EVERYBODY should read this!

[ronhic]

In reply to the timer/reliability/repair issue

Miele has been making electronic programmers for well over 20yrs now and Asko/ASEA for a similar length of time...

Some of the cheaper Euro/British brands, such as Hoover and Servis also had electronic programmer machines in the mid/late 1980's such as the Servis Starlight pictured....

Granted, when they first started coming out, there were undoubtedly timer issues and they can be expensive to replace simply because service agents and manufacturers don't intend them to be serviced as such....but then look at the hourly rate you're paying to have your machine looked at and ask yourself do you want to pay the man for, possibly several hours of, labour to fix it or just replace it and pay the same amount....

I have just had the suspension struts done on the Zanussi/westinghouse....only 3 1/2yrs old, but has done on average 14 loads a week...so I am not complaining...but here is the breakdown of the bill...

Call out - $76.00
Struts - $87.10
Labour - $60.00...for 15minutes! and is fairly standard BTW

Total -$223.10
Tax -$ 22.30

Total -$245.40

So that is about GBP122 and USD$211.....

We may think that manufacturers are ripping us off with parts prices, and they may be sometimes, but give me replacement over repair anytime when the call fee and labour comes to more than 150% of the part price...

 

[toggleswitch2]

The reapair-techie posted a chart based on his (limited) experiences and his perspectives.

If say there are 100 (thousand) "Alpha" brand machines in his area and and 5% of them need repars, he needs to repair 5 of them. So he "sees" that 5 machine have been repaired. Brand "Omega" has 50 (thousand) machines in his area and 7% need repair. So he has to work on 3.5 of them. Will he not say that brand "Alpha" are less reliable? In actuality which is the worse machine? It is not brand "Omega"?

But unless he knowns exaclty how many machines of each brand are out there, he knows not what is "good" and what is "bad". He only sees some statistics and does not have enough information to properly come to a reasoanble and accurate conclusion.

 

[ronhic]

"Here Here!'

...and how very true....

 

[toggleswitch2]

The Ariston (means "Excellence" in Greek)950 XD was my aunt's washer/dryer. It was branded Comb-o-matic here in the States and was 110v only (read: horribly slow [low-wattage] dryer).
On our electrical stystem that is a max of less than 1725w @ 115v. Washer cycles/programmes were numbered 1 through 10 rather than system shown.

 

[neptunebob]

I wonder why the British makers of front loaders did not try to sell their units in America. If maybe we had a good experience like you do with your machines, there would be plenty of them here by now.

 

[mixfinder]

Maytag

I have very limited experience with front loading machines. I am quite certain I would be guilty of under loading a front loading washer. A condo in the early 70's had a Westinghouse stacked set. I was very pleased with the white Cook's uniforms and found it did an impeccable job. My last front loader, an Equator, did a splendid job of washing and a terrible job of drying. The directions said to load it leaving enough room to put your arm in at the top of basket. In the end the tub broke off the drive shaft making the spinning washer a projectile. Fortunately it was confined by the bathroom walls. Peter has a Neptune set that is 9 years old. It received a wax motor and damper update in a machine recall. It has never had another repair. Peter, his sister and father all do their laundry separately. For three years Peter's older sister and two children lived with him. She would literally use her foot to mash clothes into the washer and hold the door until the lock engaged. It is the dryer that seems to have borne the brunt of her over loading. It rumbles and groans, but still works. My son and his wife bought a TOL Sears set and they like it very much. I observe it being grossly underloaded, but then he is my son and I can tell how many pairs of Levis are in the washer just by the sound. Years of preaching against over loading top loaders has stuck. My most noticable issue with front loaders is not rinsing out the soap and as a result, having contact dermatitis from the clothes I was wearing. Peter uses liquid All HE free. On Peter's machine using the Whites setting, which offers a hot rinse helped. Membrane buttons and no clear visual of how to modify the cycle, skip, repeat etc are not options on many front loaders on the market. Dials and timers seem to live in greater harmony with water, steam and moisture than a goofy vinyl coated bunch of wires that cost upwards of $300.00.

 

[norfolksouthern]

They did, Bob. My Zerowatt was labeled under the "excellence" brand name. I'm thinking that mine didn't catch on because of the slower spin speed; similar to that of a coin-operated Wascomat, and smaller capacity. The higher spin speed may be the reason for Asko's and Miele's success here. Of course, those don't sell as well as the HE3t's/LGs/Samsungs because people want bigger capacity and easier loading/unloading. So, they go that route instead.

For something new, yet non-commercial, I would opt for a Speed Queen top loader. If I were wanting a new front loader, I would look for a 20 pound Unimac soft mount. Both of these brands are made by Alliance.

NorfolkSouthern

 

[jeffg]

For us the major issue is time. All my partner and I have known since we were kids have been top loaders, and in our world, anything longer than 30 minutes to wash a load of clothes is just time wasted. Sometimes we'll wake up in the morning, discover we need something washed, and it'll be ready to go 50-60 minutes later, depending on cycle. Try that with most FL washers/dryers!

 

[whirlcool]

Of course, here is a better link to the original article.

http://www.allbrandservicenaperville.com/products-washer.html

 

[ronhic]

Jeff

This article started life about reliability, not speed of cycle....

BUT, seeing as you have a valid point......

My machine, in fact most European machines come to think of it, now have a 'refresh' cycle. 30min, 1/2 load (say 5-7lb), 30c...my machine only spins at 700rpm on that cycle so I tend to 'rinse/hold' and give it a hard spin @ 1200rpm...total of 35min...

....so if something is worn 'once' you can run it through in a quick time

...New Bosch have a 15min cycle for small loads, so your scenario holds no water compared to, say, 10yrs ago.

 

[launderess]

If one allows for the fact the man is speaking of things in his own manor, then one finds many of the comments rather true.

Until recently Miele washing machines sold in the United States did have a rather small capacity, but then again so did the rest of the European front loaders. This mania of large and super large capacity did not hit Miele, and the rest until they decided to actually design washers for the way Americans do laundry.

Furthermore, yes Miele parts ARE hard to get (only available from Miele), and they like the appliances themselves are rather dear. OTHO one can get parts for all and sundry Miele appliances right off the shelf in many UK/European appliance parts stores. Much as Americans do with brands such as GE or Whirlpool.

From what one has read, historically yes, top loading washing machines (at least those built in the USA for the USA market), did last longer than say the average front loader, which until recently was really only Westinghouse's front loader.

Why? Simple design differences between the two. Take 10 pounds of wet laundry and it becomes more like 50lbs or more. Suspend in a basket mounted only on one bearing, and work from there. Mind you if the machine was taken care of, then front loaders could and did last long, a look at the many vintage Westinghouse units that pop up is proof to that.

Obviously the man hasn't tested or seen many other front loading units from Europe (where the quality was worked out years ago), and bases his recommendations on things such as the Maytag Neptune.

Even the smallest commercial front loader costs several thousands. Such units are designed properly and made to last the duration. Amercians by and large aren't fully onboard with front loading washers, and if weren't for the federal government pushing the idea, one thinks they wouldn't sell much at all. However costly such uber front loaders say by Samsung, or Maytag, or GE are, they are machines designed to come in at a certian price point.

 

[askomiele]

Ok guy's and garls, thought this was a friendly neighbou

but help what are you guys doing. We all know that we on this forum know 100 times more about washers, brands, and other applainces that this guy will ever do IN HIS LIFE! We studied all machines in different forms and different functions. We have testresults that tell us what crap there is on the market and what the good machines are. Never forget that these words are just put together to look pretty on a website or in a magazine!

What we must do:
STOP THE SILLY DISCUSSION ABOUT ARE FRONTLOADERS BETTER THAN TOPLOADERS, because the point is they are better at some points, but they aren't at others. This brings me to my second point. If we all want to save the planet... it's not about how expensive your washer is, it's how you use it! If people want to wash in a GE RAMPOMATIC (sorry can't find the right type, but you know the filterflotypes with HUGE baskets,...) and do full loads, maybe even save the rinse water. What's the big deal?

 

[norfolksouthern]

"they are machines designed to come in at a certian pri

And there's part of the problem with most of today's front loaders. I guess I'm a bit of a contrarian, as I want a heavy spin bearing and a stainles steel outer tub. I also want enough water to flush out the detergent on rinse, and a big motor to provide me with adequate drama and entertainment. I especially like the idea of a heavy suspension that can take what ever gets thrown at it. I think that would rule out most of what's available at the local Home Depot.

Everybody else? Well, they just want to wash cloths. So when theirs breaks down just slightly beyond the warranty, they'll go get another one. The typical U.S. consumer pays for the USE of the product, not the product its self. That's what the throwaway society is all about. Meanwhile, I am still looking for that Calypso that hasn't yet developed any issues or rusted beyond fixing. Some day, I maybe I'll get lucky.

NorfolkSouthern

 

[vintagesearch]

neptunebob said

"I wonder why the British makers of front loaders did not try to sell their units in America. If maybe we had a good experience like you do with your machines, there would be plenty of them here by now"

as neptunebob said i second that although we are opting for a frontloader in the future here in my house they are slightly more repair prone as a group compared to what were used to as a whole, what is that you ask? a toploader!!! it just takes a good purchase on a reliable model and some education on how to use them PERIOD!

 

[ronhic]

Which is what....

.....I basically said earlier...

Educate people how to use them, and many of the 'issues' will quite simply go away....

 

[twinniefan]

Top load vs front load

I tend to agree with posters who say this is just a never ending and no win argument, each style of machine has it's own particular benefits and drawbacks it is just a matter of doing some homework and deciding which would best suit your particular needs.
Personally, after my dreadful experience with the Bosch F.L., I am kind of turned off them,but that does not mean at some time in the future I would not consider owning another one,it just would not be a Bosch,at the moment I am really happy with my L.G. T.L.it does everything I expect and has not let me down.
Ronhic ,you make an excellent point about people learning how to use their machines properly to get the best out of them,however,I think most people just go by the theory of chuck the washing in the machine turn a knob or push a key and hey presto all done and they end up disappointed when the wash isn't up to the standard they expect when the real cause of the problem is their own inability to use the thing correctly or by incorrect loading.
The old stuff it all in for one single,quick load still holds sway I believe, indeed my neighbourhood friends don't believe that we don't stick 2-3 days worth of total washing in even though my machine has an 8.5kg capacity we still prefer to wash slightly smaller loads. the water isn't really a problem because the machine senses the weight of the load and adjusts the water level required automatically and if needed I can override by using the keyboard manually.
If I may digress a little I also looked at the tech's article on fridges just to see what he says about G.E.and I am a bit surprised that his views basically mirror the view that Peter,the service tech who fixed my G.E. S.B.S. twice earlier this year in as much as the cost of replacement parts are horrendously expensive and there are regular reliability issues with G.E.i.e.frequent service calls etc, although the tech in the article seems to be anti L.G. and Samsung, yet if one looks at Choice magazine,(our local consumer magazine.)L.G. and Samsung have very high approval ratings by those surveyed around the mid 90% the same as the local Westinghouse/Kelvinator.
Indeed Peter my tech actually went as far as to advise me when the time comes to discard the G.E.(hopefully not for quite a while though.)I should give serious consideration to purchasing a new L.G. fridge as performance wise they match it with any and they actually do keep quite a lot of spare parts for repairs and the spare parts are relatively inexpensive.
I think there is aslo a view in the community that because something is made in an Asian country that it is automatically inferior and will last 2 minutes,well speaking only from personal experience and use, they are not as bad as made out,for example Chinese made Haier T.T. is now 4 years old and going well,Korean made T.V.,7 years old and perfect,Korean made vacuum cleaner 9 years old and still working great,Korean made microwave oven,6 years old going great, but has now been given to a cousin who did not have one and been replaced by another Korean made model,working well,Korean made washing machine, only 18 months old but going quite well.
No offence intended ,but American made fridge/freezer serviced 3 times in one year and before that local Australian made fridge serviced 5 times in 1 year.

 

[favorit]

Listening is an attitude

I don't want to be rude and anyway I apologize about what I'm about to write, in case anyone could be offended by my words.

My guess is this forum is an amazing way to get in touch with different frames of mind.
Despite we're talking about plain things as the likes of washers, indeed we can share our different habits and cultures

This is possible only if we are able to listen to the others, otherwise we don't communicate but just produce (unlistedned) words.
Monologues have nothing to do communication.

Listening doesn't mean just hearing. IMHO we really listen to the others we we are able to "think in their clothes".
We really listen only if we leave aside our frame of mind and try to think as the other would do.

If I guess my thoughts are "the truth", there's no hope to listen to the others .....

So I don't want to be be too serious, enjoy this ....laundromat ! Oh yeah, it's a row of washers ;-)

 

[hoover1100]

Oh God here we go again *rolls eyes*

Toploader1984...

First of all you cannot say a top loader is more reliable than a front loader. Some top loaders are more reliable than some front loaders (eg.modern Samsung, LG etc) and some front loaders are more reliable than some toploaders (remember Miele make the most reliable washers on the market, that's not opinion thats fact)

You happened to have an LG, these machines are horrendously overpriced and are some of the worst on the market for balancing on spin and reliability. You are judging all front loaders by your experience of this one, which isn't fair.

You sing the praises of Speed Queen appliances, in my dorms at uni last year we had commercial Speed Queen front loaders. These particular machines were actually cold fill only and heated the water themselves, making the cycle times well over an hour. Despite all this, after a few months my whites were more dull and dingy than anything I've ever seen before, despite using copious amounts of Ariel (the leading brand) powder. Perhaps I should have drenched them in chlorine bleach, but my whites are always gleaming from any other front loader without it.

Having also used a 1970s Maytag, a belt drive Kenmore, and modern Whirlpool Toploaders, they all left a lot to be desired, especially where coating everything in lint was concearned.

Top loaders and US front loaders with really short cycle times do clean the clothes I don't deny that, but it seems great lengths are needed to get whites whites, such as soaking, using tons of additives and lots of chlorine bleach. I actually suspect this is more to do with the poor quality and design of American detergents than the machines, as the Aussies don't seem to have the same problems with their top loaders.

In my personal view (now this is opinion which you can take into account or not) washing in a top loader or a US front loader is like washing dishes by hand, whereas using a European front loader is like washing dishes in a dishwasher. Both methods will clean stuff, but I doubt anyone on here would say dishes are cleaner by hand than by machine, and washing them be hand is a lot more effort.

I think if you had actually used European detergents and machines you would think differently about them. I'd say the reason most Europeans will disagree with you is that we have often tried both methods and know which one is best AND most efficient.

Matt

 

[launderess]

Repair Prone Front Loaders

This does not have to always be the case.

Miele and other European/UK H-Axis washing machines, especially vintage and or TOL models such as V-Zug are quite rugged machines, and often give years of service before repair is required, if ever.

Again, rubbish in equals rubbish out. Nothing is wrong switching from electro-mechanical timers or even electronic timers to computer controlled machines, long as the parts are up to the job. However often is the case there are more than one weak links, and when the machine fails costs of repair are dear.

Long cycle times with front loaders, at least modern ones are caused by several factors, one of which is the movement away from timers to totally computer controlled machines. On my vintage Miele can make cycles long or short as one wishes, skip rinses and so forth, all by moving the timer.

Today's modern detergents clean quite well with short cycle times in front loaders, and the best rinse cleanly without four or five rinses. Even better in vintage front loaders like mine that use enough water per cycle to get the job done.

Will agree there isn't a "best" machine, just a washer that suits one's purposes. However will say the American man who firs saw Wascomat washing machines on a Swedish ship realised at once they would do for commercial/laundromat applications in the United States. Top loading machines weren't really suited to the hard use of such conditions (or so the man's theory went", and the rest as they say is history. One rarely finds top loading washing machines in commercial laundries. Most laundromats have either totally switched over to front loading washers, or they make up a majority of washing machines. There has to be a reason for this.

 

[mrwash]

I will not say anything for or against top- or frontloaders but only this:

When I was born my mother bought a toploader from Constructa(part of Siemens/Bosch). It ran until I turned 18 years, then we sold it because of a bathroom makeover. It was still working at this time. My mother decided to replace the Conctructa toploader by a Miele frontloader. Guess what: It will have its 10th b-day next year and still running. We replaced the rubber gum one time because of a tiny hole but this was it.

So..what do you guys think, I want to say with my post? ;-)