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Soaking vs. extended tumbling

12 hours soaking = x hours tumbling, where x is ????

x is probably much less than 12, if for no other reason than because tumbling continually brings fresh detergent and bleach into contact with the fabric, in contrast to quiescent soaking. Also, tumbling takes place in a machine that maintains the water at 140F, in contrast to soaking, where the water will cool down over such an extended period. Per the detergent manufacturers' trade association site, "Water temperature affects the bleaching rate of oxygen bleaches. Hot water accelerates the bleaching action. As water temperature decreases below 130 degrees F, exposure time must be increased substantially."

 
Yeabut

One of the benefits of oxygen bleaching is that it can be controlled via water temperature. Persons for instance engaged in textile conservation and or restoration like using oxygen bleach (sodium perborate, sodium percarbonate or hydrogen peroxide liquid), in cooler water temps and long soaking because it is much less aggressive. Sure one could shift stains and yellowing by boiling or using hot to very hot water, which certianly would speed up the bleaching process, but it also very well would damage fragile textiles.

Of the oxygen bleaches, sodium percarbonate will bleach even in cool or cold water on it's own. Sodium perborate really needs temps >130F to get going, with >140F better still. Hence all those European washing machines with temperatures settings up to 200F. OTHO when one uses a bleaching activator, both the disenfection, whitening and stain removal properties of perborate bleach happen at lower temps. Indeed the sweet spot is between 120F to 140F, however activity still occurs at 100F or lower.

European commercial laundries have access to detergents with activated oxygen bleach certified to provide full disenfection at 140F with minimum of ten minutes contact time. Such detergents are mainly used by hospitals, nursing homes, and so forth or commercial laundry services for the same.

L.
 
Toploader1984.....

I sold my 1997 Frigidaire Gallery front load washer and matching electric dryer with reverse tumble action (neat feature) to my next door neighbor when I moved here in 2000 because I needed a gas dryer in my house. That machine is still going with no problems for her family of 4 people. Not one repair, not one problem with either the washer or the dryer.

I guess that blows a big hole in your argument...it's much older than 5 years old since it will be 13 years old in February. And that's just a Frigidaire!!
 
Fact:The first automatic washer was a front loader.

Fact:Proctor and Gamble "brainwashed" customers that the more suds you see,the cleaner your clothes/dishes/floors will get.

Fact:Suds do not get your clothes clean.It's the softness of the wash water along with anionic and nonionic serfactants which trap and hold stains and dirt out of the fabrics.

Fact:Oversudsing retards(slows down) the washing action in both agitator type and horizontal axis type washers.It also,when excessive can cause overflowing onto the floor and posibly oxydation of metal washer parts and cabinitry.

Fact:Agitator type,especialy oscilating ones,ware out and damage fabrics.You want proof? wash a load in a top loading washer and another in a front loading washer.Be sure the dryer lint screan is clean before you dry each load.After the cycle ends,check and see how much less lint there is in the load washed in the front loader.

fact:Front loaders,within 5 years,save you enough money on water,detergent,bleach,fabric softner,energy use,dry cleaning bills and clothing replacement to pay for themselves.Two years to make up the difference in price as aposed to buying a top loader

Fact:Front loaders have absolutely no transmission.
Some actualy have no pullies or belts (L.G.).

Fact:Front loaders are much,much quieter than top loaders.

Fact:Most issues regarding service calls are caused by customer ignorance. For Example,the mold/mildew found to be an issue nationwide is because the owners refuse to leave the door of the front loaders ajar after finished doing laundry.Answer me this,Would you leave a refrigerator/freezer door closed if you turned it off for a few days????Why not? you leave your washer door closed right after you stop washing a few days. Not one of my front load washer customers who followed my advice ever called me complaining about mildew forming in their washer.Those who ndid not follow my simple advice were the ones who had constant issues.I have seen many with the shipping tape covering the electronic control panels stiil there.I had one customer bitch at me because the washer she got had a blue control panel on it and the one she saw and bought had white!!!!---Don't go there.I am embaressed to tell you what I did.

Fact:All front loaders have a "Quick cycle" available as well as an extra rinse option.If you don't want an hour to two hour long cycle,just select the quick cycle option.I used it frequently on my L.G.and it had a wadsh with two deep rinses and a final 1200 rpm spin.It took only 28 minutes from start to finish and did an outstanding job.my Askos also had that option and took only 35 minutes from a wash and 4 rinses followed by a 1600 rpm final spin.

I do not hate top loaders.The Speed Queens are great.Before the take over,I liked the Maytags.There durability was great and the porcelain on zink steel tubs rarely rusted.I had some issues with Whirlpool(belt drives spin too slow and dds tore up my clothes) and hated the GE Filter Flo method.Seeing dirty/sudsy backwash coming through a slit with lint hanging out of it just doesn't seam to be that clean to me.However,the mini baskets made great plant pots!!The Frigidaires would be almost as good as the SQs if they'd get that damned indexing tub system redesigned.However,it's a bit too late for that because I think that top loading agitator washers are going to be heading the same direction as wringer washers,obsolete.
I always wonder how things would have been had P&G not promoted suds as a major importance in laundry washing.I remember many of the Bendix (washers and washer dryer combos),Westinghouse and GEs that neighbors had that did a great job and many of the owners Realy did a fantastic job in upkeep using the correct detergent OR using less than the Tide,Oxydol,Cheer,Wisk,Vim boxes recomended for their washer.The Bairs had a 1954 Westinghouse DeLuxe laundromat and Alice liked Vim.She bought and used it the first time and had lots of oversudsing.She read her Laundrofile and changed her formula by breaking the tabs in half.Not only did the suds become almost non existant but the wash got real clean.After they stopped production(Lever Brothers),she switched to Salvo and used twice as much.She went back to Dash after that.She (God rest her soul)and I both miss Vim and Salvo.The Tide and Wisk tabs weren't anywhere near them in aroma and performance.O.k. I'm off my soap box. LOL
 
Having lived in Australia in the late 1980's/early 1990's I used only TL machines. I imagine their laundry habits are similar to in the US but am sure someone will correct me on that if it isn't the case. Initially I selected warm water but on discovering Cold Power I only used cold. Setting aside the temperature debate totally, my laundry was always spotlessly clean. I didn't develop any skin conditions or allergies and my clothes always smelled fresh and clean. I could not fault the TL machines at all in their performance. Yes, they used a lot of water and I was on a meter but that was the way it was, TL machines were the machine of choice. All the houses and apartment/units I lived in had utility/laundry rooms so the size of the machine was not an issue.

Proir to moving to Australia and since I came back, I have used only FL machines, or h-axis TL machines. They use a fraction of the water and take longer but that is what we are used to in the UK. Similarly, my clothes are spotless, I do not have and skin conditions or allergies and my laundry always smells fresh and clean.

Many of us don't have utility/laundry rooms so the machines sit in our kitchens. I would love the space for a utility room purely because it means I would have room to get a TL machine to play with!!

At the end of the day, I don't recall seeing Australians walking around in dirty smelly clothes nor Americans come to that. Similarly, I don't see people in the UK/Europe wearing dirty smelly clothes.

What I am trying to say is that from my experience, BOTH types of machine work equally well if they are used the correct way and we both have our faves because in general, that is what we are used to, we grew up with and we are comfortable with.

This argument will always rage on and I can only base my opinions on my own experiences. I love 'em both equally!!!
 
Minor Correction Regarding Tide Suds

P&G at first created Tide that did not make much froth, but housewives conditioned by years of equating froth with cleaning power (which is true when one is using pure soap for laundry), stayed away in numbers. Once "detergents" made as much froth as soap, the final holdouts were converted.

Remember when Tide was introduced it's main competition was not other petrol based detergents, but soap.

Even today many housewives and other laundry consumers do not believe laundry detergents without froth are cleaning well. Go into any laundromat and one will find machines so full of froth that the final rinse looks the same as the pre-wash! *LOL*

L.
 
imagine their laundry habits are similar to in the US but a

There are a couple of main differences....

- Our machines don't have bleach dispensers (ok, the majority)
- Our detergents advise AGAINST using LCB...another reason for few machines having dispensers
- The MAJORITY of Australians do the MAJORITY of their washing in cold water
- Almost ALL our detergents are capable of washing well in cold water and some are specifically designed for it (front loader users may buck this...not sure)

....and the only Australians who 'smell' only do so because they don't wash either themselves or their clothes....not because of the water temperature...
 
~What I am trying to say is that from my experience, BOTH types of machine work equally well if they are used the correct way and we both have our faves because in general, that is what we are used to, we grew up with and we are comfortable with.

APPLAUSE!

One simply works around each type's deficiencies.

A gas cooker/stove will alwaye be "home" because that is what everyone (and I do mean EVERYONE, not nearly everyone)) in my city uses. A top-loader brings back memories of my youth, unmetered water service and the attitude of "plenty".

In many cases a front-loader cleans better (stain removal) and surprises many of us who are used to top-loaders in that regard. However for mud, dirt, grease and true filth one can not deny that use of abundant water makes all the difference. For the vast majority of household use, that kind of muck is not an issue a front-loader does very nicely.

I had the honor of doing scores of laundry loads for a guy whose home was flooded and there was mold on every item of clothing. Let's just say without a heater in my front-loader my top-loader came to my rescue.

Both types have their merits and draw-backs!

An intelligent user with a mind towards applied science/physics will work around the mechanicals to achieve the best possible results.
 
In many cases a front-loader cleans better (stain removal) and surprises many of us who are used to top-loaders in that regard. However for mud, dirt, grease and true filth one can not deny that use of abundant water makes all the difference. For the vast majority of household use, that kind of muck is not an issue a front-loader does very nicely.

I recently found a Maytag N2LP wringer, which many here claim is obsolete. It will do a better job at removing ground in dirt and grass stains from socks and jeans than my other machines, including my Zerowatt front loader. I think a lot of this has to do with the amount of detergent I can use, as well as time and the vigorous action of those huge agitator fins. It will pull stuff down remarkably well, while still controlling the amount of suds. Many wringers are being put back into service, and their value has been increasing in recent years. Go figure.

NorfolkSouthern

NorfolkSouthern++9-13-2009-11-44-0.jpg
 
Detergent

One thing that took me a while to get used to using a TL was the amount of detergent one needs to use. I was still using the same amount for a TL as a FL and it was pointed out to me by a housemate that I was using far too little and that was why I was complaining that my formal shirt collars were not coming out clean. Working as a bar attendant I had to wear white formal shirts which used to get filthy dirty and was moaning about the fact that they were ALL stained, even after washing. As soon as I was put right on that score and was using the right amount of detergent things were just fine, even in cold water.

My mother had a Whirlpool TL for a year and while she loved the traditional agitator it took about an hour to fill with water. As with many UK homes, the hot water was gravity fed and painfully slow. As I have a combi boiler then a TL is a very attractive option but don't have the space for it. I had a twin tub for a while and had similar problems gauging the right amount of detergent to use. With so many pre-measured formats such as tablets, gel capsules and strange dispenser caps, free pour detergent is a lost art, much like free pour gin at the local pub!!!!
 
our detergents here for front loaders are HE high efficency, the amount you use is the same as a top loader only it is a low sudsing formula. tide claims u should NOT even use regular tide even if u use a quarter amout of the detergent. could be because our front loaders use so little water. i like the front loaders in the laundromat that fill half way up the door.
 
The reason you must use low sudsing (HE) detergents in a fro

Is because the action is so vigorous that with a high sudsing detergent it would whip up so many suds they'd be gushing out of the top of the machine and all over the floor. The water consumpion of the machine dosen't dictate this, it's the fact the water is being moved through the clothes, rather than the clothes being moved through the water as in a top loader.

If I get told that U.S. front loaders use less water than European machines one more time I swear to God I will go mad lol. It just isn't true. The Zanussi FJS1425W in the house I am currently renting uses 44l (11-12 U.S. gallons) to wash a full 5-6kg (11-13lb) wash load. That is a wash with an "invisible" water level and 3 rinses with "barely visible" water levels. It washes and rinses even the largest, dirtiest and most absorbant loads perfectly every time, providing it is not overloaded, underdosed and a good quality detergent is used. I never have to use the extra rinse option and have never needed to pre-treat, pre-soak, pre-wash or use any additives (except detergent) on anything. Yes the wash cycle takes 2hr8mins, would I have it any other way? Not a chance!

Matt
 
Lets see:

Just for arguments sake we'll say that a typical top loader takes about 30 mins to wash a load of whites. And for a FL, 2 hours. We'll also, for agruments sake, say a typical family of 4 washes about 10 loads a week.
For the TL that means the machine is running for about 5 hours per week.
And the FL: 20 hours per week.
For one year the TL has run about 260 hours
And the FL: 1040 hours

Which machine do you think will, in general, last the longest ?

Now a white work shirt:
Which work shirt do you think will last the longest?
The one washed every week in the TL that is agitated in hot water and detergent for 30 mins (rinses included of course) or,
the one in the FL that is agitated (tumbled) for 2 hours in hot water and detergent?

In one year that white shirt was washed for:
26 hours in the TL or,
104 hours in the FL

For me the numbers speak for themselves.
 
Yes, but

In a front loader the clothes are merely lifted and dropped, in a top loader they are thrashed around by the agitator blades.

It's obvious that a top loader causes more wear on clothes than a front loader by the amount of lint they create, compared to a front loader creating merely negligable amounts.

Having seen how a modern Maytag toploader left my friend's cottons tshirts and jumpers bobbled, stretched and with small holes in them, despite being loaded correctly (if anything underloaded) and a lot of them being washed in wash bags. This is after about 3 months usage. I can certainly say of all the clothes I own which are similar and in some cases the same items, are bobble and hole free after, in some cases years or front loader washing. Have never had anything stretched either, this is also without using wash bags.

So sorry but I cannot accept that a top loader is more gentle on clothes than a top loader.

Matt
 
I cannot accept that a top loader is more gentle on clothes

I meant to say

"sorry, but I cannot accept that a top loader is more gentle than a front loader"

Matt
 
why that answer is easy,

The one that will last the longest is the one built with better quality materials.

It makes no odds to cycle times whatsoever the longevity of a machine.
Nor can one generalise so much,

Thats like saying bicicles will travel you for a greater distance than a pair of rollerskates.

Whats to say the rollerskates in question were TOL proffessional ones and you were comparing it to riding a plastic childs tricycle.

There are plenty of plastic TL's that would seemingly not be able to do more than a couple of washes a week for 1 year yet Asko machines etc do 2 or three loads a week for 20 to 30 years.
 
I'll weigh in on this

I've used both top and front load machines...my mother has owned both...

Firstly,

Generally speaking a top load machine 'lightly loaded' and using a high water level will wash gently without EXCESSIVE pilling, linting or wear.

However.....

Generally speaking, a front load machine will wash at capacity with much less water, more gently, negligible pilling and next to no linting or wear on clothing...

The 22yr old (yep...22!) pair of chinos, 14yr old sheridan towels (which are now getting thin having been tumble dried so much, but have no pulls) and several rugby tops that are also over 12yrs are testament to this.

On the work shirt issue, I wear the same 5 shirts to work every week and replace maybe 1-2 a year....this year I threw out a pale blue one where the collar had started to go with wear....it was 5yrs old and only cost me about $15....not bad for a cheap 'made in china ' shirt that has been washed and ironed well over 200 times.

Time and time again, our consumer magazine has shown that front load machines cause less wear and tear on clothes despite the fact that 'normal' cycles can, depending on the machine, run for up to 2:30
 

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