Fireplaces

[lordkenmore]

Well, Panthera, even with all those systems, there might be issues of something leaking out when the door is opened to toss in wood... Of course, how much of a problem wood burning with any given system raises depends heavily on how its used, and the people in the environment.

 

The other minus I see with all those systems is that they sound like they need power to work...and so if the electricity goes bye-bye, I assume the wood burner won't work. It seems to me I've heard this as a minus for some systems like wood pellet stoves--it requires power to run.

 

Outside air supply for combustion is not news to me. No idea when it came to be, but I remember having conversations with the guy who used to maintain the place where I live. He was fired up (ha!) to install a wood stove here--which I'd have liked--but the problem is I live in a mobile home  [Gag. Shudder.]  But a problem we hit: it would have to be a cheap installation, and one of the big stumbling blocks to that was that wood stove had to be a special one with combustion air intake from the outside, which poses problems when used stove shopping. But stoves like that apparently just have an unforced air connection (a pipe leading outside, no blower) or so I gathered. Meanwhile, you could get any stove used--even one sitting in a ditch, rusting away--and toss it into a real house, and (as far as combustion air supply was concerned) no one would care, or so I gathered. The fire department, however, might not approve of a rusted-out stove on other grounds...

 

 

 

[lordkenmore]

Gas logs

It seems like a lot of people in my area are using gas fireplaces or gas logs now. I tried to help give away some firewood a decade ago, and I found zero takers. People I knew with fireplaces said they'd converted.  Not everyone, of course--stores still have (the last I knew) those paper wrapped fireplace logs, and I see bundles of overpriced firewood outside Fred Meyer every winter. So someone must still use real wood fireplaces.

 

I have to admit to some  dislike of gas logs and also some changes of thought--or at least a growing tolerance. I think I positively hated the idea, once. When my childhood home was sold, the buyer talked openly about whether gas logs would work in the fireplace. My mother and I both cringed at the idea--even though we'd never had the resources to service the chimney, we were die-hard "real" fireplace fans. (The electric logs I mentioned using earlier were OK--they  made the fireplace usable again, and were obviously 100% reversible. Indeed, one could in theory alternate between real wood fires (on special occasions like Christmas) and use the electric logs the rest of the time.

 

But I'm getting more tolerant of the idea, and can even imagine myself using a gas fireplace if I had one. I like the traditional wood...but as I get older, I guess I see the practical advantages of gas more and more. Wood is either a lot of work to chop, or a lot of expense (to buy wood), for what is (with most fireplaces) nothing more than decoration. Add to that the pain of cleaning out ashes...

 

And past this (at least part of which was hinted at above), one thing that is nice about gas is that it lights fast, and seems more practical for regular use. It's nice to think about building a big fire on a cold Saturday night. But those evenings when one might only have an hour or less to sit, relaxing, gas seems a lot more practical.

 

[panthera]

Well, fortunately, the draft is so strong

Even when we open a door to reload, there's so much suction not even ash comes out.

The outside air doesn't have to be forced, so that's no problem and the fireplace is conventional in loading and burning so that's no problem and I have 12 v. backup blowers in case the power goes down so that's no problem. I guess I'm paranoid, but it did seem one major reason to have a fireplace designed as the main heat source for a medium sized house.

It's a Canadian design and, as the comments here (and from friends back home in Germany) show, it's not a concept with which most people in Europe are familiar. I love it - such pretty fires, such pleasant and cheap warmth and a backup for times when the power does fail.

 

[lordkenmore]

Sounds like a good design you have, Panthera!

 

As commented before, I like the idea of heating with wood, but having the ability to watch the fire would be important. When I lived with a wood stove one winter, as I think I mentioned above, one thing I did NOT like about it was that the doors were solid metal. (That stove was probably chosen based entirely on practical issues. The people who built that house heated with wood only for many years, apparently. They may well have only cared about "free heat" and not at all about "romance of flickering flames.")

 

I remember reading some reprints of floor plans and building ideas devised by Gustav Stickley (Arts & Crafts/Mission era), and one thing I recall was a fireplace idea of making a fireplace that a metal firebox IIRC that could circulate hot air. Presumably, this would get more heating out of a fireplace, although the efficiency would be less than other systems (e.g., more or less sealed stove). One could apparently order a premade fireplace firefox (again IIRC). Fireplaces were a major part of Stickley design, and one assumes the more efficient fireplace was an earlier attempt at getting better efficiency and allowing people to enjoy the fire.

 

[lordkenmore]

A couple of other memories... As mentioned, when I was growing up, we had a fireplace that we used. That era was also an era of energy consciousness (due to oil crisis of the late 70s). I remember glass doors being a big thing, and a move my father had on his "someday" list. I think some colleague of his swore by them, and I think efficiency was one point made. I was sort of glad "someday" never happened--I liked the regular screen. Actually, I'd have liked a setup where there was no screen (although admittedly this results in safety issues. In that house, the hearth wasn't big enough--50s "ledge" design--to have the fireplace screen open for much longer than it took to add wood.

 

The other memory I have from that era were special grates that would recover more heat by using air tubes that surrounded the fire. IIRC, some were passive designs (no blower), but others had a blower. (The ones with a blower, one assumes, would work better.)

 

[askolover]

My parents have a Franklin stove with doors on the front that can be opened for "fireplace" burning. I would love to have a gas fireplace here now but just don't have a place to install it with my baby grand taking up half the living room. I guess I'll just have to stick to the ultimate in low maintenance fireplaces....put this on the big screen and turn off the lights.



http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDfjXj5EGqI

 

[vacerator]

long narrow

chimney, tunnel, mind?

 

[panthera]

Mike,

You're a naughty boy. You'll have the Imperial Queens reaching for their Geritol if you're not careful.

'Fraid the November elections have me thinking along slightly different lines - the winning voters are in a long, dark, narrow tunnel. At the end they see a light! Our Salvation, our Führer! Nope, just an onrushing freight train. I did mention it was a very narrow tunnel with no place to go, didn't I?

 

I was thankful for the fireplace this morning. Flame sensor on the furnace was dirty. Again. never fails at three in the afternoon, nope - always in the middle of the night and always when we're cruising down toward minus 0°F. Got it cleaned and working - but ordered a new one just in case. That's the third cleaning in just a short time. I think it's coming to the end of the road. Or, it's always been marginal.

 

 

 

[vacerator]

I am naughty aren't I?

Oh well, Wyoming is a beautifull state indeed! I can tell you are a well traveled survivor, an I am the eldest of five, so I had to be also.
One winter when I was a teen, I dug out half the neighborhood from a 19 inch snow storm. Seniors needed help.
One winter my car broke down on me when it was well below zero. The cooling fan motor separated and the fan sliced into the radiator. I was living alone in an apartment, and my friends were either working, or unavailable to help.
I hiked to the local auto parts supply, got a new radiator, and fan, and put it back together on the kitchen floor. I had to get to work the next day.

 

[lordkenmore]

Of course the furnace never breaks at 3 PM. Evil gremlins sit in the basement, checking the watch to see if it's the middle of the night, and then checking the outside temperature to see if it's cold enough to be a huge inconvenience if the furnace breaks!

 

I think it's more than a little scary the thought of the furnace breaking suddenly. At night, when one is home, is inconvenient. But what if the part acts up on a chilly weekend when one is out of town?

 

[lordkenmore]

Franklin stoves are an approach that interested me years back. Better efficiency than a fireplace (although supposedly not as good as sealed wood stove of that era), and the option of having it open to enjoy the fire. Although the value would only exist if one regularly used it as closed stove. Otherwise, one might as well just have an all-metal fireplace... (Or, of course, a stove with a window.)

 

[washman]

Not now

but back in Indiana, state of, we had a double wide that had one in the corner. It was mostly for show, you'd never dream of heating with it. We used it each winter mainly to burn up the piles of wood we'd cut in prior years when we heated with wood exclusively.

IIRC, it was in the family/tv room.

 

[vacerator]

Panthera,

and yes, I agree, but let's hope that train doesn't wreck in the tunnel again!

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

Bonus Pic's: Typical AW.org & P'nty Fan!!!!

Well, here are the only pics o' my fireplace that seemed to make it to my new computer & were probably taken w/ my new camera (the old one fell & broke two times: 1) daughter dropped it, spent $100+ to have it fixed 2) "Fat, Drunk & Stupid" took a selfie of himself being two, out of the three--retired it after that...) --and I had pulled them off of Facebook:

 

I have probably not burned a single log since then, back a great number of years--just too much work to clean the fireplace out (have a half-a-box o' starter logs & some kindling) and I don't care for the heat from the furnace to go up the chimney (it has a good damper, which is shut) nor for it to be by only heat source (it's in the den & I'm ready to nap & relax in the bedroom, though I'd just got up--well, almost two hours ago I took my daughter to school & my wife just left) either...

 

 

-- Dave

 

[vacerator]

Well anyone

can tell that drawing is an old belt drive Whirlpool. Ring toss on the toes?
Back in the old days, we had to pull pallets down the alleys from the trucks to the store stock room. In winter, my feet to got so soaked once, they were calling me cheesy feet.

 

[sudsmaster]

Two FP in this '41 home. The one in the living room is original, complete with massive painted mantel and smart looking narrow glazed brick fronting. I stuck a vintage insert I found on Craigslist in there - it barely fit but it managed. It keeps the room warm but not so much the rest of the house (it's single story).

 

The second story is in the remodeled (circa mid-70's I think) second bedroom turned into family room contiguous with kitchen area. It's got that distressed brick facing, including mantel, floor to ceiling. I put another old insert in that one - it's an interesting one, with articulated glass doors and a nice long squirrel cage blower. The more modern design seems to fit the fireplace design better than an older one might.

 

However, I haven't lit either one up in two winters now. Too busy, I guess, plus one must keep track of the "no burn days" in this area. But as soon as I clean up the clutter around them I'm planning on getting one or the other or both going for atmosphere. 

 

My favorite FP insert is the LOPI brand, but they can be a bit hard to find.

 

[davey7]

My fireplace provides no real heat (which is good with steam heat) and has excellent draw as I'm about halfway up my building, but it does provide great atmosphere on dreary days and at parties.

 

[gusherb]

Is this the building built in the late 20s? That radiator looks like it's at least from the 50s if not newer, looks more like a steel baseboard style unit with a tall cabinet (to produce a strong stack effect and pull more air through the convector) 

 

[verizonbear]

Ventless Gas Fireplace

I have a ventless gas fireplace in my basement bar area, works very well makes the basement warm and cozy, no issues with fumes, love it.

 

[lordkenmore]

Stumbled across this. Malm apparently still makes metal, freestanding fireplaces in the US. One offering:

 

http://www.malmfireplaces.com/lancer.html
 

Since it's all metal, it might have better heating value than a "standard" fireplace...although, of course, wood stoves would be much better.

 

[firedome]

thanks to PhilR

we just got this Drolet made-in-Northern Quebec (they really know their woodstoves up there!) woodstove: efficient, has glass doors for viewing the flames, and of course can be opened up for more ambience, if one has a good hearth and is willing to sacrifice some of the heat. But with 11 ac of mostly hardwoods, efficiency and cost of wood is not a huge factor!

We once lived in an 1852 all brick 3 story house with 7 fireplaces: Parlor, DR and 3 BRs for heating, cooking fireplaces in basement and kitchen, the latter 8 ft wide x 5 ft tall and 3 ft deep with a pot hanger. They all drew really well since they knew how to build them then, but were horribly inefficient at heating. Inside one wore a lot of warm woolen clothing during the winter because we depended mostly on the ancient and huge oil hot air furnace that did keep us very warm but guzzled oil at a truly amazing rate... hence our next house was new, well insulated, and had 90% efficient hydronic heat.

 

[sudsmaster]

I retrofitted both fireplaces in this house (1941) with inserts with blowers. I got both inserts for about $50 each off Craigslist. They are not hard to find; a lot of cities and counties around here require converting to gas if a major remodel is done to an existing home.

Both do fairly well at heating the rooms they are in (living room and family room). But the other rooms, not so much. Still, it's ample ambiance. One drawback are the frequent "no burn" days where wood fires are prohibited for air pollution reasons. Consequently I've accumulated quite a bit of firewood here, from just chopping down trees I planted here and there. This weekend a major rain storm is predicted so I could probably light up one or both fireplaces.

 

[lordkenmore]

a lot of cities and counties around here require converting to gas if a major remodel is done to an existing home. 

 

I'm not aware of any requirements like that in my area (Western WA) but then I don't know the ins and outs of current codes/policies for major remodels. But I have to wonder if wood burning fireplaces might not one day be banned or at least heavily regulated. (There are sometimes burn bans at times here when air quality is a concern.)

 

There is a ban on older wood stoves in the Tacoma area. IIRC it's illegal to even own a woodstove that's not a newer EPA certified design. (The demands removal or permanently disabling the stove.) The only exception is when the stove is the only heat source. That apparently requires special approval. Note this stove ban applies to any stove--not just a sitatuion where someone decides to do a major remodel. You have 1980 family room with stove and that stove is no longer usable, even if the room is 100% 1980 down to the light bulbs in the ceiling fixture. (That area of Tacoma was a huge headache for air quality, so that may be why the rules are so strict.)

 

[mayguy]

Back and forth..

I really cringe when people has ventless fireplace/heaters. WAY TOO MUCH trouble waiting to happen.. I am glad they are banned here tho.

We own a '68 split level home, and has two fireplaces upstairs in the living room, and one downstairs in the family room. They are both the basic brick fireplace, that has fire brick walls inside, and no vents, so really no heat comes out of it other then the radiant heat.

The dampers has seen better days, and fire bricks are starting to come out on the fireplace in the living room, and we no longer use that one. I got insulation in it when we dont' use it to cut down on the heat loss up the chimney.

We do use the fireplace downstairs time to time for the mood, power outage and I would love to use it for heat as I grew up using the fireplace for heat in the late 70's. *Later on got a wood burning furnace to heat the whole house.

The back and forth part, our chimney has seen better days as well, but it's needs attention before something does happen. we are agreeing on taking the fireplace upstairs out as we don't use it, and also eats up a lot of space that we can't lay out the living room around another way. As for the fireplace downstairs, Hubby wants a gas downstairs, and I want wood again.

His point, gas can flip on and off when needed. No hassle of starting it/carry in wood.

Mine, I always grew up with wood, and still love it.. A local place sells wood pretty cheap, so cutting not a big deal. Cleaning up the ash don't take that much work! I like the sound, smell, and look of a real fire, where gas is "always the same" and about every people I know, I hardly EVER see their gas fireplace going??? I do know a few other who has wood, and that's going. What if we used up all of our natural gas? What if we are with out gas in the winter? I think burning wood is better for our eco system.

 

[sudsmaster]

SF Bay Area Fireplace Regulations

In July of 2008, the Air District passed Regulation 6, Rule 3: Wood-Burning Devices to reduce fine particulate matter air pollution from wood smoke.

Don't Burn Wood during Winter Spare the Air Alerts
Under this regulation, it is illegal to burn wood, firelogs, pellets, or other solid fuels in your fireplace, woodstove, outdoor fire pit, or other wood-burning device on days for which the Air District issues a Winter Spare the Air Alert.
The Winter Spare the Air Alert season runs from November 1 through the end of February.

Check Before You Burn
Call 1-877-4NO-BURN
Check the Winter Spare the Air Alert status on the Spare the Air website home page and on www.baaqmd.gov.
Sign up for e-mail EnviroFlash AirAlert notifications.
Sign up for automatic phone call alerts online or by calling 1-800-430-1515.
Local radio and TV news media will also carry announcements.
Residents whose dwellings have no natural gas or electrical service, or whose only source of heat is provided by wood burning, are exempt from the Winter Spare the Air Alert wood-burning restriction.

Other Conditions of the Rule
Beginning November 1, 2016, no wood-burning devices are allowed in new buildings constructed in the Bay Area. Gas-fueled fireplaces and logs, gas inserts, and electrical fireplaces are okay. Prior to November 1, 2016, the only wood-burning devices allowed in new construction are EPA-certified wood-burning or pellet-fueled devices.
Beginning November 1, 2016, Bay Area residents who begin a chimney or fireplace remodeling project that costs over $15,000 and requires a building permit will only be allowed to install a gas-fueled, electric or EPA-certified device.
The rule also places year-round prohibitions on excessive chimney smoke and the burning of garbage, plastics, or other harmful materials in fireplaces and woodstoves. Residents and businesses should burn clean, dry wood in short, hot fires with plenty of air in order to reduce air pollution from smoky and inefficient fires.
Firewood suppliers are required to appropriately label their wood as “seasoned” or “unseasoned." Seasoned wood has a low moisture content and burns more cleanly than unseasoned wood. Here is the latest information about the labeling requirement.

Activities Not Prohibited
The rule does NOT (a) completely ban fireplaces and wood stoves or completely prohibit wood-burning in the Bay Area, or (b) require the replacement of existing fireplaces or wood stoves when a house is sold.
Here is more detailed information about how to comply with the Air District's wood-burning regulation.

Exemptions
There are some exemptions to the wood-burning ban during Winter Spare the Air Alerts. These are discussed in this Exemption Guidance Document.
Effective November 1, 2016, recent wood-burning rule amendments require anyone whose sole source of heat is a wood-burning device to utilize an EPA-certified or pellet-fueled device that is registered with the Air District for an exemption from the burn ban. An open hearth fireplace will no longer qualify for an exemption.
Fires for cooking are not prohibited during Winter Spare the Air Alerts, but we ask the public to be mindful of air quality, and recommend the use of gas and propane barbecues rather than wood or charcoal-fired cooking devices on these days.

http://www.sparetheair.org/stay-informed/particulate-matter/wood-smoke/regulation

 

[davey7]

Convector

GusHerb - oversized replacement convector. Original buried in the wall. I currently have NO radiators in my unit (anymore, removed the last one). Heating is all concealed steam convectors except in bathrooms where it is convective chase with large diameter steam riser and return. It's the Trane Concealed Heater system. My plan is to restore the original living room setup eventually, but there are too many more urgent projects in the way, wiring, etc.

 

[lordkenmore]

Interesting Craftsman (Gustav Stickley/Arts & Crafts era not Sears!) fireplace from early 20th century in a Craftsman publication that's on Archive.org. A prefab metal unit that could supply warm air to rooms other than the one the fireplace lived in. I wonder how well this fireplace worked... I wonder if many were sold, and how many of those might survive, too.

 

Link #1 is reasonably fast to open, but some pictures don't appear for me.

 

https://archive.org/stream/morecraftsmanho00sticgoog#page/n212/mode/2up
 

Link #2 for downloading the PDF. I found the pictures worked fine. (There is also a download PDF button on the page that link #1 opens).

 

https://archive.org/download/morecraftsmanho00sticgoog/morecraftsmanho00sticgoog.pdf
 

Fireplace is on PDF page 213 (page 198 on the page of the original publication itself).

 

[sudsmaster]

One fireplace insert design I really admire is the Lopi. They are generally convective and don't need electrical power to warm a living space. I've seen older ones that look fantastic after many years of use.

 

And they are still being made.

 

 

http://www.lopistoves.com/product-detail.aspx?model=301

 

[lordkenmore]

This weekend, I did some cleaning/rearranging of the living room, and now have my own fireplace! It was quite a project getting all those bricks, and building it. And I honestly thought that the floor might collapse at one point. (Later I learned most people have the fireplace foundation in the foundation area of the house. Live and learn, I guess.) LOL

 

OK...no bricks. No real fireplace, either. But I set up a set of electric logs I have with an Ikea Lack-style end table. It sort of looks like a possible modern fireplace. To my eyes, it's less awful looking than those $60 Home Depot electric fireplaces. Although I think the electric logs would probably look better in either a real fireplace, or else a well designed fake fireplace.

 

A couple of photos. One is well lit, and the other is in a dark room (and IIRC no flash) to show the glow of the "fire".

 

Still, it amuses me for the moment...

 

 

 

 

[mattl]

I have a "Fake" fireplace in my basement.  It looks real enough but no firebox.  For years there was a set of those fake logs with the rotating colored flame sleeve over a light bulb, not at all realistic, but passable for a rec room.  A few years ago I picked up what I think is one of the better units.  It's more like a projection screen - flat glass panel - that a fire like look is projected on.  It also has a built in heater to boot.  For a fake fire if the room is dimmed it looks fairly real, it really needs sound too, but it a big step up from the old fake logs.