Fiat/Chrysler in trouble now
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vacerator
Well-known member
I heard this morning also.
They sure don't need that.
In any case, I hope they didn't do it intentionally. Every Navistar semi tractor Chrysler uses has compressed natural gas enhancement, so it isn't like they aren't trying. It almost doubles mileage and cuts emissions almost by half.
We have family who work for Chrysler and they need their good jobs. One is a senior designer, and one in skilled trades in robotics.
They sure don't need that.
In any case, I hope they didn't do it intentionally. Every Navistar semi tractor Chrysler uses has compressed natural gas enhancement, so it isn't like they aren't trying. It almost doubles mileage and cuts emissions almost by half.
We have family who work for Chrysler and they need their good jobs. One is a senior designer, and one in skilled trades in robotics.
Didn't do it intentionally? Yeah, okay....
Unintentional
Perhaps the text editor spellcheck inadvertently added those lines of code.
Yea that's it...
It is a damned shame that by the wonderful virtue of a very lean charge, you get high levels of nitrogen oxides. Also a shame that they are hard for a catalyst to clean up.
Wonder how many other makers of modern diesel engines are sweating bullets now?
Perhaps the text editor spellcheck inadvertently added those lines of code.
Yea that's it...
It is a damned shame that by the wonderful virtue of a very lean charge, you get high levels of nitrogen oxides. Also a shame that they are hard for a catalyst to clean up.
Wonder how many other makers of modern diesel engines are sweating bullets now?
Well, even if they are guilty, it's a lot less exposure than VW, since I don't think Chrysler currently has a diesel passenger cars, other than the Fiat stuff. Maybe. And the press release I saw said it was just the trucks under investigation.
Still, it will be interesting to see if and how if and why FCAU managed to game the emissions regs.
Still, it will be interesting to see if and how if and why FCAU managed to game the emissions regs.
firedome
Well-known member
diesels
from FCA only number 100k vs millions at VW
from FCA only number 100k vs millions at VW
vacerator
Well-known member
True Firedome,
I have yet to see one Grand Cherokee diesel around here, and Ram diesels are few in number.
Both engines are sourced from other manufacturers as well.
As for having the EPA, and or NHTSA out of regulations, I guess had cleaner air and safety been done voluntarily, there would have been no need for either. Say for example, had GM introduced the Corvair back in 1960 with the rear suspension the engineers originally designed for it. Instead, it wasn't until after a few deaths and serious injuries that it came to fruition in 1965.
That was intentional.
I guess we could petition and force people to car pool? Seriously now? It can work for those who work and live close together, but how many is that?
There are laws of averages. Good fuel economy also helps to not pollute, as does CNG on a diesel engine as well as petrol.
GM engineers fitted a 1973 Chevy Impala 350 V8 with stratified charge cylinder heads (like Honda's CVCC) and it got 35 m.p.g. but it deemed to expensive to produce. That may also have been intentional.
I have yet to see one Grand Cherokee diesel around here, and Ram diesels are few in number.
Both engines are sourced from other manufacturers as well.
As for having the EPA, and or NHTSA out of regulations, I guess had cleaner air and safety been done voluntarily, there would have been no need for either. Say for example, had GM introduced the Corvair back in 1960 with the rear suspension the engineers originally designed for it. Instead, it wasn't until after a few deaths and serious injuries that it came to fruition in 1965.
That was intentional.
I guess we could petition and force people to car pool? Seriously now? It can work for those who work and live close together, but how many is that?
There are laws of averages. Good fuel economy also helps to not pollute, as does CNG on a diesel engine as well as petrol.
GM engineers fitted a 1973 Chevy Impala 350 V8 with stratified charge cylinder heads (like Honda's CVCC) and it got 35 m.p.g. but it deemed to expensive to produce. That may also have been intentional.
firedome
Well-known member
actually...
the diesels in both Ram and Jeep are VM-Motori engines, a wholly owned subsidiary of FCA, and the largest diesel engine mfr in the world and highly respected: trains, ships, cars, you name it. Software was evidently the problem.
the diesels in both Ram and Jeep are VM-Motori engines, a wholly owned subsidiary of FCA, and the largest diesel engine mfr in the world and highly respected: trains, ships, cars, you name it. Software was evidently the problem.
In one news article I read that FCA is saying that the software in question was designed to protect the engine.
vacerator
Well-known member
Ah yes,
VM Motori is indeed Fiat. The former Ram diesel was a Cummins.
Our kids new Pacifica has a software issue as well. They can't adjust the clock, and the check engine light came on last week. The dealer service dept. has ordered a new sensor.
There is no point offering a diesel option if the software must default to a richer fuel mixture to protect the engine if it begins running hot under normal conditions.
Now, is it just possible, the EPA testing facility is allowing the engines to get too hot during the testing?
Back to the Pacifica- I don't know what they are doing about the dash display, but when they follow the manual, and enter into the set mode, it just says to repeat the process, and no further info. displays. The dealer did look at it.
VM Motori is indeed Fiat. The former Ram diesel was a Cummins.
Our kids new Pacifica has a software issue as well. They can't adjust the clock, and the check engine light came on last week. The dealer service dept. has ordered a new sensor.
There is no point offering a diesel option if the software must default to a richer fuel mixture to protect the engine if it begins running hot under normal conditions.
Now, is it just possible, the EPA testing facility is allowing the engines to get too hot during the testing?
Back to the Pacifica- I don't know what they are doing about the dash display, but when they follow the manual, and enter into the set mode, it just says to repeat the process, and no further info. displays. The dealer did look at it.
VM Motori used to be jointly owned with GM until 2013 when FCA bought them out. The big Ram still can be had with a Cummins 6.7L straight six engine. The VM Motori V6 is the EcoDiesel. Nissan now has a Cummins 5.0 V8 diesel option for their Titan pickup. I'm a diesel geek. They fascinate me. I've had three (tore down and rebuilt one) and would buy another one when my current one dies. I sometimes think all the negative diesel hoopla is just a ploy to keep selling gasoline because diesels are so much more efficient and use less fuel.
vacerator
Well-known member
Sure could be Greg,
even though diesel is a little more costly, and I don't think they pollute much worse because they do use less fuel.
An idling engine, as in an emission test will run hotter after a few minutes, and the catalyst also can over heat, triggering the software to enrich the fuel ratio, because a hot engine running too lean can burn the exhaust valves.
That is not normal daily operation.
Perhaps the FCA legal team will bring these points to the EPA's attention.
I'm not perfect, neither is the EPA, but they try.
For over a century they've also been trying to build a perfect motor vehicle. Still not there.
I think only one which runs purely on electricity generated by hydro electric would be the only perfect one, because it takes burning fossil fuel, or at least natural gas to generate electricity.
However, I don't know the ratio of a single internal combustion engines fuel consumption and emissions vs. a coal or gas power plant doing it for thousands of vehicles. It also takes plastics from petroleum and more fuel to make batteries. It may be the lesser of two evils to use electric cars, once the run time on a charge can be made more practical.
They seem to have drawn back on hydrogen fuel cell development for now.
It all comes down to money and profit margin for now. You can't make a profit from something the greater of the public can not afford.
even though diesel is a little more costly, and I don't think they pollute much worse because they do use less fuel.
An idling engine, as in an emission test will run hotter after a few minutes, and the catalyst also can over heat, triggering the software to enrich the fuel ratio, because a hot engine running too lean can burn the exhaust valves.
That is not normal daily operation.
Perhaps the FCA legal team will bring these points to the EPA's attention.
I'm not perfect, neither is the EPA, but they try.
For over a century they've also been trying to build a perfect motor vehicle. Still not there.
I think only one which runs purely on electricity generated by hydro electric would be the only perfect one, because it takes burning fossil fuel, or at least natural gas to generate electricity.
However, I don't know the ratio of a single internal combustion engines fuel consumption and emissions vs. a coal or gas power plant doing it for thousands of vehicles. It also takes plastics from petroleum and more fuel to make batteries. It may be the lesser of two evils to use electric cars, once the run time on a charge can be made more practical.
They seem to have drawn back on hydrogen fuel cell development for now.
It all comes down to money and profit margin for now. You can't make a profit from something the greater of the public can not afford.
mrb627
Well-known member
Actually...
Ram 1550 diesel = Fiat
Ram 2500 and above = Cummins
Malcolm
Ram 1550 diesel = Fiat
Ram 2500 and above = Cummins
Malcolm
As much as I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt to FCA, a diesel engine idling for several minutes is not out of the ordinary for every day driving. Such as getting stuck at a red light, getting stuck in a traffic jam, or just warming up the vehicle on a cold morning. And as I recall, it's been common practice for semi drivers to leave their engines idling when going in for a cup of coffee at a truck stop, because it can be (or used to be) too difficult to restart the motors after a brief pause. But maybe those engines were running richer anyway.
What about the blue stuff that Mercedes was using? The urea trick?
I thought maybe something was up with the few diesel cars I've seen on the road the past few years. Even some late models seem to be too smelly.
I understand diesel also emits too many particulates, which may not contribute to smog but can be a health concern. I don't know if the newer motors have addressed the particulate issue. In Oakland, the port has clamped down on idling trucks and ships. They have to shut off and plug into shore power. This, apparently has dramatically reduced particulates in the air of surrounding neighborhoods.
What about the blue stuff that Mercedes was using? The urea trick?
I thought maybe something was up with the few diesel cars I've seen on the road the past few years. Even some late models seem to be too smelly.
I understand diesel also emits too many particulates, which may not contribute to smog but can be a health concern. I don't know if the newer motors have addressed the particulate issue. In Oakland, the port has clamped down on idling trucks and ships. They have to shut off and plug into shore power. This, apparently has dramatically reduced particulates in the air of surrounding neighborhoods.
lordkenmore
Well-known member
I sometimes think all the negative diesel hoopla is just a ploy to keep selling gasoline because diesels are so much more efficient and use less fuel.
Not only do they use less fuel, but they also have a potential of having more fuel options than petroleum. I don't know if this is the case with current diesel engines, but older cars can apparently be quite successfully converted to run on cooking oil. (IIRC they still need "regular" diesel to start, but once running/warmed up, they can switch supplies.) We certainly can't have anything that might liberate us from petroleum industry. That would be unthinkable!
I'm not 100% sure of this, but I know that one transit company in my area uses CNG to run their busses. I am assuming the engines are standard diesel engines that were converted.
I, myself, have never owned a diesel, but the fuel savings are appealing... I knew someone who had a VW TDI that he loved, and he mentioned that he got fuel economy very much in line with one of the many hyped hybrids running about, but had a much nicer car in his opinion.
Not only do they use less fuel, but they also have a potential of having more fuel options than petroleum. I don't know if this is the case with current diesel engines, but older cars can apparently be quite successfully converted to run on cooking oil. (IIRC they still need "regular" diesel to start, but once running/warmed up, they can switch supplies.) We certainly can't have anything that might liberate us from petroleum industry. That would be unthinkable!
I'm not 100% sure of this, but I know that one transit company in my area uses CNG to run their busses. I am assuming the engines are standard diesel engines that were converted.
I, myself, have never owned a diesel, but the fuel savings are appealing... I knew someone who had a VW TDI that he loved, and he mentioned that he got fuel economy very much in line with one of the many hyped hybrids running about, but had a much nicer car in his opinion.
vacerator
Well-known member
Yes John,
the cng system is added to a regular diesel engine.
the cng system is added to a regular diesel engine.
VW is working on an electric version of its venerable microbus. The concept vehicle is quite lovely, has huge power (like over 300 HP) and can do 0-60 in something like five seconds. Plus it has nearly a 300 mile range on a full charge, and can recharge to 80% in 30 minutes on the right charger setup.
