fave passenger jets

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support AutomaticWasher.org:

Whirlcool, thanks for the info. The 40 degree flap thing on 727's must be what Bill Gunston meant in his book, "The Encyclopedia of Commercial Aircraft. Here's what he wrote:
"In the first years of operation, the 727 suffered a series of often fatal accidents, but it was soon clear these were in almost all cases due to laxity in letting the airspeed bleed off too much on the approach, resulting in a lethal sink rate that could not be arrested by full power. Once pilots learned to fly more precisely 'by the book' this kind of landing was eliminated."
I have to admit that I'm not aviation savvy enough to completely understand what this is saying.
 
What he is talking about is letting the airspeed get too low and when you get near the edge of a stall you can have a high sink rate. This is different than the flap setting problem and can happen in any aircraft.

Like I said, the 727 is a pilot's airplane. It will do almost anything you ask of it, but it won't put up with being flown improperly. Vspeeds are very important when flying jet aircraft. That's what is meant by "flying by the numbers". You have definite lift off speeds, approach speeds, turbulence entry speeds, etc. Ignore those and you can quickly have trouble on your hands.

I think the early problem with the 727 was that the plane came out(1964) at a time when airlines were getting rid of the last of their prop planes and training those crews to fly the 727. Jets are "much slicker" than prop planes and that combined with more critical airspeeds makes training a rather steep learning curve.
You ALWAYS have to have your head ahead of the airplane (and an eye on the airspeed indicator) and anticipate what is going to happen next where this wasn't as critical in prop planes. One of the factors in the 1960 crash in New York where a United DC-8 and a Constellation collided midair was that the DC-8 captain let the aircraft get ahead of him and he was traveling too fast for that part of his approach.

By the time I got to the 727(1976) I had already had three years experience in the DC-9 so that helped. But I spent 8 years in the 727 and it took about a year in the right seat before I felt totally comfortable with her. And the swept wing design combined with the T-tail called for some different flying techniques than some transitioning pilots were used to.

Flown "by the book" the 727 was one of the most rugged aircraft I have ever flown.
 
And talking about the Convair aircraft. That's what I started out in with North Central airlines. NC developed the Convair 580 and the first conversion from 340 to 580 was in 1966. I started with NC in 1973.

The Convair was a rugged aircraft that performed well in the nasty northern winter weather of the upper midwest. It was very stable on windy approaches. A pretty easy airplane to fly. Airlines loved it. Most airlines in the US at one time or another flew the CV-240, 340, 440. NC bought theirs used from Continental and Delta. One unique thing about the Convair props was that you needed to stock a lot fewer parts at the maintenance bases because all the parts that go on the right side of the aircraft also fit the left side of the aircraft. This resulted in less floor space needed for parts, less money invested in spare parts, etc.

The Convair was also a very rugged aircraft. We suspected it was built to military standards due to Convair's long association with the military. It's too bad that Convair couldn't make a profitable jet aircraft for commercial use.

For those of you who are interested in pilots stories about flying the Convair at North Central here is a link to the NC historical website.

http://www.hermantheduck.org/pages/ story pages/stories.html
 
Wow, what a fun thread! B727 for me all the way, if not the 707 or DC-8. I like the vintage stuff to be sure, and am not a fan of Airbus products. I remember the time well when I was dissappointed to fly on a 727-200 as I'd been on so many. Wow how things change!

Whirlcool -

THANKS so very much for your very interesting comments. Although washers have been a lifetime hobby of mine, commercial aviation has been since the third grade, and I would struggle to estimate which one I've invested more thought time in overall.

From an airliner enthusiast's perspective (I even set up my e-mail years ago as B727nut), I have been fortunate to live near some interesting airliner operations. Growing up in Denver, from 1977 to 1983, we had Frontier Airlines with their 30-plus fleet of Convair 580s which my Dad flew on almost weekly. I was also able to witness the withdrawl of United's DC-8-20s in 1978, or many of them, and the storage of the bird which a few years later became the first Orbis flying eye hospital. I also saw many new arrival 727-200 advanced aircraft for United 1978-1980 and I remmeber well how polished and shiny the thrust reversers were as compared to those of their earlier 1960s built aircraft.

We also had Ports of Call Denver, which flew a fleet of five Convair 990s, which were almost nowhere to be found in the U.S. except Nomads' single aircraft or the NASA plane. These flew over my high-school on climb out numerous times and I'll not forget their sound (or smoke trail). Later they bought a fleet of 707s from American, which was exciting for me as well, vs. them ending up as KC-135E parts donors.

Today in Charlotte we have perhaps one of the most uninteresting aviation environments around, at least as compared to the above, although there was some fun spotting times when Piedmont was accumulating 727s from all over the world and making very productive use of other airline's cast offs. As an exception, today we have the A320 which landed in the Hudson on display at a museum, AND we have Roush Air, LLC, for as long as they continue, with two vintage 727-200s. I go out to the airport from time to time just to look at them, as they park on the side of the old terminal. A short term goal is to get a tour of one or both those aircraft. Their 1979 built 212 series buzzes my office from time to time on departure, which is awesome to see mixed with Airbi and too much homogeneous US Airways stuff. I am beginning to be happy to see a 733 in here and especially a Delta DC-9-51 on occasion. I was able to see one of their DC-9-40s about two years ago on one of its last days of operation (sad day).

I enjoy restoring old machines, especially things destined otherwise for the junk pile. I've done it with washers and cars, but not yet a 727. That may be something that goes unrealized, LOL as I can't put one in my garage or back yard, but there is a Roush 721 almost abandoned here which would love some loving attention (not to mention three engines). Wanna help?

I'll be looking forward to more cool info from you on here, and thanks again!

Gordon
 
You are welcome.

Do you remember the Caravelle that UA had painted white and parked it at Stapleton near the Frontier hangar? It sat there for years. I got a tour of it by a UA pilot(this was around 1974 or so). Talk about a strange plane. I wonder whatever happened to it.

The windows were triangular
The door rolled up into the ceiling like a garage door, all manual, no power assist.
The radios were all tube type and were in a huge radio rack behind the pilots but before the cockpit door. I'm willing to bet they threw off some serious heat.

Never got to fly on a Caravelle but I remember seeing UA's back in the mid 60's and they too were very, very loud on takeoff.
 
Allen -

No, I don't remember a Caravelle there. We got to Denver in 1977 and it took me maybe a year or more to start becoming really familiar with the airport. In 1980 when I started driving and we wanted an extra car around during the week, that's when I started visiting the airport almost weekly as my Mom would take my Dad to the airport on Monday or Tuesday morning, and I'd go get him Thursday or Friday afternoon, and we kept his company car during the week. I usually left really early to hang around and plane spot.

By then I don't think the Caravelle was still there, or if it was I missed it. BUT, I did get to see the Midwest Express Caravelles a few times when they arrived around 7-8pm, but only when one of Dad's flights was really late. They were even loud during taxi, and sounded quite different than the JT8D powered airplanes which were everywhere in Frontier's and Continental's concourses. Midwest Express was the carrier that eventually became or turned into Airborne Express. Imagine carrying packages in a Caravelle! The fleet of five were ex-United but had come from a European carrier which bought them from United a decade earlier.

I sure miss Stapleton - seems like a big waste of a good airport to have closed it. I would have loved to see that plane you saw. I did not know anything about tube radios in them, though that surely makes sense. Can't imagine trying to keep one flying today without major radio mods!
 
Thanks, Allen, for the memories!

My favorite was the Lockheed Electra. Flown by Air California back in the day. I really miss Air California (later Air Cal before they were swallowed whole by another company) as it was a friendly airline which always treated me well! Here is an Electra in Air California colors.

RCD

redcarpetdrew++11-12-2012-15-47-0.jpg
 
Whirlcool, thanks so much for the clarificaiton and personal experience information. You rock!
The 727 is still my favorite-looking aircraft. They have a beautiful profile in the sky and on the ground, and from what I understand were the most successful passenger aircraft for years.
 
I flew on a Caravelle once

It was in 1988, on Halloween, from Paris to Nantes in France. It also was the end of a long trip so the details are gone, but I do remember the triangular windows. Also that the seat back would fold down flat onto the seat bottom. Never did appreciate the value of that. Because All Saints' Day is a big holiday in France, the plane was full of unaccompanied minor children flying home for the holiday.

I'm not really an accomplished traveller as so many are seen to be in this thread. The first flight I ever took happened in 1968 from Detroit Metro airport to Bradley Field in New Haven, CT. The airline was Mohawk. The equipment was a British plane, a small jet with two engines in the rear, called a "BAC 111". The seats were not arranged in the face-forward grid pattern of every other plane I have ever seen, but were gathered in small clumps, like three facing forward back-to-back with three facing rearward, and a zigzag path to get around between them.

I think the most comfortable flights I ever took were in business class 747s on Asian national airlines like Singapore and Royal Thai. Once was on Korean Air, on the same number flight as the one which had been shot down by the Russians. I never got to fly on any newer Boeing aircraft than the 747.

Regarding the Super Constellation, I have no memory of it when it was in regular service. However some time in the last five years or so, I was parked in a spot I know adjacent to the Tucson airport watching planes while eating my lunch. A silver SuperConnie taxied out from someplace, ran the engines a while until they stopped smoking, and took off. I later found out that the plane I saw was Eisenhower's "Columbine" which had been moldering out here in the boneyard at Davis-Monthan AFB but had been rescued and restored enough to fly to someplace else for a real restoration.
 
I knew I had a picture taken somewhere of the Roush 727-100 on my computer at home. Here it is, in Charlotte, an original built for Frontier 727-191, flew later for Braniff and MGM Grand Air. Looking a little forgotten and forlorn in the old Airborne/DHL parking cargo building. A couple years ago it still had two engines. Notice the wood panel on one of the cockpit windows.

This would be my next restoration project if I could!

I may yet photograph this plane again this fall, as I am considering standing in my truck bed to get over the interference from the fence. I'm surprised someone hasn't stopped me already though!

kenmoreguy64++11-12-2012-19-09-5.jpg
 
My fav passenger plane was a turbo prop DC3 I flew on from Flores, Guatemala, to Guatemala City, in 1978. It took off from a dirt strip to the aroma of kerosene. At the time I was just glad to be getting out of there (I had come down with some sort of tropical depression while at Tikal) and didn't realize what a cool old plane it was until we were airborne and flying low over the jungle. The seats were clad in green vinyl, with stainless steel tubing framework, like the old SF Muni street and trolley cars. A very smooth, delightful ride, and it certainly beat the day-long bus ride over potholes as big as a VW bug on the way out.

If you ever get a chance to fly on one of those DC3's, DO IT.
 
I did have the opportunity to fly on a few DC-3's. The most recent was about 6 years ago. That one came from the Prairie Aviation Museum out of Illinois. Unfortunately they could not afford to operate the aircraft anymore and sold it to a company in Florida later on.

They were a lot of fun to fly in. I got to sit jumpseat in the last one. They really were the "first" modern airliner. At about the same time I met a former TWA flight attendant who started her career with TWA in the DC3 in 1935! Even though she was 93, she still was as sharp as a whip! The stories she could tell.

I also know a long retired DC3 pilot from Trans Texas Airways. He flew the DC3 for many years. He said all you needed to do was bring it in over the fence at about 80knts and hold your position and it'll almost land itself.

The thing I remember most about the DC3 was how loud and noisy the fuel pumps are while running the pre engine start checklist. They would be just buzzing away!

And since the DC3 was so light and flew so low it really was susceptible to wind gusts. And they weren't pressurized or air conditioned so on a hot summer Texas afternoon they could be really uncomfortable to fly in.

North Central airlines flew the DC3 up until they got their last Convair which would have been 1967 or so. They used them on all the milk run routes through the upper midwest. But they were long gone by the time I got there.

And on that link I posted earlier there are a few pilot stories about flying the DC3.
 
B-17

only multi-engine recip i have flown on was the B-17 "sentimental journey" operated by the"commemorative air force";in 2008 they were at the rapid city airport and giving rides for $600-decided to take a ride and got on the first flight of the day that included engine warm ups and individual run-ups of each engine.Was a beautiful day and great veiw of rapid city from the plexi nose of the old ww2 bomber!! In 1998,for a donation,i got to go into and look over a b 17-took lots of photos!
 
L-1011

Always a nice flight on Eastern Airlines. Only peculiar quirk was that the plane seemed to leave the runway at "different times" and land the same way. I had an early FL flight once. Rolled out of bed and into a friend's car and to the airfield. Sleepwalked onto the L-10 and fell asleep. Got up shortly before landing and went to the can to make myself look presentable. Busted-out a can of Aqua-Net and gave myself a blast. BLAAAAAAAAT. Flight attendant immediately banging on door, "Are you smoking in there??" Red-faced, I opened the door with my can of Aqua-Net ultra-hold in my hand, "I swear, it's just my hairspray!" She grabbed a magazine from the rack (remember THEM?) and fanned, "Aw, this happens all the time!". Worst was walking back to my seat with about 75 annoyed passengers staring at me.

Those 727's were the first jets for most of us of a certain age. Whirlcool? So modern, so fascinating with those rear engines, and so popular. My last flight on one was the short-lived Kiwi Air on a trip to FL. Our captain introduced herself as "Tracey" which prompted immediate looks among the passengers. After about 15 seconds everyone's nose was back in their newspapers, books or deck of cards. And was one of the smoothest flights I've ever had. Those wheels barely greased the runway when we landed at FTL. Thank you, Tracey.

Contrary to popular opinion, I flew on DC-10's a couple of times. Absolutely the most uncomfortable, noisy and passenger-unfriendly equipment I've ever experienced. It may have been fun for those of you in the cockpit, but it was "the back of the bus" for us in coach!

They stopped flying the Concorde. Foo. My last hope for visiting Europe (anxiety issues flying more than 3 hours). Unless I take a ship. Fat chance.
 
AT Hobby Airport here in Houston the Commemorative (formerly Confederate) Air Force totally rebuilt another B-17. It's just about finished now. I got to climb around in it while they were installing the new engines.

The first thing that I noticed was how small the inside was. It is CRAMPED! I barely fit through the walkway that goes down from the pilots seat to the bombers position. And there is a walkway (maybe 1 ft wide) that walks right over the bomb bay. I could imagine all the wind in there while walking from the front of the aircraft to the rear with the bomb bay open!
Another feature of the aircraft were plugs for flight crews heated suits. I saw one at each position. I believe the bomber crew had flight suits that were heated and once they were at their positions they "plugged in". Remember these aircraft flew 20,000ft up and they were not pressurized. All you had was an O2 mask. It can be -80F at those altitudes not to speak of the wind chill.

After sitting in the various seats in the B-17 I think that men were smaller back then than they are today.
 
The greatest airplane memories I have (I haven't been in an airplane since Jauary of 1998!) are from the first flights in Lockheed 1011 from Delta Airlines in 1981 and 1983. I was quite impressed and I remember making a quick visit to the pilot's cabin when I was 4!

I just learned recently that most of these airplanes were no longer in service!
 
Yup, the L-1011 is not in scheduled passenger service anywhere. I believe all that is left is a Flying Hospital somewhere and a few RAF units. Too bad, it was advertised as being "the most advanced plane in the skies" when it first came out, and it truly was.

The things that killed the L-1011 was this:

The Rolls Royce engines stopped being maintained and no more spare parts
were being built.

You couldn't easily convert it into a freighter like you could a DC10 or 727.

It was a complex aircraft with complex systems. Who wants to build spare parts
for a nearly 40 year old airliner when there aren't that many left.

In other words, it was all a matter of economics.

One thing I remember about the L-1011 was how spacious the flight deck was. The pilots sat at least 8 feet apart from one another. The flight deck was almost as large as some people's living rooms I've seen!
 
Forgot This:

Yeah, the BAC 1-11 is a REAL SCREAMER! Still flying in South Africa and there is one in TN, that does special flights (I'm sure someone will YouTube it).

The Vickers Viscount also comes to mind for me...

But yeah, the 727 really did mark some better days in the airlines, and regarding Flaps 40, I always thought it was Flaps 45 or 50. I know the DC-9's (Diesel Niners) had Flaps 50, but they were locked out for the same reason.

And if you think the MD-80 is loud, I beg this question: Did you EVER fly in a DC-9, 727, Early 737 (include the 300, 400 and 500 series) or some other older plane? LOL! They were popular, thats for sure.
I personally think the 737 Classics (300-500 series) were the best. Loud, howling engines, a beaut rumble inside at takeoff. I actually flew an SAS 737-600 in 2009 thinking it was a 500. I suppose I should've realised when the flap motors were quiet, and there wasn't significant howling from the CFM-56's at takeoff.

Here is something else: Airbus A320's are already being retired. I believe the A319's Northwest Airlines originally started getting in '01 to replace DC-9's are reaching the end of their useful lives, yet the DC-9's have gone almost 20 years sine the big NW Refurb program designed to preserve the DC-9s.
Air-France retired their late 80s A320-100's (Without WInglets, less range and difference in Flight-Decks) in 2009 or so.

Another Question: I wonder if ANY French people on here (if any) Ever flew the Dassault-Brequet Mercure, a 737-200 copy-cat with super cruise speeds that couldn't fly out of France. Just 12 built, and costly at that. A complete, utter FAILURE!
 
The flap settings for the 727-200 is: 5, 15, 25, 30 & 40. And that comes from the NW Airlines 727 Operations manual. And that's how I remember it.

My father flew the BAC-111 with Braniff. He liked it a lot. Did you know that you could land one on a golf course? They were rated for soft field landings. Another thing about the BAC-111, it had the coldest air conditioning system I had ever felt.
Sitting on the ramp in SHV on a 100F degree day with the main cabin door open the interior was still 65F. In some cases on a humid day you could see your breath in the air!
Also the BAC-111 was the first airliner to have a rudimentary auto fix system. If something went wrong you'd get a red flashing light on the panel to tell you what the problen is, then you'd have a green or yellow flashing light next to the control that needs to be used to correct the problem.

And of course there is the VC-10 as mentioned above. In the later BOAC colors one of the sexiest looking planes around. BOAC flew them ORD-YUL-LHR for a number or years.

Also as stated above, British jets were very loud. In fact when a BAC-111 or VC-10 would take off you could hear the "crackling" in the sound. Unfortunately that's why most BAC-111's aren't used anymore. They were too noisy. I believe that the BAC can be fitted with a hush kit, but I only ever saw one with that option.
 
BAC and hushkits

Yes, there is or was a hushkit available for the 111s. They were somewhat similar in appearace to the Fed-Ex hush kits for the higher powered JT8D 727s, with long extended exhaust ducts. They also have an exhaust gas mixer at the end.

There is an enthusiast's group which most recently chartered a DC-8-62 combi for a pax flight in California. Their previous charter had been out of Dallas Love in a BAC-111-400, in summer 2011 I believe. It had the "hush kits", though the plane is still loud. I think un-hushed 111s barely met stage II noise regulations. I'll look for a couple pics of a hushed example.
 
Favorites:

 

 

#1 Favorite is the L-1011 Tristar.  I love the old-school airliner sound they had in the cabin when cruising.

#2 The BAE 146.  Super quiet and every window offered a view.

#3 Early series DC-9.  For the memories of 2 and 3-stop champagne-infused hops to Mazatlan on Hughes Airwest in my youth.

 

Planes I wish I could have flown on:

 

More from Lockheed.  The Electra and Constellation.
 
No seasoned air traveler here...

...since you could probably count all the significant flights I've ever flown on 2 hands. My life-long friend Terry worked for Eastern for many years staying until the bitter end. When Terry started as a flight attendant, Eastern had a variety of planes but continued using the Lockheed Electra Turbo Prop for a number of years. Terry's low seniority often meant he worked on the old Electras but enjoyed it. I recall him saying the first-class section was in the rear of the plane.

When we were still young (long before he worked at Eastern) he and his family were vacationing in Lake Tahoe so I flew there from San Jose for a mini-vacation. I was excited since I think this was my very first plane ride and I felt like an international traveler big shot. The airline was Holiday, and their jingle was "Jet Away on Holiday to Tahoe." When my parents took me to the airport there was the "jet," a very dirty old propeller Electra. It smelled inside and most of the seats didn't match...different heights, different colors and a few had torn fabric. I took a window seat and looked out at the dirty wing. The engines were greasy and black and those screw things that operate the flaps were filthy too. Holiday Airlines didn't last very long. Terry's dad explained that they probably got away with calling the planes "jets" since they didn't have reciprocating/piston engines. The whole flight reminded me of an old Phyliss Diller skit "Tightwad Airlines"..."those thrift flights, they're not allowed to land at an airport...they don't really land they just lose altitude...they have none of the costly extras like landing gear."

I spent about 5 years collecting Eastern memorabilia as a gift for Terry. He died suddenly a few months ago after 55 years of frienship. Everytime I open my closet and see all that Eastern stuff I could just cry.

they must have just run this one through the car wash...I think I remember plywood on a couple of the windows

twintubdexter++11-13-2012-14-54-12.jpg
 
Holiday

Joe, I remember Holiday Airlines when they had a single airplane that would hold perhaps 10 passengers at most.  I also remember them graduating to an Electra, which was when most of the short-haul airlines were phasing them out, save for perhaps Air California.  I'm sure that rickety Electra you flew on was their only plane.

 

I don't know which happened first, but almost simultaneously Air California began flying their own Electras into Tahoe and Holiday folded.  Holiday may well have been an early casualty resulting from deregulation.
 
...you're right Ralph, I'll bet that was their only plane. My memory is going fast but I recall my ticket was stamped BDO...Back Door Only. and there were no stairs, just a rope ladder.

Maggie models a late 1950's Eastern Stewardess Beret. Inside it says "Eastern Golden Falcon Electra Service"

twintubdexter++11-13-2012-16-42-17.jpg
 
Since some have brought up beautiful airliners, here's one you don't hear much about: the de Havilland D.H. 91 Albatross.

 

Love the tapered fuselage and the way the engine cowlings are faired into the wings (may be mixing up aviation terms here.)

 

 

 

supersuds++11-13-2012-19-08-31.jpg
 
As a passenger I liked the L-1011 much better than the DC-10.  It seemed quieter and better arranged. I got to fly both on transatlantic flights. The first time was a DC-10 belonging to a defunct airline called British Caledonian. The L-1011 flights were on Delta, and I recall chatting with one of the stewardesses who was so glad she didn't have to fly the stretched Delta DC-8 anymore (was that the DC-8-50? Can't remember).  I used to see them at Hartsfield and thought they looked so much more elegant that the common 707.

 

I also go a couple of flights in the British Aircraft Corporation 111. Some discount operator called Air Florida. Neat plane but it was the only time I ever got airsick; it just seemed to jiggle jiggle jiggle all the way from Knoxville to Orlando. Coming back was fine so it probably wasn't the plane's fault.

 

Glad somebody mentioned the BAE 146. It is the only high wing jet I've ever been in and I had a great view of the Lycoming jet engines. Four of them on each plane! That must be why you never see them any more; the fuel consumption couldn't have been too good.

 

 
 
For the record

Here's a shot of a BAE 146.  Although much smaller, when viewed from the front they bear a striking resemblance to Lockheed's C-5 transporters.

 

I found this picture on a PSA history site, which provides interesting reading and tracks deployments of all PSA aircraft (apparently Holiday bought two Electras from them).  CR indicates a crash, as in the 727 mid-air collision over San Diego in 1978 and the Galaxy Airlines Electra out of Reno in 1985.  Here's the link:

http://www.psa-history.org/hangar/l188.php
rp2813++11-13-2012-19-52-8.jpg
 
I got an invitation to go on the BAC-111 flight, two hours around Dallas. They wanted $800.00 at the time. I thought a early morning flight up to the Airline History Museum and an evening flight back might be worth the money, but just to buzz Dallas I passed.

BTW, Leona Helmsley owned a BAC-111 as her personal private jet for a number of years.

From what I understand most BAC-111's have been flown to Nigeria where they were grounded. I have been told that there are a bunch of them all over the Lagos airport. I think one crashed and the government grounded the type. I thought they were very comfortable to fly in.
 
in the B-17

yeah,was kinda cramped in certain areas of the B17-cockpit area was about the size of a mid-30s chevy or ford car as i recall.One thing cool about the "sentimental journey"was the plane was mostly all ww2 era "period correct"-though some instruments were modern,most were original type with yellowish phosphor painted markings to glow under UV light.Original ww2 electronics and radios were in place too.When i toured the B17 in 1998 on the ground,i visited all the positions except the belly turret-that was off limits-crawled back to the tail gunner position too :)
 

Latest posts

Back
Top