Finish goes Phosphate-Free

[jt1985]

I noticed at work that all Finish detergents are now phosphate-free. I'm running out of the old formula. Has anybody tried the new formula?

 

[mrb627]

Hmmm..

Makes me wonder that laundry detergents went phosphate free and the wash bath times had to be extended to improve results.

Now, we begin seeing dishwasher detergents losing their phosphates while modern automatic dishwashers seem to be doubling or even tripling the length of their wash cycles too.

Malcolm

 

[surgilator_68]

It's awful

I have never had dirty dishes come out of my Power Clean except for this last box of Finish. When I looked at the phosphate content I was shocked. So far Cascade still has high phosphate content, which is what I now have. I guess when they change I'll be adding phosphates to the dishwasher too.

 

[~sudsshane]

Seventh Generation Powder.

I normally buy the Cascade Complete, All&1 Action Pacs. I have tried the Seventh Generation Powder, and it performed very well in my Bosch DW. For a phosphate free formula, I was very impressed.

 

[DADoES]

<blockquote>I guess when they change I'll be adding phosphates to the dishwasher too.</blockquote>I'm doing that now with WM GreatValue. It's working quite nicely. I haven't used Cascade in years, may fetch a box next opportunity ... except WM carries only a larger box than necessary for my needs and I don't go by the local chain grocery very often.

 

[mysteryclock]

I just bought a bunch of their Quantum Powerball pacs and they are still listed at 8.3% phosphorus here. Do you recall if those were showing up free there too? Are they clearly labeled as such?

Did Colorado just pass a no-phosphate law like one of the northwest states (Washington?) did?

 

[magic clean]

Effective

July 1 of this year, dishwasher detergents will be 0% phosphate.

 

[magic clean]

More insight

into this:

http://www.cleaning101.com/about/04-06-09.cfm

 

[foraloysius]

About 25 years too late to do something for the environment and totally unnecessary to do something for the environment now. Back then it was necessary in areas with standing water, but at this moment techniques are available to filter phosphates out of the waste water. If they are filtered out of the waste water it is one of the most environmental friendly chemicals for cleaning, more than Zeolites etc.

 

[sudsmaster]

Nice to hear you say that, Louis ;-)...

Not only are phosphates recoverable from the waste stream, but there is a world-wide phosphate shortage going on. Mined deposits are running out, apparently. China has, in response, put a halt to phosphate exports from its nation.

So it makes every bit of sense to recover as much phosphate as possible from the municipal waste stream. Additionally, even with phosphated laundry and dishwasher detergents, I've estimated that for an average family over 50% of the phosphates they send down the drain come from their own bodies - urine and feces, to be explicit.

Presumably the pseudo-environmentalists won't be demanding that we all go on phosphate-free diets (we would die in a matter of days)!

I'd also like to add that the ban on phosphates is something of a shell game. It allows operations to continue to pollute waterways with excess nitrogen, which is the MAJOR water pollution concern in the arid Southwest portion of the USA, not phosphates.

 

[kqkenmore]

I bought a bottle of Cascade with the power of Dawn it did not have phosphates and it was a disaster I ruined 2 pans the dishes did not come clean.I called p&g and they said that was it was the first in the Cascade line that was going to get rid of the phosphates but they would all be that way before July.P&G also said that the phosphates are what protect metals from damage in the dishwasher.So I need a lesson in how to add phosphates and where to get them from.Does anyone know if the ban is going to effect commercial products because you can get professional cascade and it was very good from what I remember. Carl

 

[~sudsshane]

Hi Carl~

Visit:www.thechemistrystore.com

They sell Sodium Tripolyphosphate, STPP. (Phosphates)

 

[appnut]

My question is (Laundress??) can we stockpiole what's still on the market and store it in air-tight ziploc type bags or containers and keep it fresh?

 

[foraloysius]

You're welcome Rich, I remember our discussions about this on Thathomesite. I still am in favor of not using phosphates in natural areas with standing water when the phosphates don't get filtered out of the waste water though. I remember too well what our waters looked like in the 70's.

 

[appnut]

Shane thanks for the info on 7th Generation Powder. I don't prerinse, my oatmeal bowls sit for up to 7 days sometimes, and I ain't about to start washing my dishes by hand!!!

And ya mean to tell me my health isn't very important when it comes to maintaining dishwashing cleaning standards in my home? ? Only for commercial dishwashing applications. I sk you all this. what about all the places that have forgone using dishware and now only use disposeable cutlery & "dishware"? I would think that would have a more negative impact on the environment. The hospital I work for uses only styrafoam and plastic not only in the patient rooms but also their cafeteria.

 

[gansky1]

My mother was starting to experience some trouble with the Great Value - WalMart detergent so now we're mixing phosphates in with the detergent for her as well. We bought a 1 gallon Rubbermaid pitcher with snap-close, sealed pour spout and mixed a large (75 oz.) box of Finish with a scant 1/2 cup of STPP. The 75 ounce box at Target had 3.2% phosphates, the only other one we found with phosphates was the Quantum tablets but those are ridiculously over-priced.

 

[mysteryclock]

As long as they work...

... I won't get too bent out of shape over the loss of phosphates. But they *have* to work -- no kibbles, no scum, and no frosty glasses!

I wonder if they can use zeolites as a builder like they do in laundry detergents nowadays (such as Persil)?

 

[qsd-dan]

So, how much STTP is required to to wash a load of dishes?

 

[sudsmaster]

If you estimate about 1/3 of the amount of dw detergent you usually add, that should do the trick.

So if you normally add 1 tbs of dw detergent, then add 1/3 tbs of sttp and 2/3 tbs dw detergent.

Or you could just add 1 tsp of stpp and 2 tsp of dw detergent.

Or you could premix it in bulk in that ratio and use whatever amount does the job the best.

 

[qsd-dan]

Cool, thanks!

 

[dj-gabriele]

Oh my!
I hope that change will only affect the American version of Finish!
The only phosphate free detergent I used for the dishwasher was Unilever's Svelto and it was pure cr*p!
Anyway, just to be sure I checked the packets I bought last time and they're still at least 6% of phosphorus!

 

[spoodles]

So what do you get as a substitute ingredient for phosphates then? Seeing as phosphates are a major ingredient in UK dishwasher detergent, how can they be substituted?

Here's a photo of the ingredients for UK Finish Quantum tablets, how does it compare to the US version?

 

[appnut]

I can see it now, we're all going to be having our European members buying and shipping to us their phosphated dishwasher detergents. The new AW.ORG black market and contraban.

 

[gansky1]

30% - that seems high, I've been mixing it at about 12-18%. We have soft water and I've found any higher concentration produces some foam in the wash and slows down the action considerably. Perhaps I pre-rinse too much? ;-)

The last time we went to buy phosphates - STPP in a quantity, the price had doubled. That was a year ago and a 50 pound bag had jumped to a little more than $100. 50lbs will last for a very long time when doled out in teaspoon size "servings" though. I gave a taste out to some family members at Thanksgiving so now that they're addicted, my consumption will likely increase in the next year or so. I'm sure I'm going to get calls on the dishwasher troubles, I may have to start packaging and selling it - I don't think it's banned in NE, yet.

The removal of phosphates is really going to case a mess for many people if my mother notices the difference almost immediately with softened water and very-pre-rinsed dishwasher loads. Yuk!

 

[dj-gabriele]

Pre-rinsing? No thanks, what's the point of having a dishwasher then? Anyway, should you need some European detergents, I'm up for the black market, just ask!

 

[sudsmaster]

Last time I did the calculations, 33% STPP by weight works out to about 8% phosphorus by weight, which is a typical amount for a factory phosphated dishwasher detergent.

 

[panthera]

Hard Water

in much of Europe has a very different meaning than what the lucky Americans consider to be 'hard'.

In Munich, for instance, water hardness varies enormously, depending on the source of water in any given part of the city. Where I live, we are off the bad end of the scale.

Phospates are no problem for water treatment plants which are designed to recover them. I just plain don't understand the hysteria. In 1970, yes. In 2010, no.

The bio-, eco- and 'organic' dishwasher detergents I have tried over the last 25 years were universally awful.

Funny, by the way, how pre-rinsing has never really been resolved. I don't pre-rinse anything - you end up using more water and energy than the dishwasher would in two cycles - but my brothers washes the dishes in soap first before loading the dishwasher.

 

[bobbyderegis]

Just guessing, but they must be changing over in New England also. My store brands are now suddenly phosphate-free. I stocked up. Does Chemistry store sell smaller quantities than 50 lbs.?
Bobby in Boston

 

[toggleswitch2]

Bobby:

12 lbs IIRC.

 

[bobbyderegis]

Tks Steve!
Bobby in Boston