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Allen, stories like the one about the Delta 727 in your thread directly above are what give me second thoughts about flying.

 

I'm glad most of my flying lately is between two points that don't have issues with ice.
 
Ice can happen anywhere, even on a 80F day up at altitude. The deicing systems on jet aircraft is very efficient. You just need to learn that when the weather conditions are conductive to icing you need to be on the lookout for it.

I have heard that the MD-11 can be squierrley when landing due to it's larger tail than the DC-10 could he. The MD-11 FedEx crash was found to be strong crosswind gusts that caused the accident. But I have never flown a MD-11 so all I get is from people I know that work for FedEx.

And for those who are afraid to fly remember that the trip from your home to the airport is most likely the most dangerous part of your trip.
 
@whirlcool:

Flight crews like yours are what makes the industry safe.

But...not everyone that manages revenue flights has your skillset.

To wit:

Northwest Airlines Flight 255, which ended badly just after takeoff from Detroit Metro, 1987.

Lots more accidents on landing, like Delta 723, Eastern 212 and such.

Plenty more where those came from...
 
@whirlcool:

"And for those who are afraid to fly remember that the trip from your home to the airport is most likely the most dangerous part of your trip.

Yep.

Don't know where you live, but we call the kids that have superbikes and wear shorts and flip-flops without a helmet, SQUIDS.

SQUID = Super Quick Until I'm Dead. Which is what happens with disturbing regularity.
 
I didn't like flying in the DC9's in the 80's and 90's because I often wound up in the rear of the plane, where the noise and vibration from the tail mounted engine pods would be deafening.

I remember flying on inter-island hops in Hawaii in the mid-80's. One time the walls of the planes would flex so much on takeoff and leveling off that they actually pinched my hands between the window seat arm rest and the outer wall of the plane. A few years later an Aloha Airlines 737 suffered metal failure, lost half its roof, and also lost a FA who got sucked out to her death over the ocean at altitude. When I heard about that accident the flexing of the jet walls on previous flights instantly came to mind.
 
"A few years later an Aloha Airlines 737 suffered metal failure, lost half its roof"

As I mentioned above in reply number 7, for the number of hours flown these aircraft often have a very high number of cycles. The nineteen year old aircraft in question is said to have accumulated 89,090 cycles by the time of this incident, resulting in metal fatigue that led to a number of shockingly long cracks along the lap joints that join the fuselage skin panels together. Rather large(and unattractive)scab patches were devised to address the problem and retrofitted to high cycle aircraft.

Since there seem to be some commercial pilots chiming in here, I'm wondering how many cycles an airline will put on an airframe before they say enough and send it off to the bone yard?

d-jones++11-17-2012-02-51-14.jpg
 
"And for those who are afraid to fly remember that the trip from your home to the airport is most likely the most dangerous part of your trip."

This is so true. I have flown hundreds of thousands of miles for my past jobs, and even some of the worst flights I experienced didn't frighten me as much as my own driving did. I suck at driving, but I'm really good at being an airline passenger. ;o)
 
Aircraft and cycles on them

How many cycles an aircraft accumulates depends on how an airline operates it, but most aircraft have a design limit for total hours and total cycles. These limits are very different depending on the service environment the airplane was designed for. Enforcement regarding restrictions when aircraft approach these limits is more up the the FAA or a country's regulatory agency than it is up to the airlines. Some airlines however are fussier about that than others. Some airlines will purchase an aircraft which is approaching its limits, or approaching a major check, just because they're cheaper, and may simply scrap the plane when it passes the threshold, or evaluate its worth at that time in regard to paying for a major overhaul or check. Orient Thai Airlines does this in fact with many or most of its purchases.

There have also been many limit extension programs for aircraft, and some have gone beyond factory spec when inspections determined the structure was still sound when at these limits.

DC-9s and 737s, for example, are meant for high cycle service environments, where flights are often 1-hour or much less. As these aircraft age is not uncommon at all for them to have more cycles on them than flight hours. The Aloha Airlines 737-200 which back in 1988 had 89,000 cycles was an extreme example, but it had something like only 30,000 hours (I am quoting that from memory).

727s often have had between 60k and 80k hours, and 40k cycles, where these aircraft flew longer stage lengths, on average.

747s, DC-10-30s, etc have frequently approached 100k hours, but had 20k cycles or less, due to their very long flight sectors. Northwest had a DC-10-30 with over 130,000 hours at retirement, and it was still airworthy. (People who say the DC-10 is not a sturdy or quality built aircraft are incorrect). A tiny little new airline, Air Baltia or something like that, wants to start flying with a former NW 747-200 which has over 105,000 hours as well. These aircraft are not built for the rigorous cycle accumulations like the 737 and DC-9 were, although there were domestic models of both the 747 and the DC-10.

Some airlines are much better, or more purposely, use-up an aircraft's cycles or hourly limits than others. In the mid 1990s, when a large number of original 727-200s were retired by United, Continental, and Northwest, most all these planes had been built in the 1968-1970 time frame. United's planes all had around 65k hours, whereas Continental's had approached 80k often. This is because throughout the life of the planes at CO, that airline utilized their planes, more, every day, than United did, as a management decision. Today, a similar scene would be encountered when comparing a somewhat recently retired legacy United 737-300 vs. a Southwest Airlines 737-300, especially in cycles accumulation.

So, in a nutshell, hours and cycles depend on the type of plane, and the owner/operators it had in its lifetime.
 
727 production #s

looking in a book on airliner jets,showed that boeing celebrated the completion of the 1000th 727 on nov.29,1973! book,from the early '80s, does not say when 727 production stopped or how many 727s were made during the production run of 727s.Also i seen mentioned the L1011 tristar had a unique beacon with two close-coupled rotating lights giving it a distinctive look at night.
 
cfz--

727 production ended in late 1984, with 1,832 planes. The last 15 production aircraft were built as freighters for FedEx. Some of these still fly with them, others have recently been sold-off.

The 1,000th 727 was built for Delta, the info. you saw probably mentioned that. Doesn't seem to be much out there on that particular aircraft, but quite a few survive today from that era.

Below is a link to a cool site by a guy who worked for Boeing for many years, and is hoping to restore the #1 727 to airworthy status so it can join the other Boeings at the Museum of Flight. This gentleman has some great videos on youtube of the #1 737 as well.

 
Thats a RyanAir plane in Reply #84.
Their 737-200's were altitude restricted in the end, due to super-high cycle numbers, and were apparently patched more than an old bike tire. I believe the aircraft affected included the Hertz logo jet and one or two others. From what I've read, I'm pretty sure that a DC-9 can survive over 150K cycles, with modifications to the pressure bulkhead.

Also, in regards to Delta and the MD-80s, its only a rumor I've read. However, it would (apparently) be likely for them to retrofit the cockpits and upgrade to MD-88 standard. Some SAS models would apparently be used simply as spare parts (surprisingly), if they were bought.

Also, I believe the DC-9 was actually built for more cycles than the 737. That Aloha Airlines aircraft was basically on its limit, or over, if my memory of Wikipedia is correct.
I do know Northwest's DC9-10's were basically at their max at retirement (With the -10 series being the favourite for rural "Round-Robin" runs)
 
Northwest Airlines Flight 255, which ended badly just after takeoff from Detroit Metro, 1987.

What happened in this incident is that earlier in the day the flap configuration warning horn had been going off on it's own for no valid reason. So the pilot pulled the circuit breaker to stop this from happening.

Also the captain was a low time MD80 pilot originally from NW. The first officer was from Republic Airlines. The MD80 was a new airplane to NW as they acquired this MD80 from Republic. For some reason or another they forgot to put the flaps down and when takeoff power was applied the takeoff configuration warning horn didn't go off like it should have because the circuit breaker was pulled.

Now normally this would have been ok if someone had placarded the panel that the circuit breaker was pulled, but nobody did.

Now an MD-80 can take off without flaps, but your Vspeeds wil be much higher and require a higher power setting than taking off with flaps. So since the flaps weren't deployed the aircraft lifted off below stall speen due to the no flap condition. Once the aircraft left ground effect it stalled and crashed.

Another interesting note was that NW only received 4 MD-80s from Republic. So that was a total number in of them in the entire NW fleet. Soon after the accident NW disposed of the other MD-80's. It's very expensive to maintain a small subfleet of aircraft like that.

That's a good photo of the fuselage showing all the patches & doublers as they are called to correct any weak spots in the fuselage. I remember flying in a Southwest 727-200 that when you got up close to it had patches and doublers all over the fuselage. As aircraft age and during the major inspections the paint is removed so the mechanics can see the areas that need attention. After the plane is finished with a major maintenance check it's repainted again.
 
I guess I missed the mention of the C-5 sounding different in the future.  The flight path to Moffet Field isn't that far from us and the distinctive sound of the C-5 is quite familiar, though the military traffic into Moffet is only a tiny fraction of what it used to be since Moffet transitioned from Naval Air Station to Federal Airfield. 

 

Moffet was the base for the P-3 Orion submarine chasers for decades.  I enjoyed the sound of the P-3's as they continued to operate long after their commercial counterpart, the Electra, had been phased out by passenger airlines.  There are rows and rows of decommissioned P-3's parked in Tucson now. 

 

The C-130's (or whatever their suffix is these days) also have a distinctive sound to them.  Several times this past year we've been buzzed by such planes doing touch-and-go runs at SJC.  They were on the tight approach that normally small private aircraft use, and were low enough to make the cat consider running for cover, until she noticed that Dave and I weren't doing likewise, but instead were marveling at the close-up view.
 
too bad I didn't know Ralph way, way, way back then...

How well I remember those P-3 Orion sub hunters while growing up in the Santa Clara Valley. I doubt they found many submarines in the rapidly disappearing apricot and prune orchards they seemed to be cruising over. I remember too when Moffet Field was a busy place. I understand they determined that chemicals in the paint covering the huge Hanger One at Moffet were polluting the bay. The panels covering the hanger have been removed leaving only the frame. It must look very strange. Do you remember that gigantic rotating radar antenna at the top of Mt. Umunhum. That thing moved pretty fast. An elderly neighbor said she was sure it caused earthquakes.

the antenna made at least one phone book cover

twintubdexter++11-18-2012-16-39-45.jpg
 
Oh yeah, everybody knew the radar dish.  The giant box it sat atop is still there, and since the open space district recently purchased the property, there has been a heated debate on whether to demolish it or save it, the argument for saving it being that it has historical -- if definitely not architectural -- significance.

 

Interesting that you provided that phone book cover picture.  I used to have a 1967 book with an airport shot on the cover that included a brand new Pacific Airlines 727, a PSA Super Electra, an SFO Helicopter and the tiny Holiday Airlines plane I mentioned further up.

 

Hangar One at Moffet Field is in a similar situation to that of the radar tower.  The Navy paid to have the toxic (PCB's and asbestos) skin removed, but funds haven't been secured to re-skin it, so currently it's just a skeleton.  The longer it stays that way, the more difficult and expensive restoration efforts become.  Google has proposed to re-skin the hangar in exchange for using part of it for their corporate aircraft, but they've received no response.  A western Smithsonian has also been suggested. 

 

It has been stated that Hangar One is so large that it has its own climate zone inside.  I've been in it a couple of times and it's difficult to convey its size through photos.  I've attached a picture here with a large NASA plane next to the hangar (skin still on) for scale.

rp2813++11-18-2012-18-20-57.jpg
 
Hangar One's Initial Purpose

Parking garage for the USS Macon.  This is a shot of the Macon pulling out of Hangar One in 1933.  You can sort of get a feel for the Macon's size if you can make out the ant-like people on the ground below it.

 

The Macon went down off the Monterey coast in bad weather not long after this shot was taken.  Its sister ship, The Akron, met a similar fate off the New Jersey coast, and the Navy's airship program went down with them.

 

 

rp2813++11-18-2012-18-31-58.jpg
 
@whirlcool:

"Northwest Airlines Flight 255, which ended badly just after takeoff from Detroit Metro, 1987.

What happened in this incident is that earlier in the day the flap configuration warning horn had been going off on it's own for no valid reason. So the pilot pulled the circuit breaker to stop this from happening.

Also the captain was a low time MD80 pilot originally from NW. The first officer was from Republic Airlines. The MD80 was a new airplane to NW as they acquired this MD80 from Republic. For some reason or another they forgot to put the flaps down and when takeoff power was applied the takeoff configuration warning horn didn't go off like it should have because the circuit breaker was pulled.

Now normally this would have been ok if someone had placarded the panel that the circuit breaker was pulled, but nobody did.

Now an MD-80 can take off without flaps, but your Vspeeds wil be much higher and require a higher power setting than taking off with flaps. So since the flaps weren't deployed the aircraft lifted off below stall speen due to the no flap condition. Once the aircraft left ground effect it stalled and crashed.

Another interesting note was that NW only received 4 MD-80s from Republic. So that was a total number in of them in the entire NW fleet. Soon after the accident NW disposed of the other MD-80's. It's very expensive to maintain a small subfleet of aircraft like that. "

At the end of the day, that crash was due to a crew that defeated useful safety systems and didn't have their heads screwed on straight. It took an intentional action to pull a circuit breaker that was located behind and to the left of the Captain's seat.

I learned to fly from an former military pilot. Even with a simple Cessna, he expected me to check the "killer items" upon turning onto the runway - fuel, flaps and trim.

Why that crew didn't have that kind of thinking welded into their brains, I don't know. But a lot of people paid the price.
 
The pilot did intentionally pull the breaker and ever wrote it up in the aircraft maintenance log. But the flap configuration horn in not on the MEL list (Minimum Equipment List) so off they went. Clearly pilot error. What I wanted to know is why the F/O didn't remind the captain of the lack of flaps?

I was with Northwest at the time. They had a lot of "Sky God's" working for them.
Maybe the Captain of 255 was one of those? They can make life miserable for a F/O as they come off pretty pompous sometimes.

There was a LOT of animosity between the original NW people vs the Republic people.
This happened at all levels. And it went on for years! But you should have seen them sweat when we merged with Delta. They were expecting the same treatment from Delta employees that they gave the Republic employees. But in this case it was a different story. Delta was very nice while integrating the Northwest people into it's fold. But we did have a few former people from NW that couldn't adapt.
 

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