peterh770
Well-known member
Correction: FN + STPP. Spellcheck didn't catch it... 
Fels Naptha
- Thread starter stan
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sudsmaster
Well-known member
Too much water softening agent/alkali is just as bad as too
Well, that might be true for precipitating washing soda, but even then the method of action (or reaction) is entirely different than having too hard water.
The harshest, strongest alkali in common use in home laundry is water glass, or sodium silicate. It's added to boost alkalinity and also to help "protect washer parts", presumably by inhibiting deposition of lime scale inside the washer.
Next up is washing soda or sodium carbonate. It's the most common ingredient of modern powders, especially since the relatively innocuous filler known as sodium sulfate has been reduced or removed from concentrated powders.
Complex phosphate or Sodium Tri Poly Phosphate is the most gentle of this trio, at least in terms of alkalinity. I've gotten my hands in a solution thereof, even taken a bath in the stuff, without any skin irritation (and I felt super clean thereafter ;-)...
It should also be noticed that STPP is also a quite common food additive, as it helps various foods retain moisture and texture (like dried fruits in cereal or packaged luncheon meats).
One article I read posited that STPP in the waste stream is actually environmentally beneficial since it can act as a buffer and counter the toxic effects of acid rain on ponds and streams.
Of course, there can always be too much of a good thing. However I'm not in total agreement that slippery water by itself means enough detergent has been added. The slipperyness simply indicates the level of alkalinity. It doesn't distinguish between precipitating and non-precipitating alkalinizers. It doesn't give any indication of the adequate level of other components, such as enzyme, free dye inhibitors, etc.
In my experience, a 30% mixture of STPP to Sears Ultra HE Plus works great if enough is added to result in a very small amount of suds. For some loads, that could be as little as 1 oz. For others, it could as much as 6 oz. It is a learning process, guided by results, not so much by theory or rules.
Detergent mfgs used to add 50% STPP to their laundry powders. Modern advice is that 30% is sufficient, and helps reduce the amount released into the environment.
Well, that might be true for precipitating washing soda, but even then the method of action (or reaction) is entirely different than having too hard water.
The harshest, strongest alkali in common use in home laundry is water glass, or sodium silicate. It's added to boost alkalinity and also to help "protect washer parts", presumably by inhibiting deposition of lime scale inside the washer.
Next up is washing soda or sodium carbonate. It's the most common ingredient of modern powders, especially since the relatively innocuous filler known as sodium sulfate has been reduced or removed from concentrated powders.
Complex phosphate or Sodium Tri Poly Phosphate is the most gentle of this trio, at least in terms of alkalinity. I've gotten my hands in a solution thereof, even taken a bath in the stuff, without any skin irritation (and I felt super clean thereafter ;-)...
It should also be noticed that STPP is also a quite common food additive, as it helps various foods retain moisture and texture (like dried fruits in cereal or packaged luncheon meats).
One article I read posited that STPP in the waste stream is actually environmentally beneficial since it can act as a buffer and counter the toxic effects of acid rain on ponds and streams.
Of course, there can always be too much of a good thing. However I'm not in total agreement that slippery water by itself means enough detergent has been added. The slipperyness simply indicates the level of alkalinity. It doesn't distinguish between precipitating and non-precipitating alkalinizers. It doesn't give any indication of the adequate level of other components, such as enzyme, free dye inhibitors, etc.
In my experience, a 30% mixture of STPP to Sears Ultra HE Plus works great if enough is added to result in a very small amount of suds. For some loads, that could be as little as 1 oz. For others, it could as much as 6 oz. It is a learning process, guided by results, not so much by theory or rules.
Detergent mfgs used to add 50% STPP to their laundry powders. Modern advice is that 30% is sufficient, and helps reduce the amount released into the environment.
launderess
Well-known member
Bathing With Phosphates
Well you would get great results wouldn't you? I mean women have been doing that for ages, it's called "Calgon" bath salts! *LOL*
Even before the various scented versions of Calgon designed just for milady's bath, vintage boxes of the stuff gave instructions for use in the bath, washing dishes (by hand), and so forth. Of course this was when Calgon powder was mainly a mixture of two phosphates, don't think I'd want to bathe in the new stuff sold in USA as it's mostly washing soda and no phosphates at all.
Water Slipperyness:
Perhaps wasn't clear, as it was meant one should only use enough water softening product to make the water slippery *before* adding soap or detergent. Another method given by some of my vintage laundry manuals calls for adding minimal amount of packaged water softening product to a jar of water, then adding a measure of soap. Jar is closed and shaken and then foam level measured. If there was not enough suds you played around with ratio of soap to water softener until things were where you needed them to be. Once this was done you wrote down the correct amounts and that was your "formula" for wash day.
Well you would get great results wouldn't you? I mean women have been doing that for ages, it's called "Calgon" bath salts! *LOL*
Even before the various scented versions of Calgon designed just for milady's bath, vintage boxes of the stuff gave instructions for use in the bath, washing dishes (by hand), and so forth. Of course this was when Calgon powder was mainly a mixture of two phosphates, don't think I'd want to bathe in the new stuff sold in USA as it's mostly washing soda and no phosphates at all.
Water Slipperyness:
Perhaps wasn't clear, as it was meant one should only use enough water softening product to make the water slippery *before* adding soap or detergent. Another method given by some of my vintage laundry manuals calls for adding minimal amount of packaged water softening product to a jar of water, then adding a measure of soap. Jar is closed and shaken and then foam level measured. If there was not enough suds you played around with ratio of soap to water softener until things were where you needed them to be. Once this was done you wrote down the correct amounts and that was your "formula" for wash day.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Well, I've taken the lazy way out...
Not out of bathing, but rather of dosing the Neptune.
I simply premix the Sears Ultra Plus HE with 30% by weight STPP. Then add enough to result in just a few suds. Like I said, this can vary a LOT depending on soil level and load size. A full load of work duds (which contain machine oils etc) can take 6 oz of the mix. A load of dress shirts, maybe 2 oz or less.
Other than having to mix large batches of the detergent-STPP mix from time to time, it's easier this way.
I didn't know that Calgon bath salts contained polyphosphates. I do know that the bath water, when dosed with just STPP, had a wonderful silky soft feel. Only did that once or twice, years ago, perhaps I'm due for a refresher ;-).
When I was using natural soap for laundry, I'd add an ounce or two of STPP to the dispenser, wait a little, then add the soap. I'd have to fuss with the amounts of soap to get the desired level of low suds. I suspect just washing bath towels with STPP and no soap would probably give adequate results as well.
Not out of bathing, but rather of dosing the Neptune.
I simply premix the Sears Ultra Plus HE with 30% by weight STPP. Then add enough to result in just a few suds. Like I said, this can vary a LOT depending on soil level and load size. A full load of work duds (which contain machine oils etc) can take 6 oz of the mix. A load of dress shirts, maybe 2 oz or less.
Other than having to mix large batches of the detergent-STPP mix from time to time, it's easier this way.
I didn't know that Calgon bath salts contained polyphosphates. I do know that the bath water, when dosed with just STPP, had a wonderful silky soft feel. Only did that once or twice, years ago, perhaps I'm due for a refresher ;-).
When I was using natural soap for laundry, I'd add an ounce or two of STPP to the dispenser, wait a little, then add the soap. I'd have to fuss with the amounts of soap to get the desired level of low suds. I suspect just washing bath towels with STPP and no soap would probably give adequate results as well.
launderess
Well-known member
Calgon Bath Beads And Phosphates
Ohhhh Yes!
Orginal Calgon (the product name is a play on it's function "calcium gone", and at first those sliver boxes were used for everything from laundry to bathing to general cleaning. Anything that involved water that one wished softened. Then some bright blub got the idea of adding scents and making a whole new product line of bath products. This made sense as then and perhaps now soap is the main thing persons use for bathing. Since baths were the main source of getting clean, anyone who has sat sitting in a tub of hard water and used soap knows how that goes....
Ohhhh Yes!
Orginal Calgon (the product name is a play on it's function "calcium gone", and at first those sliver boxes were used for everything from laundry to bathing to general cleaning. Anything that involved water that one wished softened. Then some bright blub got the idea of adding scents and making a whole new product line of bath products. This made sense as then and perhaps now soap is the main thing persons use for bathing. Since baths were the main source of getting clean, anyone who has sat sitting in a tub of hard water and used soap knows how that goes....
laundress
It sounds like your vintage laundry books are gems for sure! dabbling in organic chemistry LOL The titer of a fat is Really an indication of the amount of stearic acid contained therein. The titer, expressed in degrees Centigrade is the solidifacation point of the fatty acid of an oil or fat.
It sounds like your vintage laundry books are gems for sure! dabbling in organic chemistry LOL The titer of a fat is Really an indication of the amount of stearic acid contained therein. The titer, expressed in degrees Centigrade is the solidifacation point of the fatty acid of an oil or fat.
jim
Well-known member
TSP
Hi all. I happen to still have a small amount of TSP (Tri-sodium Phosphate) from years ago. I have used it in the past as a way to etch old paint before I repainted as well as thrown a teaspoon in the washer once in a very great while when there was something really FUBARed - like axel grease and the like on rags or clothing. It works great, and yes, I know it's not good for the environment.
My question is this: is there anywhere in the US where this chemical can still be purchased? I wouldn't mind haveing a small stash for the future.
Jim
Hi all. I happen to still have a small amount of TSP (Tri-sodium Phosphate) from years ago. I have used it in the past as a way to etch old paint before I repainted as well as thrown a teaspoon in the washer once in a very great while when there was something really FUBARed - like axel grease and the like on rags or clothing. It works great, and yes, I know it's not good for the environment.
My question is this: is there anywhere in the US where this chemical can still be purchased? I wouldn't mind haveing a small stash for the future.
Jim
Stpp
Hi Jim. I bought mine from SoapGoods.Com they sell it in a 1 lb jar, smallest amount I think you can get. Their phone # is 404-924-9080, I dont use it very often, and when I do, I dont see much of a difference, but still good to have on hand.
Hi Jim. I bought mine from SoapGoods.Com they sell it in a 1 lb jar, smallest amount I think you can get. Their phone # is 404-924-9080, I dont use it very often, and when I do, I dont see much of a difference, but still good to have on hand.
Corection
Sorry Jim I thought yo meant STPP! (different than TSP) TSP you should still be able to get in the paint store or ACE hardware! If you mean STPP then you could try Soapgoods, or The Chem Store, online or phone order
Sorry Jim I thought yo meant STPP! (different than TSP) TSP you should still be able to get in the paint store or ACE hardware! If you mean STPP then you could try Soapgoods, or The Chem Store, online or phone order
jim
Well-known member
TSP
Thank you stan - I'll look. The last time I was in an ACE hardware, I saw something like TSP but it wasn't the real deal. Some variant - maybe STPP - I'll check again.
Jim
Thank you stan - I'll look. The last time I was in an ACE hardware, I saw something like TSP but it wasn't the real deal. Some variant - maybe STPP - I'll check again.
Jim
Pharmacy
My mom used to buy TSP by the pound at the drugstore. She used it for washing walls. A janitorial supply or paint store are other places to try.
My mom used to buy TSP by the pound at the drugstore. She used it for washing walls. A janitorial supply or paint store are other places to try.
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