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in the B-17

yeah,was kinda cramped in certain areas of the B17-cockpit area was about the size of a mid-30s chevy or ford car as i recall.One thing cool about the "sentimental journey"was the plane was mostly all ww2 era "period correct"-though some instruments were modern,most were original type with yellowish phosphor painted markings to glow under UV light.Original ww2 electronics and radios were in place too.When i toured the B17 in 1998 on the ground,i visited all the positions except the belly turret-that was off limits-crawled back to the tail gunner position too :)
 
BAC 1-11

I believe a company that does aviation videos says there are still 1 or 2 in South Africa (Not Nigeria) that may still fly. I don't know the age of the video.

I did read on Wikipedia that the Nigerians banned the planes. Yeh, my old dishwasher caught fire, so lets ban all old appliances(!) {And I know, that would really p*ss off the peopl here...)

A while back I did get an advertisement for the L-1011. I don't believe I kept it (National Geographic Mag from Art Class, 1980's vintage!)
Apparently, the engines were further from the cabin, the A/C vented Fresh-Air very frequently, it had wider seats and all sorts of crazy stuff. I might look for it and upload it here, if anyone is interested.
 
The stuffier cabins began with the 757 & 767.
A 727 or DC9 would refresh the cabin air once every 8 or 9 minutes or so. With the 757 and 767 the cabin air gets refreshed about once every 60-90 minutes.

Why is this?
Boeing decided to install "bio filters" to "clean up" the cabin air and reintroduce it to the cabin. Now how well these work is a matter of conjecture. A lot of it depends on how often the airline is willing to change these filters.

The fresh air/recirculated air is determined by the pilot to a degree. But the concern is that the more fresh air that is entered into the cabin your fuel burn rate goes up. And airlines now a days watch each aircraft to see how much fuel is used for each flight. So if you are introducing a lot of fresh air into the cabin
regularly soon you will be talking to the chief pilot about why you are using so much more fuel than others.

I'm willing to bet that if Lockheed had made the L-1011 easier to stretch or create new configurations we'd still see newer models in service. But unlike the DC-10 where McDonald Douglas made the plane easy to stretch from the beginning, Lockheed had more of a "one plane, one wing" type of design which made it harder to stretch without redesigning the wing.

It has been 40 years since the L-1011 was introduced, so it's be an older plane by now. Heck, if you look at the DC-10 most airlines that still use it are air freight companies.

Cabin Air Filter info:

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www.purolator-facet.com
 
Actually...

DC-10's in actual use... Sorry, no! They fly very rarely with anyone other than FedEx, although 1-2 airlines still use them (Biman Bangladesh)

You are acutally thinking of the MD-11, winglets, shorter tailplane and such. Only KLM operates the type in passenger service.

Fed-Ex operates MD-10s, DC-10s with an upgraded flight deck for commonality, so perhaps that is what you mistook it for.

I hate to be the correction nanny, but, yeah!
 
fascinating to watch and very effective...

...California uses the DC-10 as a fire-fighting tool. It's amazing to watch this huge airplane maneuver in ways it was probably never intended to. Kudos to the skilled pilots too.

twintubdexter++11-14-2012-13-33-59.jpg
 
Current DC-10 operators, and thoughts on the L-1011

Other than FedEx, which at some times during weekdays can have nearly 20 airborne at one time, the only other DC-10 operator that I've noticed on FlightAware is an operator in Canada (Kelowna Flightcraft) that uses four or more aircraft for Purolator and other freight services.

The last passenger operator that I would see even semi-regularly was Omni International, which had three or four aircraft, then bought about that many more from Northwest/ATA, which were the final built DC-10s, or the youngest in the world. These were used well into 2011. Seemed like they'd have at least the newly acquired ATA/NW aircraft a while, and I saw them on a number of military charters crossing the Atlantic, but they didn't seem to stay long, after Omni acquired a few Triples. Suddenly I didn't see the 10s any longer. They are showing as 'stored' now on PlaneSpotters.net.

There were a few freight operators out of Miami, but I haven't seen any activity with them recently. There is a DC-10 tanker which is based in So Cal, and a the DC-10 water bomber, but FedEx and Kelowna seem like it for airline activity. I'd say between Opa Locka, Mojave, Victorville, Marana and Roswell, the majority of the existing DC-10s are parked up.

On the L-1011, something tells me that in the later 1970s a twin engine version of this aircraft was proposed to airlines, as was a twin DC-10, both in response to the A300 I believe. I've read many times that Lockheed's continuance with just Rolls and the RB211 as their powerplant was the primary reason for the L-1011's lack of better sales success, and thus future derivatives. This due to two factors: early engineering difficulties and to Rolls' financial difficulties which cost Lockheed some initial orders to McD, AND later to lack of engineering toward other engine manufacturers when airlines wanted to use the CF6 or JT9D for commonality reasons. McD and surely Boeing were successful in installing the other wideobody engines into their aircraft (the JT9D on the DC-10 got McD the Northwest and JAL business) and the 747 had multiple customers for GE and Rolls powered aircraft). Lockheed never did the same.
 
I absolutely loved ~

The Whisper Jet and I would rush around from gate to gate pressing my face against the windows oogling and craning my neck every time I flew back and forth from Buffalo to Cleveland, hoping that my flight would have one. I lucked out so many times, Eastern, I think.

 

Today such exuberance might not be appreciated.
smiley-laughing.gif


 

You couldn't miss a Whisper Jet: there was a full sized engine built into an enormous tail fin which extended way up into the air; it was dazzling, and take-off was an incredible rush and roar. Not jet every gave me such a thrill as the Whisper Jet. Gosh how I wish I could fly one today.

[this post was last edited: 11/14/2012-18:02]
 
Article in today's Wall Street Journal:

ATLANTA—A jetliner parked in a cavernous hangar here boasts a gleaming paint job, 160 pristine blue leather seats and a new-airplane smell. But this latest addition to the Delta Air Lines Inc. fleet isn't new.

Not by a long shot. The twin-engine MD-90, acquired from China Southern Airlines Co. is more than 13 years old. It is one of 49 used McDonnell Douglas MD-90s Delta is rehabbing after scooping them up from global airlines that were thrilled to get rid of a plane that no longer is built by a manufacturer that long ago was taken over by Boeing Co.

Most large carriers prefer fuel-sipping new planes with the latest high-tech gadgetry. But Delta, which has one of the oldest fleets in the U.S., is making a habit of succeeding by zigging when its rivals zag.

*************

Besides the MD-90s, Delta is picking up the leases on 88 Boeing 717s with an average age of 11 years from Southwest Airlines Co. The discount king was so eager to shed the leases it inherited in its purchase of AirTran Airways that it took a $137 million charge to retrofit them for Delta. Yet even with the planes' higher fuel and maintenance costs, Delta figures it is saving at least $1 billion on the MD-90 purchases, compared with buying new planes, making them roughly 10% cheaper to operate per seat than new 737s. It won't say how much the 717s are saving, but its fleet strategy executive said he is "thrilled about the deal we got."

*************

Today, Delta's fleet is both old and complex. It has 10 different models in its 725-aircraft mainline fleet, and the fleet's average age was 16.6 years at the end of September. The last of its 19 DC-9s, which came from Northwest, clock in at more than 34 years old, and are expected to be put out to pasture in the next year or two.

This compares with an average fleet age of about 12 years for United Continental and US Airways. Southwest's fleet is 11-years-old on average while JetBlue Airways Corp.'s planes are six years old. American Airlines has a 15-year-old fleet, but the company recently ordered 460 new aircraft.

*************

The used-plane strategy even helped Delta win over its 12,000 pilots, its only major unionized group, to a new labor agreement reached over the summer. The 110-seat ex-Southwest 717s will be flown by Delta pilots, not aviators at regional carriers that fly on Delta's behalf, meaning more jobs and upward mobility for the Delta cockpit crews. This will clear the way for Delta to save money by culling the number of money-losing 50-seat regional jets that its commuter partners now fly and letting the 717s fill much of that need. "Both sides saw the advantage of not doing things the old way," said Buzz Hazzard, a spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association.

At the heart of Delta's older fleet strategy is its 2.7 million-square-foot complex of maintenance hangars and shops at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport, part of a unit that employs 10,000 people across the country. Delta TechOps, as the unit is called, can repair engines, paint aircraft, modify airplanes and overhaul landing gear. Last year, the profitable unit racked up $650 million in revenue, up from $25 million in 1995. Clients include the U.S. military, aircraft leasing companies and domestic and overseas carriers.

With its mechanics having 19 years of experience on average, Delta believes it has the built-in expertise to cosset its older birds. Doug Worley, a 23-year Delta mechanic in Atlanta, works on all variety of the carrier's domestic aircraft. The McDonnell Douglas planes like the DC-9s and MD-90s are "workhorses," he says. "They're pretty reliable."

*******************

Delta isn't blind to the attractions of new aircraft, of course. Last year, it ordered 100 new Boeing 737-900s to replace older planes that will be retired. But it didn't take the newest version, which Boeing expects to roll out in 2017 with more efficient engines.

Instead, Delta bought from the end of the current production cycle, getting a better price. "It's just math," said Nat Pieper, Delta's vice president of fleet strategy and a veteran of Northwest. "Our fleet strategy is one of opportunism."
 
When the MD-90 first came out it was kind of a nightmare as far as maintenance went. At first it had a pretty low on-time dispatch rate. It was far more complex than the MD-80's were and it took some time to get the bugs worked out of them.

But once they figured out how to work on it and maintain it, it became a very reliable aircraft. Plus Delta go them for next to nothing. Planes that are paid off early make money for an airline. That's why Northwest had the DC9 for so long, because they were paid off and still had life left. Properly maintained an aircraft can fly for 30-35 years. Remember the engines get changed out every couple of years and are maintained on a regular basis.

Funny thing is that Northwest never flew the DC-9 until it bought Republic Airways.
When they acquired Republic that's when they got a boatload of DC-9's from North Central, Southern and Hughes Airwest. I've probably flown most of the NC planes at one time or another.

Only recently did the original DC-9's find their way to the desert for retirement.
 
I never realised airplanes had their engines CHANGED every few years. I just thought they kept rebuilding/fixing them! Well, was I wrong!
Where do they keep the engines, especially for types like the DC-9 where the original JT8D's are (from what I know) no longer produced.

Its no surprise to me that Delta is keeping their older MD-80s and such. Apparently, they may acquire the ex-TWA MD-80s owned by AA as they are retired, to replace the oldest variants in Delta's fleet.
Why purchase hundreds of new aircraft, costing the airline MILLIONS when you can "recycle," get something of similar capacity and capability that has been proven in service?

Perhaps Boeing should re-make the 757 (with a 737 common flight-deck or components, perhaps?), as there are that many airlines that are going to need to replace their own 757's during the upcoming years. From what I've read, the 737-900 is still around 19 passengers short in either 2-class or single class configuration to be an exact, pound for pound replacement.
 
Allen -

Did NW (or Republic) keep aircraft contained to their original divisions after the mergers of the Southern, NC and Hughes, such that the Hughes planes were mostly used out west, etc? Recently I've heard a lot about the current US Airways, which as we know is a combination of US Air and America West. Apparently there is still a western fleet, and a western operation, which is not fully integrated with the old US Air operation on the east coast, at least in terms of employees, aircraft, crews, and scheduling. It seems like two subsidiaries operating under one publically appearing umbrella. Your comment about flying the NC DC-9s made me wonder about the Hughes fleet. Same for the Hughes/Republic 727s mixing with the NW 72s.

Northwest was indeed late to the DC-9 party, but they must have really liked them because even after the Republic merger, NW bought DC-9s, many dozens I believe, from airlines such as Eastern (or their receivers), SAS, TDA, and maybe others.

Gordon
 
Washer111 -

I had no idea Delta was interested in some of AA's MD80s, if that is true it's pretty cool. TWA got the last of the MD80s produced, but they were MD-83s not the MD-88s that Delta has (glass cockpit differences). Seeing that many active DC-9s are 40+ years old and the MD80 is supposedly just as robust, the TWA/AA recent aircraft are relative babies. If AA is smart they'll sell the TWA craft if they can and keep their older ones instead of dumping their old ones first. I didn't think any of AA's MD80s had much market value.

As far as engine changes, large airlines keep inventories of spare engines, or have access to companies which have them like other spare parts. Smaller companies use outside contractors to get this needed support. Engines are often leased separate from the airframe, and can be leased even on an hourly usage basis. 'On-wing' time and TBO (time between overhaul) are statistics measured on most active engines and help determine its value. Traceable maintenance history is also a huge factor. When an engine is removed for whatever reason, it will often be repaired or overhauled, and returned to active service or inventory, most likely on another aircraft.

Recently, as in sometime in 2011, the JT8D production line was re-activated for a batch of 200-series engines going to the U.S. Military for 707 re-engining. It had been some time since Pratt built a JT8D. They, as all major jet engines, are tracked by serial number, and saleable based on condition and documentation. There are websites devoted to the sale of engines and spares for them. Often a complete aircraft's value is mostly in its engines.
 
IIRC, the P&W JT8D's are pre high-bypass-ratio and though very reliable and generate a lot of thrust for their size, they are incredibly loud. I was wondering if re-fitting HBR engines to a 727 proved to be impossible.
 
Rinso -

JT8Ds have a very unique sound, one which I miss at airports. Yes, they are loud, but no more than other engines of their time.

Two engines have been retro-fitted to the 727 other than the basic OEM JT8D. "Super 27s" were created when the JT8D 200 series (more bypass and larger fans) were added to positions one and three, however the center engine remains OEM because of the limitations/cost/difficulties with modifying the aft fuselage structure to fit the wider fan JT8D-200 series.

A much more aggressive modification was done when RR Tay engines were added in all three installations. This involved new center ducts, considerable fuselage modifications, etc due to the engine's diameter and overall size. These are not high-bypass engines either. This was done mostly for UPS, but one executive 727-100 was converted as well. This conversion wasn't done all that long ago (mid-90s) and I think UPS intended a long life from these aircraft, but they have all long ago been withdrawn and out of service. I don't know for sure why. Just the private aircraft is flying that I know of.

A true hi-bypass engine would be difficult if not impossible to install, at least in the center.
 
Thw P&W JT8D engine was used in a wide variety of aircraft:

DC-9, MD-80, 727/100/200 series, 737-100/200 series, DC-8 61/62 series and even the SUD Carvelle used them! Needless to say this engine has been developed to it's full extent.

I would have loved to have flown the "Super 27", but I don't think more than a handfull were made.
 
Interesting how there's so much reverence for particular aircraft, and even moreso for their engines.

The Pratt & Whitney JT8D never would have seen the light of day had the military (aka taxpayers) not paid for the R&D. Specifically, the P&W J-52, which powered the Navy A-6 (very successfully, btw).

Not to pull anyone's chain but a lot of intelligent people (aeronautical engineers and machinists building them) labeled the Douglas DC-9 as the "Long Beach Death Tube" 40 plus years ago.

That was mostly because of the supercritical wing design, where if the laminar flow over the wing was lost or if any one of the several aerodynamic aids failed, the plane would be lost.

And sure enough, there are plenty of examples of crashes over the years due to inadequate de-icing, crews failing to set flaps and slats correctly, and so on.

Yet the DC-9 became the MD-80, MD-81 MD-83 and Boeing 717.

In defense of the DC-9 design, it's clear that the DC-10 was inferior.

Search youtube for video of the Japanese crew that did a hard landing and broke the wings of their DC-10...I think a FedEx crew also did that to a freighter version of the DC-10, if I remember correctly.
 
Well, after over 5,400+ hours in the DC-9, I'm still here. And never bent an airplane yet.

I actually liked the DC-9. It's the aircraft that brought jet service to small towns that previously only had prop service. Flown within it's limits, it's a very safe aircraft.

A lot of the incidents involving DC-9's are pilot errors. I can't think of one incident involving a DC-9 & icing. And I flew the 9' in some of the worst winter conditions possible. Maybe there were a few incidents, but I never had a problem with it. If there is ice on the wings when you walk out to the aircraft, call for deicing, simple as that. Now Delta rolled a 727 off of a runway at DFW.

The crew was too busy talking with a flight attendant and missed the flap setting
check on the pre takeoff checklist.
 

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