using a natural gas generator, vs. buying it from the utility. The best case was that the cost of the natural gas equalled or surpassed the cost of buying the same amount of electricity from the utility. That did not include the capital required to purchase the generator, install it, and maintain it.

A possible alternative would be to install a solar electric system, and buy an inverter that supplies 50 Hz 220 instead of 60 Hz 110. Of course, you'd probably need a battery storage system so that you could do boil washes in the dark of a winter's night. For the cost of such an installation, you could probably by a few dozen brand new US-spec Mieles.

 

[panthera]

CO

I know about that danger, it happens here in Europe all to often. We tend to make fun of the yee-haw, d-u-m--spells dumb and proud of it--US mentality, but that one is a big problem here.
Some folks just don't get it.

I wish we would figure out some sort of energy storage system that people could agree on. Take a look at the cooperation between the hydro-electric dam at Kaprun, Austria and the French nuclear industry.

Hydro-electric plants are the very best solution when you have to ramp up fast to meet demand peaks. Nuclear power plants are the worst at that sort of challenge.
Whatever one may think of nuclear energy, it is good for producing a constant level of supply (I, myself, am a proponent of fusion...as long as it is located exactly one astronomical unit away from me).

So the two production consortiums have an agreement. The excess capacity of the nuclear plants in the night is used to pump water back up to behind the dam. During the day, the demand peaks are met by letting the water run back downhill, making available (oops, got to phrase this carefully or the anal-retentives will charge in on their White Steeds...) energy to fill the demands.
It just seems so natural to me to harnass solar energy and wind energy in a similar way, use them to pump water uphill and then let it run downhill to provide energy when needed.

Unfortunately, fundamentalists are not only of the christianist persuassion. You can find some of the least flexible minds and spirits in the world in the Green parties.

Over here in Germany, we actually have had wind farms (we have areas of Germany that make Wyoming look wind-still) closed down because of the 'shadows' the windmills might have cast and the vague, theoretical possibility that the birds might be too stupid to figure out that the vanes of a windmill move...not to mention the horror of the noise which wind makes (!!!!).

Sigh.

 

[panthera]

From Wikipedia

I don't usually believe everything I find in Wikipedia and I am (gradually) learning to curb my, er, pen, when someone makes a slight mistake.
This little section from Wikipedia is interesting and, I think, offers a good explanation for some of the terms we all bat around here:
British English-American English
mains power- line power
earth connection- ground connection
flex/mains lead- cord
socket, power point- outlet, receptacle, socket
pin- prong or plug

In the United States, the live contact may be called live or hot. The neutral contact may be called cold, neutral, return, the grounded conductor, or (in the National Electrical Code), the identified conductor. The earth contact is called ground or the grounding conductor.

In the United Kingdom the word "line" is occasionally used to denote the live terminal or wire. This terminology derives from its being at the line voltage relative to neutral and ground, as distinct from the "phase" voltage, between lines on different phases of the supply.

Live conductors are called phases when there is more than a single phase in use. Pins are also known as prongs, contacts or terminals.

In Australia, the live contact is called active.

Since many Americans use the UK terms and vice-versa, this should all be taken with a grain of salt.

Am posting a link to the entire article - some interesting stuff there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_AC_power_plugs_and_sockets

 

[MrX]

Japan

Japanese appliances are actually a rather weird spec.

Japan uses 100V 50Hz and 60Hz.
One side of Japan was electrified under European influence and the other after the US occupation so ended up with 60Hz.
So the vast majority of Japanese appliances are set up to cope with 50Hz or 60Hz.

Also, they use 100V NOT 110 to 125V as per the US / Canada. Some sensitive Japanese appliances will burn out on a US supply that goes much beyond 110V.
You can actually buy US-Japanese transformers that step it down slightly.

As for double-insulated cable - it's just European safety standards are slightly different to those in the US. The main reason is that it avoids mechanical wear and tear damaging the cables. You would find US-style Zipcord on some small appliances manufactured in Europe before the 1970s.

Lamp cord and zip cord are no longer legally available in the EU. Even lamps have double-insulated cable.

 

[MrX]

EU/US

There are just different priorities and ideologies behind EU and US wiring. The majority of the world uses 220-230V 50Hz. For that reason, they generally follow (at least vaguely) European CENELC standards.

Those using 60Hz 110V systems generally follow (also vaguely) US NEMA standards.

 

[MrX]

Here are the plug types

This one gives you the plug types

A - US style 15A NEMA plug (ungrounded)
B - US style 15A NEMA grounded
C - Europlug Ungrounded (Small appliances only 2.5A moulded on)
D - Obsolete UK BS546 (Round pin - 3 sizes) 1 to 15Amp 230V Groudned
*E - CEE 5/7 (French plug - schuko compatible) - replaced by CEE 7/7 16A grounded
*F - CEE 4/7 (Schuko) - replaced by CEE 7/7 16A Grounded
G - BS1365 UK/Ireland 13A plug Grounded
H - Israeli plug (16A) Grounded
I - Australian / NZ plug - 10A Grounded
J - Swiss 10A Grounded
K - Italian (being phased out in favour of CEE 7/7) 16A and 10A Grounded
L - Danish (being phased out in favour of CEE 7/7) Grounded
M - 15A version of BS546, used in south africa, obsolete in UK/IRL Grounded

 

[toggleswitch]

~Lamp cord and zip cord are no longer legally available in the EU. Even lamps have double-insulated cable.

May I ask what a cord-set (flex-cord) to, say, percolator looks like? Are these generally detachabble over the pond as we'd see here?

I'm also curious as to table lamps. On my continent I see the switch as a turn-switch near the lamp(bulb) holder. Euro-inspired designs (well, the stuff I see out of IKEA) tends to have a switch on the cord itself. Is this a safety thing as well? Perhaps to keep fingers away from the electrical contacts of the socket/lamp holder?

 

[dj-gabriele]

Hi Steve!

(Speaking for Italy)
Here we use standard IEC connectors (like the ones on the computers) for everything that has a detachable cord, the 2 line pins plus earth a little up than those.
Plus I think that there's an error on the Wikipedia article... the Italian plug isn't being phased out at all.
Anyway, just to show I photographed all the plugs available around here.

1,3,4 Fit all in the same standard Italian plug receptacle.
2 Fits in hybrid or Schuko receptacles.

 

[dj-gabriele]

I forgot about the lamps...
Usually the switches are all on the cord (that is double insulated too) but it's not unusual to have a switch on the body of the lamp (usually the base), it's just less common, I guess it's just a habit!

 

[MrX]

Thesedays, if a cord is detachable they almost always use an IEC connector or as we call them here 'kettle leads' because they were found on electric kettles long before they were found on PCs, or at least, long before anyone had a PC !

Although, the kettle version is keyed and can withstand 125C.

There used to be a whole range of weird one-off connectors used by different manufacturers and old national standards / industry standards. In almost all instances these have been replaced by the IEC

For plugs and outlets CEE 7/7 "Schuko" The 16A plug that works with both French and German style grounded outlets has become the de facto standard in Europe.

 

[panthera]

Actually,

The double insulated and no way, José to "zip cord is not entirely true, unfortunately.
Lots of Chinese stuff coming in to Europe is trash. The certifications are not genuine and a quick look at the wiring is enough to scare you. Including some line cords with "zip cord".
One example which caused quite a few fires in the last years were those pretty fairy lamps which change colors and have simple patterns...the line cord in to some of them was 'zip' and the 220V lines out (on this device) were also thin, single wire.
This double insulated stuff sounds good, but I have seen some cables which were so thinly insulated any protection would have been much less than that of a well put together 'zip'.
Because the UK has a different plug and socket than the rest of us, maybe they have been spared this problem. Over here, we seem to have a recall of this that or the other electrical doo-dad every day. Certainly, all the BS1365 I have lying around do have decent double insulated cables.
Interesting side note, on the Schuko outlets, the identified (I can be politically correct when I want to be )) cable goes to the right and line to the left. Even tho' the Europlug and the Schucko are not polarized, inspectors assume non-adherence is a sign of other slacking off and will and do ramp up their inspections when they see things reversed from the recommendation.
I don't have the details on the newest regs, but the Swiss until recently were still permitting the neutral (oh, that feels so much better) to also be used as the socket ground in older homes.
Just my two little Eurocents to counteract any impression that our electrical state of affairs here is soooo much better than in North America. (Sure, I prefer 230V lines, too and am neutral on the 50/60Hz argument. Fifty is conclusively safer, but 'tis still a bit like drowning in 3 meters or 30...)

 

[toggleswitch]

I'm not going to play "Mine is better than yours or

~One example which caused quite a few fires in the last years were those pretty fairy......
Watch them fairies. They look harmless but don't piss them off. When the brick in their purse makes contact with a basher'a head MAMMA MIA!

Ah KETTLE HEADS. TYVM! EUREKA!
Thank you Very Much also Gabriele!

50hz/60hz.
I'm not following how 50hz is safer than 60hz. (I may have to re-read the above).

For those of us used to 60hz, Euro and UK TV appears to flicker for a day or two until we get used to it. The "refresh" rate of the screen is tied to line-voltage Hertz. ANYHOOOOOOO..........

If A/C throws you and D/C pulls you in (can't let go of live/hot/active conductors/leads/mains/lines), wouldn't 60hz be theoeretically better? Also did we not at one time say that 60hz A/C motors are more efficient and run cooler and smaller than 50hz motors?

Looks like a more ideal system would take from 220v and 60hz. Overall.

I never even thought of lamp/zip cord as single insulated and that there are other, perhaps better-suited, types. Personally I'm used to being able to SEE worn insulation to be able to replace it rather than hiding it under another layer. But live and learn!

Here's another tid-bit, in the UK I have seen electrical wires grounded/earthed to GAS pipes! The DIY manual I picked up there AGREES with this. THAT IS A BIG NO-NO NOT-EVER here! Notice I did not say one is right and one is wrong. I'm just saying it was a "shock" (no pun intended). It goes against the theory and practise. I have come to understand!

Amperage, not voltage kills. But voltage facilitates the ameperage to get through you! Perhaps areas with 220v more properly revere it and are more cautious.

So in reference to the world maps with electrical voltages and cycles......... can 50hz and 60hz countries/areas (That border on each-other) easily buy power from each other? The voltage is immaterial, in that it can be trasformed into whatever is needed to run throught the transmission lines. Frequency however.......

 

[MrX]

Toggleswitch

Are you sure that you're not looking at bonding wires?

It's normal practice in Ireland and the UK to bond all pipework with earth wires to the earthing (grounding) system in the building. This creates an equipotential zone and prevents electric shocks. It's necessary when you use a TNC earthing system.

All metal plumbing is interconnected with heavy gauge green & yellow earth cables. These are connected to the the grounded neutral provided by the power company.

If this is not done, there is a risk that there could be a potential difference (i.e. dangerous voltage) between metal fittings!!

Gas and water pipes *MUST* be bonded with earth cables.

 

[MrX]

Gas Meter

Here's a gas meter bonded.

 

[MrX]

Requirements for a bathroom

Every pipe has to be connected electrically to every other pipe and so on. You will see earth cables running between pipes under sinks, beside water heaters etc etc.

 

[toggleswitch]

~Are you sure that you're not looking at bonding wires?
I'm not sure I follow. Aren't we saying the same thing?

~It's normal practice in Ireland and the UK to bond all pipework with earth wires to the earthing (grounding) system in the building. This creates an equipotential zone and prevents electric shocks. It's necessary when you use a TNC earthing system.

TNC?

As far as I know we ground/earth the incoming electrical service to copper rods driven into the ground/earth, and to the incoming (cold) water service with a jumper cable on both sides of the water meter. Nothing more.

~Gas and water pipes *MUST* be bonded with earth cables.
We don't ground gas, I could bet the farm on it. It's not the sort of place you'd want static or reisual current.......

But fascinating (I) THANK YOU you for taking the time to educate all and myself as well.

BTW America, the shaver socket in the UK is NOT a regular outlet/socket/power-point. It is an isolating transformer for safety. Also in th UK IIRC 220v power-tools are NOT allowed on consruction-sites where 55v is required....someone please
cofirm that the little toggle-brain still works.

I was in a landromat in my 20's when the building's grouding/earthing connection to the water-main was disconnected as that pipe was being worked-on. OMG!!! The fluorescent lighting went dim and was flickering. The machines made noises and when when one dryer was started the whole place went dim and other dryers stopped......... It was BIZARRE! Apparently it is crucial to earth/ground.........

 

[toggleswitch]

OMG if that is soldered copper tubing/pipe on the gas service, I'm thinking that to my knowledge is not allowed here either. (a blow-torch with an open-flame on a gas pipe *SHUDDERS*)

We have threaded black-iron and galvanized(for high humidity areas) generally. Copper tubing WITH FLARED FITTING and black iron is permissible with LP (Liquified-propane /bottled gas). ow, corrugated (flexible) conectors (with a plactic yellow sheath of loos plastic over it) tend to run as main pipes with a central manfiold and cut-off valves going to various gas "branches". Similar to a fuse box in concept.

Fascinating to see how the same theories and laws of nature and physics are interpreted and manifested and evolve differently!

 

[toggleswitch]

THREADED black-iron and galvanized, that is!

 

[selectomatic]

At the risk of sounding jingoistic, 60Hz is better than 50Hz

For transformers of equal size and weight, a 60Hz transformer can have a 20% higher current rating than its 50Hz counterpart. There are similar differences in any electromagnetic device which runs directly on AC.

In general the higher the frequency, the smaller, lighter, cooler, and less expensive the transformer (or motor, relay, solenoid, etc.) This is no doubt a big reason that aircraft typically use 400Hz power.

As has already been mentioned, standard television has a refresh rate that's synchronized with the power line. That means that 50Hz systems have more noticeable flicker.

It's also true that standard fluorescent and neon lamps flicker twice each cycle. This isn't as noticeable, but it can be annoying.

With technology advancing as it has for some time now, most of these factors are no longer important. Most small power transformers (like the "Wall Warts" that charge your cell phone) are no longer actual transformers, but electronic power supplies which are smaller, lighter, cheaper, and which can often run on a very wide range of input voltages and frequencies without any problem.

I just this weekend replaced the fluorescent lights in my library with a newer, higher-efficiency type. The new ballasts will run on anything from 100-277V at 50 or 60 Hz. And the output frequency is much higher, so there's no flicker.

Since virtually all consumer electronics these days are being manufactured for a global market, we're going to see an increasing percentage of electronic devices that aren't frequency-specific, and quite a few that aren't voltage-specific.

-kevin

 

[panthera]

Of bondage and toggles

I confirm that your working brain is small.

(ducks and runs)

Ok, sorry...we all know you run rings around the rest of us here and I just couldn't resist. I wish more of us could develop your sense of lightness. Oh, dear, I did it again. Didn't mean in the loafers, but your approach...never mind, It is four am here and I just woke up. I thank the gods for your teasability. Too many of us take ourselves far too seriously. Did we just speak of ourselves in majestates pluralis?
Whatever:

Bonding simply means connecting everything together with conductive elements (cable, copper ribbon, etc.) so that there is equal potential across all surfaces.
Grounding or earthing means to discharge any potential through a conductive element such as a cable or copper ribbon into the earth/ground.

When they fill up the underground tanks at the gas station (petrol station in the UK), the first thing the driver does is to make sure that the truck, the filling hoses, the tanks, everything are bonded so that there is no possibility of static electric discharge which could ignite the gas vapor...what is the flash point of Benzin? -50°C or something?

By bonding everything together in a bathroom or kitchen, we make sure that the potential is the same on all surfaces.

That copper is not the thin walled stuff but seamless, thick walled and tested. It is safe.
Bonding and grounding gas lines is done in the US all the time...just look at a permanent propane set up. I think your reaction comes from our being taught to never, ever ground TO a gas line...for obvious reasons.

I agree with you tho', every time I am in the British Isles, things like that crop up which just throw me for a bit. Like putting the drains outside the building. Makes sense, really, but growing up in Colorado (our winters get down to -40° and colder...no C or F needed there girls and boys) or their large plugs and power points...well, they just look at things from a different perspective than North Americans and Germans do.

Of course TV is not synchronized to 50hz power supplies (nor to 60). If it ever was, that is long since past. It is true, of course that TV at 50 hz "flimmers" horribly. As did the old fluorescent (neon) lights. That is all becoming a thing of the past.

It may be wrong, but I was taught that 50Hz is slightly less dangerous for the heart than 60Hz is. Beats me. Like I said earlier, dead is dead, whether at 3 or 30 feet...and it doesn't take much of a shock to kill you nor, really, a very high voltage at all.
Probably we should rethink our distribution system radically. Harmonize on the considerably more efficient 230V, 60Hz for large consumers, 12V DC for small consumers and some sort of three-phase for stoves, washers, dryers, other heavy consumers.

 

[sudsmaster]

Dimly from my biology past...

I recall at one point learning that for the human nervous system, 50 Hz is indeed safer than 60 Hz. Has something to do with frequencies that interrupt our nerve impulses - 60 Hz being more disruptive than 50 Hz. But as I also recall, there's never been shown to be a practical problem, so it's more theory than reality.

When I get a chance I'll try to run down a reference for above.

 

[toggleswitch]

AHHH SIZE QUEEN!

~lightness in the loafers.
oh that's easy. Take your best red or black paent leather pumps with 4" (100mm) stiletto heels and hook them to the ceiling (paddle) fan...while still wearing them.

~Bonding and grounding gas lines is done in the US all the time.
...I'm not from Missouri, but SHOW ME!*

~What is the flash point of Benzin? -50°C or something?
BENZIN?
OK, now I'm confused because the Greeks use BENZIN(e) to mean gasoline. So what do YOU mean?

~Bonding simply means connecting everything together with conductive elements (cable, copper ribbon, etc.) so that there is equal potential across all surfaces.

I am honestly not aware of this technique used here. Will have to enquire. Pehaps mandatory in commercial buildngs.


I've seen TV documentaries where workers on high tension wires, that must stay live/active/hot while beign worked upon, are in a metallic "space-suits" and everthing gets bonded--- to each-other item and to the live conductor!!!!!! The helicopter as it hovers, the technician's suit EVERYTHING. YIKES!

*Missouri, the “Show Me State”.
A name attributed to Representative Willard Van Diver. It conotates a certain self-deprecating stubbornness and devotion to simple common sense.
source: State Names, Seals, Flags, and Symbols by Benjamin F. Shearer, Barbara S. Shearer

 

[panthera]

yeah, Rich,

Something like that... the heart being sync'd at 60Hz, the liver at 50 or whatever. I don't remember either. Do tell what you find out!
I'm still trying not to give in to all the bondage and H/C jokes which this thread provoke in my little brain.
By the by, splitter is technically right, but didn't Miele call them converters back in the day? Sort of like Miele called split-phase "two-phase" (please, o ye anal-retentive, don't start up again)?
It is not easy to settle on one term when you think in one language, were taught a basically obsolete and thoroughly made up language in school and are trying to write cogently in a third (German, "Oxford English", Modern English).

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, I did a quick Google on the topic, and I was unable to find anything that claimed 50 Hz was "healthier" than 60 Hz. And the scientific literature appears to be inconclusive that 60 Hz causes any significant health problems, either. A lot of the studies used both 50/60 hz and didn't seem to find any difference in the test tube... but then I didn't read all of them.

I did run across a fascinating history of various power frequencies, how 50/60 came into being, etc. Link follows.

http://www.answers.com/topic/utility-frequency

 

[sudsmaster]

Re: bonding

As far as I know, current code requires all water lines to be bonded if they connect copper to steel pipes. This reduces electric potential based corrosion of the "baser" metal (in this example, the steel). It may also be an electrical safety requirement, esp when a dielectric union is used to connect the water pipes, which is not electrically conductive, so a bonding wire is desirable if not required by code.

 

[panthera]

Great link,

Thanks, Rich!

 

[panthera]

tee-hee

Steve, I love you. The anal-retentive-PC-crowd are trying to have a serious discussion here and somebody forgot to send the men in the white suits after us.
With my first cup of coffee in me, let me reply to your comments:
AHHH SIZE QUEEN!
>>>You bet'cha I am. You are, of course, refering to our discussion of 10AWG wersus 12AWG on that other thread, right?
Right.

~lightness in the loafers.
oh that's easy. Take your best red or black paent leather pumps with 4" (100mm) stiletto heels and hook them to the ceiling (paddle) fan...while still wearing them.
>>>I admit to being handicapped, I just can't walk straight in less than a 6" heel.

~Bonding and grounding gas lines is done in the US all the time.
...I'm not from Missouri, but SHOW ME!*
>>>Ok, here is a composite of two illustrations on the topic (I still can't put more than one picture in one posting. Too d-u-m, dumb I guess...These are from the article from the link from below.
~What is the flash point of Benzin? -50°C or something?
BENZIN?
OK, now I'm confused because the Greeks use BENZIN(e) to mean gasoline. So what do YOU mean?
>>>So, sorry, was pre-coffee there and still thinking in German. Hard enough to try to remember all the left-handed UK terms for things...kept writing the color then the bird and finally got (I hope) the gas station. Benzin is the German word for Gasoline or Petrol for the British. It is not the same thing as the English "Benzine", by the by...

~Bonding simply means connecting everything together with conductive elements (cable, copper ribbon, etc.) so that there is equal potential across all surfaces.

I am honestly not aware of this technique used here. Will have to enquire. Pehaps mandatory in commercial buildngs.
>>>I know, it is one of those things which we don't notice unless we work in the business. I worked at a gas station for a while (desperate, broke, looks gone, all the street corners were already taken and those girls were nasty)

I've seen TV documentaries where workers on high tension wires, that must stay live/active/hot while beign worked upon, are in a metallic "space-suits" and everthing gets bonded--- to each-other item and to the live conductor!!!!!! The helicopter as it hovers, the technician's suit EVERYTHING. YIKES!

>>>Yikes, sounds scary. Especially considering the potential generated by the copter.

*Missouri, the “Show Me State”.
A name attributed to Representative Willard Van Diver. It conotates a certain self-deprecating stubbornness and devotion to simple common sense.
source: State Names, Seals, Flags, and Symbols by Benjamin F. Shearer, Barbara S. Shearer

>>>Toggles, if you are self-deprecating, then all I can say is, well, never mind. Like I said above - I love you. If only we could squeeze you and refine you and serve you up to some of the anal-retentives around here, life would be soooo much easier...
Oh, a spoonful of sugar makes...Nope, not gonna go there, oh dear me no. But check out this link:

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/04_c/johnston.htm

 

[toggleswitch]

Thanks!

 

[MrX]

The reason for bonding is pretty complex

Earthing/Grounding systems are a lot more complex than people think. It's not just a matter of connecting your appliances / metal surfaces to a big grounding rod. There are all sorts of other issues.

Basically, what's done in most Irish installations is as follows (The UK's similar but not identical).

At a point just before the meter, the power company connects the main ground in the house (which has independent ground rods too) directly to their supply neutral. Their neutral is grounded with rods at regular intervals all the way back to the supply transformer, so will always remain at 0V. This approach to grounding is similar to the US too. It gives you a much more secure ground than a simple ground rod.

The problem is that plumbing systems are connected to long runs of underground metal pipe work. This can act as a neutral / ground conductor in the event of a major neutral fault on the supply system. i.e. the pipework can become live. Basically 'stray neutrals' will attempt to find a way back to the transformer they came from / the earth and will do so via any conductor available - pipes are ideal.

So, in order to prevent any risk of currents flowing / potential difference, we interconnect all the metal pipes (gas and electric) with the ground which is interconnected to the power company's grounded neutral system. So, absolutely everything's at the same potential and there's no risk of discharge or electric shock.

For gas pipes / explosive environments it actually eliminates the risk of sparks!

Obviously as more and more plastic pipe becomes the norm, some of these problems are at least partially eliminated. However, we still insist on bonding absolutely everything where a TN, TN-C or TN-S system is in use i.e. where the power company supplies a grounded neutral conductor.

The UK basically uses the same system, but does not necessarily require the local grounding rods and there are minor differences in how the interconnection between the main house ground and the supply grounded neutral is done.