eurr outlets

[panthera]

breath in, breath out

You're right, Steve. Sorry folks if I misjudged anyone's intents.
Yup, Toggles, my dad called it lamp wire, too. And my gramp's called it zip wire and only let me use it as speaker wire.
I think it was originally called zip because you just pull on the too ends and, zip! it is apart.
Unfortunately, the insulation is not that much harder to accidentaly pull off...
I recently replaced ten or so of the beasties (someone out their in applianceville knows where and whose) with brand new, safer ones. But they seem to generate spontaneously.
Ok, so now I need help...how do I get the spell check on Firefox to work under Vista? I miss it, I do!

 

[MrX]

Basically the rule in Europe is that everything has to be double-insulated, including cable. So, it all has an inner sheath on the individual cables and an outer sheath covering that. You have it in the US on most things, but you also have the 'zip cord' type stuff on a lot of appliances too.

As for the cable on the European appliances being thinner, because the voltage is twice as high, the cable can be half the thickness. Ohms law!

 

[petek]

Well I think it's high time Europe and Australia did away with all that foolishness and started using the right type of electricity like we have over here. It would be so much simpler to swap stuff too. And while they're at it the UK and Oz could also work on driving on the right side of the road instead of the wrong side LOL

 

[selectomatic]

Well, Pete, at least the Australians have an excuse what with the coriolis effect and all. They don't even know when winter's supposed to be, how can you expect them to drive on the right side of the road?

Actually, voltage and plugs and cords and all of that aren't that big a problem to deal with -- it's 50Hz vs. 60Hz power that can be a real bugger.

-kevin

 

[lasvegasrox]

i wanna buy the new hotpoint washer and like yah or that touch control washer and if i wnated to buy a complete appliance set from miele and bring it here

 

[sudsmaster]

You haven't lived until...

...until you've seen clear lamp cord being used for permanent exposed outside lighting wiring (in Guatemala)...

 

[sudsmaster]

PS-One reason why the US seems to get "away" with using single-insulated "zip cord" for lights and small appliances is probably because of the dielectric issue. 110 volts is about half as likely to arc across an insulator as 220 volts. So double insulation is probably more important for 220 volt wiring than it is for 110 volt lines. Of course, it's also a good idea if the wiring is going to be subjected to abrasion/heat/light.

Even so, as a result of this thread I'm seriously considering getting double insulated wiring for rewiring various electric powered items around my home... especially those that need to be rewired anyway, and those with wiring running in areas with more traffic/disturbance.

 

[launderess]

Getting Back On Topic

Bringing a Euro/UK washing machine to the United States will depend, as another poster stated on how much and what type of power is required, and what is being powered as well.

You have already found out that most European wiring is 220v/240v single phase (that is one wire brings in 220v), versus the United States system of two wires each at 120v but out of phase with each other. There is also the matter European/UK power is at 50hz and the United States at 60hz.

Older washing machines and other appliances with simple electronics and or mechanical systems might not be bothered with the switch, provided one hooks them up carefully. However modern washing machines with computers/motherboards probably will not work, or work very well because the computers are set for 50hz, running them at 60hz can cause all sorts of problems ranging from faster cycles to increased spin speeds.

To run an appliance that needs single phase 220v power exclusivly, the simple solution would be to use a step-up converter rated at least 50% more than the maxium power draw of the appliance. That is to say if the washer draws 2500w, the coverter should be rated at least 5000w. Converters however will not change the frequency (hz) of the power, thus if the appliance truly needs 50hz versus 60hz, you will need a box to change frequency in addition to the converter, these are dear and quite large.

Converters for use in the United States generally stop at 3000watts, which is slighlty over the max power that can be safely drawn (by code) from a 20amp electrical circut in the United States. While you can find converters at 4000w, 5000w and up to 10,000w, it is not generally safe draw that much power from a 20amp circut for a long period of time. The last two converters are almost always sold as units which must be hardwired into the home's electrical system.

Being as all the above may, there are/were several persons who purchased AEG washing machines either from a source in Canada (Euro-line appliances), which run on European 220v/50hz power. IIRC Euro-line gave instructions upon shipment on how to make the units work with American power. IIRC, one person even ran his off a converter. Occasionally one sees other European washers and or dryers for sale in the United States, some apparently used here, which means the owner's found a way to make them run.

In regards to power draw; if you do not intend to use the washing machine's heaters often or for long periods of time, you *might* get away with using the washer with a converter. That is to say if one sets the machine to "tap cold" and uses whatever water comes into the washer, and or starts with water say at 120F and heats it to 140F, pulling 2400 watts for a short period of time may not cause damage, however I'd speak to an electrican and have him see what sort of condition your wiring/outlets are in before considering such a move. Appliances such as washing machines pull their max power when heating water, usually their motors are 90watts or less, then there is some power to run other systems, but again they are much less than the 2500w or so used to power the heating elements. Even the max draw of the heating elements is only a short part of the cycle (depending upon incoming water temp versus desired water temp).

You would need a dedicated 20amp circut, with proper wiring from the panel to outlet, not merely a 20amp breaker/fuse installed in the panel and outlet changed.

Personally unless the washing machine in question is so extraordinary to warrant such time and effort, I wouldn't bother. You can find many good vintage Miele washing machines in the United States that run on American 220v, that will do boil and very hot washes, the main reason for all that power.

 

[sudsmaster]

50 Hz vs 60 Hz

A lot depends on how the electronics is designed. For example, the standard in Japan is 115v 50Hz. I bought a boombox type of radio/tape/cassette player (Panasonic) while I was in Japan. It was set up for 115/50 hz operation, but it runs just fine on American 120v/60Hz power. The reason is that like most modern consumer electronic equipment, it converts AC to DC to run the electronics, so the frequency really doesn't matter. Frequency also wouldn't matter to resistance heaters in a washer. The remaning issue would be the motor and pump... and I got nothing there, other than that universal motors (with brushes) run on anything from DC to AC, so they shouldn't mind 50 Hz instead of 60 Hz.

But I agree. Too much uncertainty, fuss, and bother to get all the ducks lined upto run a UK spec washer in the USA, whenperfectly good 220 volt euro washers are still available here (at least used, if not new).

 

[panthera]

Thank you

Laundress, I think you have put together the last word on the subject. A definitive essay on what works and is practical for the average person.
One thing which I have yet to see suggested, but would work very well if one had the outdoor space available, would be a Honda generator with the 220v 50Hz output. Would have to be one of the better ones, obviously, but yup, if'n I had a garage I could electrically isolate from the rest of the 60Hz world and neighbors who could live with the muffled but still noticeable sound, that is precisely what I would do.
If, of course, I wanted a new European washer. But, why? As we have seen, a W1070 or even older is just about the closest thing to perfection there is.
Imagine - a Unimatic, a late 1950's Miele and one of those Norges with the attachable hair bonnet. Perry Como on the stereo (I am thinking something like a 1959 VM console), the latest issue of Life and an Eames easy chair...
Gosh, I might just shock my family and make something like this up for a Christmas doll house.

(Obviously, I'd be in their, too...hmm, Jackie-O high hair or tightly drawn into a bun with Dagmars...)

That'll give the fundies in the family something to mull over...

 

[launderess]

Didn't Wish To Go There

Generator power, though "easy" enough if one has experience and knows what one is doing, is just too dangerous if someone for instance tried to run the thing indoors. Don't laugh but many people in the United States each year die of carbon monoxide poisioning from running generators indoors/in an enclosed space. Do agree however that if one was say running the washer in say a garage or laundry porch a generator would do the trick. Heck women ran Maytag gasoline powered washers that way for ages.

One thing to consider is the cost of running a generator factored into the overall cost of running the washing machine. Then there is also the pollution, unless one runs the thing on natural gas. Even then there is the noise.

L.

 

[sudsmaster]

Back during the California electricity crisis in 2000, I researched the cost of generating electricity using a natural gas generator, vs. buying it from the utility. The best case was that the cost of the natural gas equalled or surpassed the cost of buying the same amount of electricity from the utility. That did not include the capital required to purchase the generator, install it, and maintain it.

A possible alternative would be to install a solar electric system, and buy an inverter that supplies 50 Hz 220 instead of 60 Hz 110. Of course, you'd probably need a battery storage system so that you could do boil washes in the dark of a winter's night. For the cost of such an installation, you could probably by a few dozen brand new US-spec Mieles.

 

[panthera]

CO

I know about that danger, it happens here in Europe all to often. We tend to make fun of the yee-haw, d-u-m--spells dumb and proud of it--US mentality, but that one is a big problem here.
Some folks just don't get it.

I wish we would figure out some sort of energy storage system that people could agree on. Take a look at the cooperation between the hydro-electric dam at Kaprun, Austria and the French nuclear industry.

Hydro-electric plants are the very best solution when you have to ramp up fast to meet demand peaks. Nuclear power plants are the worst at that sort of challenge.
Whatever one may think of nuclear energy, it is good for producing a constant level of supply (I, myself, am a proponent of fusion...as long as it is located exactly one astronomical unit away from me).

So the two production consortiums have an agreement. The excess capacity of the nuclear plants in the night is used to pump water back up to behind the dam. During the day, the demand peaks are met by letting the water run back downhill, making available (oops, got to phrase this carefully or the anal-retentives will charge in on their White Steeds...) energy to fill the demands.
It just seems so natural to me to harnass solar energy and wind energy in a similar way, use them to pump water uphill and then let it run downhill to provide energy when needed.

Unfortunately, fundamentalists are not only of the christianist persuassion. You can find some of the least flexible minds and spirits in the world in the Green parties.

Over here in Germany, we actually have had wind farms (we have areas of Germany that make Wyoming look wind-still) closed down because of the 'shadows' the windmills might have cast and the vague, theoretical possibility that the birds might be too stupid to figure out that the vanes of a windmill move...not to mention the horror of the noise which wind makes (!!!!).

Sigh.

 

[panthera]

From Wikipedia

I don't usually believe everything I find in Wikipedia and I am (gradually) learning to curb my, er, pen, when someone makes a slight mistake.
This little section from Wikipedia is interesting and, I think, offers a good explanation for some of the terms we all bat around here:
British English-American English
mains power- line power
earth connection- ground connection
flex/mains lead- cord
socket, power point- outlet, receptacle, socket
pin- prong or plug

In the United States, the live contact may be called live or hot. The neutral contact may be called cold, neutral, return, the grounded conductor, or (in the National Electrical Code), the identified conductor. The earth contact is called ground or the grounding conductor.

In the United Kingdom the word "line" is occasionally used to denote the live terminal or wire. This terminology derives from its being at the line voltage relative to neutral and ground, as distinct from the "phase" voltage, between lines on different phases of the supply.

Live conductors are called phases when there is more than a single phase in use. Pins are also known as prongs, contacts or terminals.

In Australia, the live contact is called active.

Since many Americans use the UK terms and vice-versa, this should all be taken with a grain of salt.

Am posting a link to the entire article - some interesting stuff there.

AC power plugs and sockets - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MrX]

Japan

Japanese appliances are actually a rather weird spec.

Japan uses 100V 50Hz and 60Hz.
One side of Japan was electrified under European influence and the other after the US occupation so ended up with 60Hz.
So the vast majority of Japanese appliances are set up to cope with 50Hz or 60Hz.

Also, they use 100V NOT 110 to 125V as per the US / Canada. Some sensitive Japanese appliances will burn out on a US supply that goes much beyond 110V.
You can actually buy US-Japanese transformers that step it down slightly.

As for double-insulated cable - it's just European safety standards are slightly different to those in the US. The main reason is that it avoids mechanical wear and tear damaging the cables. You would find US-style Zipcord on some small appliances manufactured in Europe before the 1970s.

Lamp cord and zip cord are no longer legally available in the EU. Even lamps have double-insulated cable.

 

[MrX]

EU/US

There are just different priorities and ideologies behind EU and US wiring. The majority of the world uses 220-230V 50Hz. For that reason, they generally follow (at least vaguely) European CENELC standards.

Those using 60Hz 110V systems generally follow (also vaguely) US NEMA standards.

 

[MrX]

Here are the plug types

This one gives you the plug types

A - US style 15A NEMA plug (ungrounded)
B - US style 15A NEMA grounded
C - Europlug Ungrounded (Small appliances only 2.5A moulded on)
D - Obsolete UK BS546 (Round pin - 3 sizes) 1 to 15Amp 230V Groudned
*E - CEE 5/7 (French plug - schuko compatible) - replaced by CEE 7/7 16A grounded
*F - CEE 4/7 (Schuko) - replaced by CEE 7/7 16A Grounded
G - BS1365 UK/Ireland 13A plug Grounded
H - Israeli plug (16A) Grounded
I - Australian / NZ plug - 10A Grounded
J - Swiss 10A Grounded
K - Italian (being phased out in favour of CEE 7/7) 16A and 10A Grounded
L - Danish (being phased out in favour of CEE 7/7) Grounded
M - 15A version of BS546, used in south africa, obsolete in UK/IRL Grounded

 

[toggleswitch]

~Lamp cord and zip cord are no longer legally available in the EU. Even lamps have double-insulated cable.

May I ask what a cord-set (flex-cord) to, say, percolator looks like? Are these generally detachabble over the pond as we'd see here?

I'm also curious as to table lamps. On my continent I see the switch as a turn-switch near the lamp(bulb) holder. Euro-inspired designs (well, the stuff I see out of IKEA) tends to have a switch on the cord itself. Is this a safety thing as well? Perhaps to keep fingers away from the electrical contacts of the socket/lamp holder?

 

[dj-gabriele]

Hi Steve!

(Speaking for Italy)
Here we use standard IEC connectors (like the ones on the computers) for everything that has a detachable cord, the 2 line pins plus earth a little up than those.
Plus I think that there's an error on the Wikipedia article... the Italian plug isn't being phased out at all.
Anyway, just to show I photographed all the plugs available around here.

1,3,4 Fit all in the same standard Italian plug receptacle.
2 Fits in hybrid or Schuko receptacles.

 

[dj-gabriele]

I forgot about the lamps...
Usually the switches are all on the cord (that is double insulated too) but it's not unusual to have a switch on the body of the lamp (usually the base), it's just less common, I guess it's just a habit!