Fels Naptha

[launderess]

Fels Naptha Soap

Even without Napathalene, Naptha, or now Stoddard Solvent is one of the top ten laundry pre-treating/stain removal products on the United States market. Go figure.

IIRC, the number maybe even as high as the top five...

Vintage Fels has gotten out stains one thought weren't going to shift. Long as the spot responds to solvent based cleansers as opposed to tannin or blood, have something like a 99% sucess rate.

Have so much soap in my stash, really do need to either sell it or otherwise move it on! *LOL* Would only consider using the "white" soap (P&G white laundry bars) for unstained bed linens, and perhaps the Fels or Kirkman's Borax for the same or again not badly stained normal laundry. Oh have two vintage bars of Sunlight yellow soap that I need to use up as well.

Many persons advocating using that "soap" recipe do not realise the efforts that went into stain removal *before* things could go into the main wash when using soap.

Pure soaps will set tannin and some other stains, so things had to be treated before.

 

[sudsmaster]

A Winning Combination

STPP, grated Ivory bar soap, and hot soft to moderately soft water.

 

Works quite well, even in a front loader.

 

As I recall from my reading, Ivory bar soap is essentially all saponified fat: little to no residual glycerol or sodium hydroxide is left. In fact "natural" soap makers tout their products advantages as including residual glycerin, which Ivory soap lacks.

 

One drawback in a front loader is adjusting the soap amount to result in adequate cleaning while minimizing sudsing.

 

 

 

 

 

[launderess]

Savon de Marseille

Based laundry products are very popular in France. Le Chat soap chips and others can be found on store shelves, or persons simply mix up recipes from ages ago from grated savon. Still have always wondered how these soap mixtures worked with the main type of washer, H-Axis.

Since my Miele has a solid door cannot see inside during the wash, thus not able to judge suds level. Well not by sight, but the pump makes a god awful noise if air/froth gets down there. This is normally my cue to intervene as the machine lacks and automatic froth control system.

Ivory Soap & Glycerin:

Yes the stuff is missing and it explains why some consider Ivory soap drying when used for bathing or skin care.

 

[peterh770]

My understanding is that after a tangle with poison ivy, a good scrub down with Fels Naptha is the undoing of the noxious oil from the vine.

I use grated FN + TSPP in the Miele, but only in temps of 120 or greater and only after a very high level fill of the Delicate cycle. Dosing is a very dicey and very touchy proposition. Rarely do I get the correct dosing for a nice layer of suds -- usually it is either no suds or a complete whiteout.

 

[launderess]

Cannot understand how soap if used properly for laundry purposes can give good results in an H-axis washer. Surely the amount of froth created by using enough product would act as a cushion in the washing process.

Have a great old commercial dry cleaning/laundry manual from the 1930's that tells about "titre" soaps, making up various soap jellies, soap powders, and their use in pony washers (those large commercial H-axis washers that look like barrels laid sideways.

 

[peterh770]

If the drum rotation speed is correct, as it seems to be, there is enough lift-and-slap action despite the suds, providing that the suds are not extreme. I have had satisfactory results from my machine -- providing I get the correct combination. I would not attempt this with your windowless machine, Miss L.

 

[sudsmaster]

Cannot understand how soap

The key is to use an alkaline water softener in conjunction with soap.

 

 

In the pre-war days, that softener more likely than not was washing soda, or sodium carbonate. It acted as both a water softener and a break, which breaks soils loose from fabrics. Unfortunately it's a precipitating softener so it can leave deposits on the washer and on the laundry.

 

 

Along came STPP (not TSPP), or Sodium Tri Poly Phosphate. It is a non-precipitating water softener and is an excellent companion for grated or flaked soap. Soap scum formation will be limited if not eliminated, and there will be little to no deposits on the washer or laundry. However it doesn't seem to prevent an  eventual buildup on the soap on the fabric.

 

In my Neptune I have managed to dose the SSTPP (Soap Sodium Tri Poly Phosphate) formula so that a thin layer of suds results in most cases. I haven't yet tried it in the Mieles. Even with glass windows, it's more difficult to add more cleaning agent to a Miele than a Neptune, due to the Teutonic door lock philosophy. Also, the fill on my Mieles is cold only, so adding the detergent to the dispenser drawer would not be a great idea. I could add it on top of the load, before start. There still might be an issue in that the water is heated slowly throughout the wash cycle, so establishing proper dosing would have to wait until the water has heated enough to dissolve all the added soap. Since the Mieles reside in a workshop outside the main house, it's sort of a hassle.

 

 

 

[stan]

soap

If someone, or some company is making soap to bathe with, or its a complexion soap, then YES you`d want to retain the glycerin, and even possibly "superfat" the soap by adding a little more oil at the end of processing, or by doing a lye discount at the start! this would make the soap more conditioning to ones skin. This is WHY some "natural" soap makers would claim their soaps were better, not because they clean BVDs better. Laundry and dish "soaps" simply dont exsist anymore, not in their intended form! If you were to speak to a chemist at P&G and ask them if you could grade up a bar of Ivory, and get the same thing as the old version of Ivory Snow, the answer would be NO! You might be able to make it look the same!

Two of the "laundry" bars that are still produced today" Octagon All Purpose" and "Fels Naptha" are not made by their original makers, or have their birth ingredients, and carry more unsaponified fats than they originally had. Both now have detergent ingredients in them, that they did not before.
Is it true that modern Ivory bars have all the fats reacted, and all glycerin removed?? where did that information come from? I`d like to look that up.

 

[launderess]

@sudsmaster - Actually both the 1930's professional laundry manual, and my 1940's domestic laundry work book prefer sodium hexametaphosphate (polyphosphates) for dealing with hard water to other alkalis.

Failing phosphates the next choice would be borax then washing soda. Other agents include ammonia (not often used), slack lime, and soda ash.

Washing soda directions even going back to my laundry manuals from the 1800's is supposed to be diluted into solution with water, then added to the wash bath. Never added directly to the wash tub. Everyone agrees that washing soda used in excess is hard on textiles (not to mention hands if washing by that method), and excess use can lead to yellow spots or all over yellowing of laundry.

My 1930's commercial laundry manual was written by Norbert J. Berg, and is still in some ways considered a standard.

Advice for using phosphates or other alkalis for dealing with hard water is the same we have seen here in the group. Only use enough to make water "slippery". Too much water softening agent/alkali is just as bad as too hard water.

Soaps for laundry:

Most all commercial and domestic vintage laundry manuals in my collection written before 1940's all recommend soap over new fangled "detergents". The 1930 book by Mr. Berg gives an in depth chapter on various types of soaps: potassium,ammonium and or sodium hydroxide alkali based.

Various soaps had different purposes in the laundry, much having to do with what water temperature the wash bath would be, and how easily they rinsed in warm or cool water. It even speaks of my favourite "Savon de Marseille", which is vegetable oil based soap (makes a softer and more soluble soap that rinses easily at lower temps).

Before I mentioned "titer" when it comes to soaps. Again according to the book the solidifying point of the fatty acid used in making the soap determines it's titer.

Low-titer soaps are good for low temperatures, high titer soaps for high temperatures. The former are usually made from plam kernel, olive, cotonsee, coconut, maize, and soybean oils. Each of these oils will contain several different fatty acids, most all having low solidifying points.

High titer soaps are made from animal fats and or mixture of the same and vegetable oils. These soaps are for use in temperatures ranging from 160F to 212F.

While it is possible to use a high-titer soap in low temperature washes, it does not produce much froth, clean very well and is hard to rinse out of fabrics unless the water is at proper temperature. These soaps are the normal ones found on supermarket shelves back in the day for housewives in beads, flakes, bars, and powder forms.

Use of these high-titer soaps (be they made at home or store bought) explains all that use of hot or boiling water for washing and perhaps the first rinse housewives and others went through back in the day. If this wasn't done the result was soap residue in textiles.

For use in the wash, I follow the old French custom (and using a vintage recipe still used today), to make "savon liquide" from bars of Savon de Marseille. I use a carpenter's plane to scrape off thin sheets of any soap one wants to make into solution. On this side of the pond and in the UK housewives and laundries would have made the same or soap jelly.

Liquidied or gel soap is much eaiser to dose (even in with the Miele or other automatic washing machines), just open the dispenser drawer and pour whatever amount you wish, followed by a kettle of hot water to flush it down into the tub. However once you have determined the correct dose it is a simple matter of sending it down just as with any liquid detergent as the machine fills.

 

[launderess]

Soap Buildup In Textiles

What is missing from modern efforts with soap for laundry is the second step of boiling.

Contrary to popular belief soiled laundry wasn't boiled (unless fouled with vermin or coming from the sick-room), but rather laundry going into the boiling pot had already been soaked, soaped, scrubbed and so forth thus being quite clean.

Boiling served several purposes. It helped disinfect, removed soils and or some stains not shifted already, and by opening up the textile fibers via hot water soap and soil residue was released. Lifting the items out of the boiling pot and into what or where ever they would be rinsed left all that muck behind in the boiling pot.

Our own dear Toggles and others who often boil "clean" laundry that has come from a washing machine, only to find the water has turned yellow and such. That is all the residue and such left from detergent washing in modern machines.

 

[peterh770]

Correction: FN + STPP. Spellcheck didn't catch it...

 

[sudsmaster]

Too much water softening agent/alkali is just as bad as too

Well, that might be true for precipitating washing soda, but even then the method of action (or reaction) is entirely different than having too hard water.

The harshest, strongest alkali in common use in home laundry is water glass, or sodium silicate. It's added to boost alkalinity and also to help "protect washer parts", presumably by inhibiting deposition of lime scale inside the washer.

Next up is washing soda or sodium carbonate. It's the most common ingredient of modern powders, especially since the relatively innocuous filler known as sodium sulfate has been reduced or removed from concentrated powders.

Complex phosphate or Sodium Tri Poly Phosphate is the most gentle of this trio, at least in terms of alkalinity. I've gotten my hands in a solution thereof, even taken a bath in the stuff, without any skin irritation (and I felt super clean thereafter ;-)...

It should also be noticed that STPP is also a quite common food additive, as it helps various foods retain moisture and texture (like dried fruits in cereal or packaged luncheon meats).

One article I read posited that STPP in the waste stream is actually environmentally beneficial since it can act as a buffer and counter the toxic effects of acid rain on ponds and streams.

Of course, there can always be too much of a good thing. However I'm not in total agreement that slippery water by itself means enough detergent has been added. The slipperyness simply indicates the level of alkalinity. It doesn't distinguish between precipitating and non-precipitating alkalinizers. It doesn't give any indication of the adequate level of other components, such as enzyme, free dye inhibitors, etc.

In my experience, a 30% mixture of STPP to Sears Ultra HE Plus works great if enough is added to result in a very small amount of suds. For some loads, that could be as little as 1 oz. For others, it could as much as 6 oz. It is a learning process, guided by results, not so much by theory or rules.

Detergent mfgs used to add 50% STPP to their laundry powders. Modern advice is that 30% is sufficient, and helps reduce the amount released into the environment.

 

[launderess]

Bathing With Phosphates

Well you would get great results wouldn't you? I mean women have been doing that for ages, it's called "Calgon" bath salts! *LOL*

Even before the various scented versions of Calgon designed just for milady's bath, vintage boxes of the stuff gave instructions for use in the bath, washing dishes (by hand), and so forth. Of course this was when Calgon powder was mainly a mixture of two phosphates, don't think I'd want to bathe in the new stuff sold in USA as it's mostly washing soda and no phosphates at all.

Water Slipperyness:

Perhaps wasn't clear, as it was meant one should only use enough water softening product to make the water slippery *before* adding soap or detergent. Another method given by some of my vintage laundry manuals calls for adding minimal amount of packaged water softening product to a jar of water, then adding a measure of soap. Jar is closed and shaken and then foam level measured. If there was not enough suds you played around with ratio of soap to water softener until things were where you needed them to be. Once this was done you wrote down the correct amounts and that was your "formula" for wash day.

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, I've taken the lazy way out...

Not out of bathing, but rather of dosing the Neptune.

I simply premix the Sears Ultra Plus HE with 30% by weight STPP. Then add enough to result in just a few suds. Like I said, this can vary a LOT depending on soil level and load size. A full load of work duds (which contain machine oils etc) can take 6 oz of the mix. A load of dress shirts, maybe 2 oz or less.

Other than having to mix large batches of the detergent-STPP mix from time to time, it's easier this way.

I didn't know that Calgon bath salts contained polyphosphates. I do know that the bath water, when dosed with just STPP, had a wonderful silky soft feel. Only did that once or twice, years ago, perhaps I'm due for a refresher ;-).

When I was using natural soap for laundry, I'd add an ounce or two of STPP to the dispenser, wait a little, then add the soap. I'd have to fuss with the amounts of soap to get the desired level of low suds. I suspect just washing bath towels with STPP and no soap would probably give adequate results as well.

 

[launderess]

Calgon Bath Beads And Phosphates

Ohhhh Yes!

Orginal Calgon (the product name is a play on it's function "calcium gone", and at first those sliver boxes were used for everything from laundry to bathing to general cleaning. Anything that involved water that one wished softened. Then some bright blub got the idea of adding scents and making a whole new product line of bath products. This made sense as then and perhaps now soap is the main thing persons use for bathing. Since baths were the main source of getting clean, anyone who has sat sitting in a tub of hard water and used soap knows how that goes....

 

[stan]

laundress

It sounds like your vintage laundry books are gems for sure! dabbling in organic chemistry LOL The titer of a fat is Really an indication of the amount of stearic acid contained therein. The titer, expressed in degrees Centigrade is the solidifacation point of the fatty acid of an oil or fat.

 

[jim]

TSP

Hi all. I happen to still have a small amount of TSP (Tri-sodium Phosphate) from years ago. I have used it in the past as a way to etch old paint before I repainted as well as thrown a teaspoon in the washer once in a very great while when there was something really FUBARed - like axel grease and the like on rags or clothing. It works great, and yes, I know it's not good for the environment.
My question is this: is there anywhere in the US where this chemical can still be purchased? I wouldn't mind haveing a small stash for the future.

Jim

 

[stan]

Stpp

Hi Jim. I bought mine from SoapGoods.Com they sell it in a 1 lb jar, smallest amount I think you can get. Their phone # is 404-924-9080, I dont use it very often, and when I do, I dont see much of a difference, but still good to have on hand.

 

[stan]

Corection

Sorry Jim I thought yo meant STPP! (different than TSP) TSP you should still be able to get in the paint store or ACE hardware! If you mean STPP then you could try Soapgoods, or The Chem Store, online or phone order

 

[jim]

TSP

Thank you stan - I'll look. The last time I was in an ACE hardware, I saw something like TSP but it wasn't the real deal. Some variant - maybe STPP - I'll check again.

Jim